Romance in Code Geass (Take 3)

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

I don't see much positive reinforcement from Lelouch that isn't either unintentional or simply using her as part of her plans, which would be Turns 12 and 4, respectively. Not to mention season 1, which is almost entirely negative since he and Kallen keep getting into misunderstandings. Kallen's reinforcement is more subtle, but I'd call risking his whole damn army and breaking character in front of a room full of people pretty damn positive.

To capture Nunally...convenient...also why didn't Lulu bring up Kallen at the bargaining table during their talk at the shrine?...It's...ambiguous? It's like saving Kallen is something he has to do on the way to pick up his laundry.

Whereas Lulu is taking great pains to prolong Shirley's crush.

[dec4rhapsody]

Compared to the infamous example of Macross F, IMO, CG never really established a so-called love triangle/quadrangle....Any one interested in taking a critical approach in terms of romance in CG?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

To capture Nunally...convenient...also why didn't Lulu bring up Kallen at the bargaining table during their talk at the shrine?...It's...ambiguous?

More like it's you holding up a double standard, touting Shirley as unambiguous despite inflating everything in regards to her then claiming everything that happens to Kallen must be ambiguous. As for Kallen, rescuing her in Turn 10-11 had nothing to do with Nunnally. You have your episodes mixed up. Kallen would have been saved one way or another by 18 so bargaining for her release would be pointless, as well as asking too much of a man already in a compromising position.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

More like it's you holding up a double standard, touting Shirley as unambiguous despite inflating everything in regards to her then claiming everything that happens to Kallen must be ambiguous. As for Kallen, rescuing her in Turn 10-11 had nothing to do with Nunnally. You have your episodes mixed up. Kallen would have been saved one way or another by 18 so bargaining for her release would be pointless, as well as asking too much of a man already in a compromising position.

Double standards are the life stream of this thread

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by yvj

Double standards are the life stream of this thread

Ain't that the truth.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

More like it's you holding up a double standard, touting Shirley as unambiguous despite inflating everything in regards to her then claiming everything that happens to Kallen must be ambiguous. As for Kallen, rescuing her in Turn 10-11 had nothing to do with Nunnally. You have your episodes mixed up. Kallen would have been saved one way or another by 18 so bargaining for her release would be pointless, as well as asking too much of a man already in a compromising position.

Well I guess then that the ambiguousness of Lelouch reciprocating Shirley's feelings is....ambiguous? I'm just saying, to me it makes more sense and closer to truth than the other shippings based on evidence and plot reasons. It's like seeing a fire one foot away. I can see it, feel it, smell it, know why it's there but for some reason I can't bring it over to you to show you it's real.

[Sol Falling]

Shirlulu's kiss is just awesome atmospherically. Rain. Cold. Darkness. The contrast of the bright, packed, opera house, where they should have been that very moment. Accessories discarded, skin pressed against skin. Wetness. Cold. Warmth.

What is running through their minds? Shirley: "I want Lelouch. Even though my father died, that is all I care about." Lelouch: "I want Shirley. Even though I killed her father, that is all I care about." Stealthy. Guilt-stained. 'Nothing exists but you'. They are lost in each other's world.

It is a mutual, consensual kiss. They are on the same wavelength. Compare with Lelouch and Kallen's: "Who are you? What am I to you?" "Goodbye." Compare with Lelouch and C.C.'s: "I need to seal your memories." "wtf." What's my argument here? Shirlulu's kiss was awsome.

[Rising Dragon]

Morbofist, I'd just like to point out that what you see as a "double standard" is actually Sports mocking everyone's claims of ambiguity.

Sol, I'd +rep you for that post, but I still need to dole more out before I can rep you again. >___>

[dec4rhapsody]

I'm todally confused by now...Why does Lelouch possibly showing some romantic interest towards Kallen go against the fact(?) that he had reciprocrated Shirley's feelings to some extent?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

What's my argument here? Shirlulu's kiss was awsome.

At least this much I can agree with.

[Jaime Kordek]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Morbofist, I'd just like to point out that what you see as a "double standard" is actually Sports mocking everyone's claims of ambiguity.

Sol, I'd +rep you for that post, but I still need to dole more out before I can rep you again. >___>

Don't worry, I did it.

I don't necessarily agree with