(L) UQ Holder (Ken Akamatsu's new series)

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Are you talking about the Konoe sisters here? Because if that's the case, I think it's way to early to tell if they're clones, let alone if Negi is involved in their creation.

In that case I was still talking about Touta and his "sister". Given that Konoka and Setsuna are mortal, the path to their granddaughters is probably more mundane. Either completely mundane via unnamed male "donor" (hell of a job), straight up clones, or magically assisted fertilization of one by the other.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

A clone needs a zygote—a fertilized egg. That egg could have come from Setsuna, or Konoka, or any other sexually mature woman. Similarly the fertilizing sperm could have come from any sexually mature male. The "parents" of the zygote could be anybody, since the replacement of the genetic material makes the original genetic material completely irrelevant. However, said donors can't be sterile, and must be sexually mature, or else no zygote. Negi "can't have kids". Whether that means his semi-immortality leaves him stuck being sexually immature or it means his "ME demon" nature makes him effectively sterile as pertains to human women, it means he can't fertilize an egg, so his only possible contribution to a clone must come in the final donated genetic material.

And therein lies the rub. Is that final genetic material some manipulation of his own irreproductive genes? Are they a magically manipulated mish-mash of his own and those from another donor? Or donors?

My issue is not with who is the male parent, whether Negi or not, my issue is with the people who think Konoka got together with Setsuna and magic they had a kid together. So they can have some kind of pure yuri relationship.

I don't think Negi has to be involved, I am just pointing out that some people are under the notion or at least that appears to be the case, that with cloning a male is not involved, and as you pointed out you still need sperm from a man.

The magic route in my opinion is also thrown out the window, because to me just strictly from a realistic standpoint it would be easier to make someone who is sterile , fertile again then it would be for taking the male out the equation in human reproduction. So if magic could do the latter it could easily do the former, but no Negi is sterile, allegedly.

[Tenzen12]

From "strictly realistic* standpoint. Clonnings is feasable already... yet there is not much that can be done about infertility. Well that's science. Magic might have different limitations, but there is no point speaking about realism then.

I myself think, they just married guy/guys and their kids married each other and united bloodline.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

From "strictly realistic* standpoint. Clonnings is feasable already... yet there is not much that can be done about infertility. Well that's science. Magic might have different limitations, but there is no point speaking about realism then.

I myself think, they just married guy/guys and their kids married each other and united bloodline.

I feel like we are talking in circles. So I will try to explain it once more very slowly.

1. There is a group who don't like the notion of any man being involved, and just like to think they some how got together and had kids. Its the same nonsense when people want every female character in a work to be a virgin, some kind pureness crap.

2. If the suggestion is through cloning, which has been around for over a decade now, then yes its possible to/or will be possible to clone someone, but it still require contribution from both a man and woman. Hence using this method a man was involved and it ruins their dreams.

Fun factiod, although Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid is a clone of big boss, he actually has a Japanese "mother" who provided the egg that was used.

3. But wait a minute, Magic and stuff. This is where I was getting to my realistic/unrealistic argument. Yes, Magic exists in the Negima/UQ Holder universe, but it is not all powerful.

Their argument would be, well through magic, presto change and two women or two men can have kids just like that. Given the choice of curing sterilization or having two people of the same sex concieve a child without the other sex, the former would be viewed as the more likely to happen using technology.

So my point is if Magic can't cure infertility, it can't let two women conceive either. So that route is out the window.

4. In summary, somehow some male was involved for us to get the current konoe siblings.

That is all I am saying.

[winhlp32]

Originally Posted by Pierre

1. There is a group who don't like the notion of any man being involved, and just like to think they some how got together and had kids. Its the same nonsense when people want every female character in a work to be a virgin, some kind pureness crap.

Have you considered the possibility that there are some readers out there that just likes yuri? Besides, I highly doubt the purity-obsessed men-hating strawman you are beating in this thread for some reason would be the kind of person who reads Negima or UQ Holder anyway.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Pierre

The magic route in my opinion is also thrown out the window, because to me just strictly from a realistic standpoint it would be easier to make someone who is sterile , fertile again then it would be for taking the male out the equation in human reproduction. So if magic could do the latter it could easily do the former, but no Negi is sterile, allegedly.

It's magic. We don't know what it can and can't do until things happen. That's kinda the point of having magic in your story.

As for two women having a child together using magic somehow... I don't think that has been shown as impossible in the story. I'm not saying that Setsuna and Konoka had a child together. I'm just saying that you can't probe they can't.

I also don't think we know exactly how cloning works in the world of UQ Holder, or what exactly Touta is, and how Negi is involved with it.

[Idealist 99]

I just read the chapter and

Spoiler for spoiler:

Did the chapter introduce 4 new girl for Tota's harem ???

Also , Did Setsuna found a way to change her gender ????

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Idealist 99

I just read the chapter and

Spoiler for spoiler:

Did the chapter introduce 4 new girl for Tota's harem ???

No, obviously not, since Kitty is Touta's one and only true waifu, any other girl is just supporting female character.

[DragonOsman]

I'm sure Setsuna's still a girl. And I'm also not sure how cloning and fertility/infertility magic works or if even exists in this series. We'll have to wait and see on how Setsuna and Konoka have daughters all of a sudden.

And Touta didn't exactly get four more women . . . that old lady in the wheelchair is that shoutacon girl character (whose name I can't remember) from the class Negi taught in Mahora in the Negima manga. The proof is the Pactio Card she has (and it's also proof that Negi is still alive - if he were dead, the Pactio Card wouldn't even exist anymore). And she also loves Negi, as we should all know from Negima. I doubt she'll be paired up with Touta now.

Anyway, yeah, it's good thing that their training is done now, although it seems like Touta might have to do some additional training if he wants to be able to beat Fate. And also, hopefully, his reunion with present-day Eva will go well. I wonder how she'll react? Does remember the time from the Rift? I can't wait to find out.

Edit: One post late.
Fwar, Touta does still have at least three more potential girls who could fall for him, if we don't count that old woman in the wheelchair for reasons I already mentioned.

[Tenzen12]

Spoiler for for short:

Originally Posted by Pierre

I feel like we are talking in circles. So I will try to explain it once more very slowly.

1. There is a group who don't like the notion of any man being involved, and just like to think they some how got together and had kids. Its the same nonsense when people want every female character in a work to be a virgin, some kind pureness crap.

2. If the suggestion is through cloning, which has been around for over a decade now, then yes its possible to/or will be possible to clone someone, but it still require contribution from both a man and woman. Hence using this method a man was involved and it ruins their dreams.

Fun factiod, although Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid is a clone of big boss, he actually has a Japanese "mother" who provided the egg that was used.

3. But wait a minute, Magic and stuff. This is where I was getting to my realistic/unrealistic argument. Yes, Magic exists in the Negima/UQ Holder universe, but it is not all powerful.

Their argument would be, well through magic, presto change and two women or two men can have kids just like that. Given the choice of curing sterilization or having two people of the same sex concieve a child without the other sex, the former would be viewed as the more likely to happen using technology.

So my point is if Magic can't cure infertility, it can't let two women conceive either. So that route is out the window.

4. In summary, somehow some male was involved for us to get the current konoe siblings.

That is all I am saying.

Actually you don't know much clonning. You don't need any male cells for it. That's the fact.

[DragonOsman]

For making test-tube babies, you do actually need male and female sex cells. You have fertilize them and make a fetus. Cloning can be that, too.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

I'm sure Setsuna's still a girl. And I'm also not sure how cloning and fertility/infertility magic works or if even exists in this series. We'll have to wait and see on how Setsuna and Konoka have daughters all of a sudden.

And Touta didn't exactly get four more women . . . that old lady in the wheelchair is that shoutacon girl character (whose name I can't remember) from the class Negi taught in Mahora in the Negima manga. The proof is the Pactio Card she has (and it's also proof that Negi is still alive - if he were dead, the Pactio Card wouldn't even exist anymore). And she also loves Negi, as we should all know from Negima. I doubt she'll be paired up with Touta now.

Anyway, yeah, it's good thing that their training is done now, although it seems like Touta might have to do some additional training if he wants to be able to beat Fate. And also, hopefully, his reunion with present-day Eva will go well. I wonder how she'll react? Does remember the time from the Rift? I can't wait to find out.

Edit: One post late.
Fwar, Touta does still have at least three more potential girls who could fall for him, if we don't count that old woman in the wheelchair for reasons I already mentioned.

Well, I believe everyone realize Ayaka the moment they saw their pactio thus no one think she will become Touta's love potential, they're talking about other girls.

About three other girls you mentioned, I don't deny the possibility they can really fall for him, but, one of them has a chance to become a dude, or most likely, remains genderless, another is more like a close friend than a lover, the final one's been disappeared for quite a long time already. Furthermore, with the recent act about Kitty's tragic past, I'm convinced Touta will have to try his all to cure her heart thus have no room for any other girl, and even with that, nothing guarantees it will be enough. I honestly can't imagine Kitty finally achieve her happiness through all harsh trials just to have to share her destined man with another girl, I honestly can't.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Spoiler for for short:

Actually you don't know much clonning. You don't need any male cells for it. That's the fact.

Quite true. Cloning in it's strictly literal definition is taking the genetic material from a single parent and creating a genetically identical offspring. A donner egg may be used but all genetic information is removed. What Pierre is talking about is artificial insemination which does require two parents and currently they would be male and female. In theory it is possible to create a zygote using 2 members of the same sex but it requires a lot more gene manipulations and females could not produce a male with out adjusting their genes since they do not have any y Chromosomes.

[Tenzen12]

Exactly. While artificial insemination does use similiar methodology it's not same as cloning.

Also thanks for elaboration why would be difficult to o use former with two members of same gender.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

For making test-tube babies, you do actually need male and female sex cells. You have fertilize them and make a fetus. Cloning can be that, too.

Just as Kagato said, there is a fine line between cloning and artificial insemination, while it's true that there are usage of both male and female involved because to create the Zygote, it certainly not because it is the only possible way when it came to cloning. It's simply easier to do it like that, and theory wise, like Kagato state again, it's perfectly fine to create a clone using solely 1 mother or 1 father genes but it required a lot more work, and in case of the mother, it's impossible to produced a child that is male.

[DragonOsman]

@Fwarlord: I'm talking about three out of the four new female characters just introduced when I say that they might fall for Touta. I'm not including older characters like the genderless Kuroumaru when I say that. And yeah, it's pretty obvious that, like you said, Touta really only has eyes for Eva. She's the one he loves, and I also doubt she'd want to share him with any other girl. But I wonder if she still has feelings for Negi and/or Nagi. Isn't it possible to fall in love more than once? I just hope Ayaka doesn't fall for Touta because it'd just be really disgusting. She's a shoutacon, that's true, but who's ever heard of an old lady like her falling in love with a kid Touta's age?

Anyways,
@Dragon1412: Yeah, point taken. Then cloning should be possible with one parent only, although it'd always result in a child with the same gender as the parent.

But we don't really know how Setsuna's and Konoka's children were born. Was it through cloning or was it through artificial insemination? We'll have to wait and see.

[Tenzen12]

We don't even know they had children together in first place. There is always possibility of one or two guys involved.

In first place Japan allows registered unions between partner of same sex, but not actual marriage. So if they married in same year it either was with male or there was some major change in legislation.

[DragonOsman]

Actually, in the Negima manga Epilogue, I recall it being mentioned that Setsuna and Konoka got married to each other. It's quite possible that their children are a result of cloning rather than artificial insemination. If they married each other, it also means they may have preferred for there to not be a guy involved at all. Either that or Negi's somehow involved (artificial insemination or something else).

And I just thought of this, but if those two descendants of Konoka and Setsuna are their granddaughters, then they're probably either Touta's cousins or his sisters, too.

[Tenzen12]

All that was said, is they married in same year. Them marrying each other was just speculation that was neither confirmed nor disproved.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

In first place Japan allows registered unions between partner of same sex, but not actual marriage. So if they married in same year it either was with male or there was some major change in legislation.

What does real-life Japan's legislation have to do with anything? This is fiction, and I seem to remember they weren't in Japan at the time anyway.

And I'm not saying they married each other, but it is the most likely possibility, and I don't think there's any strong evidence against it.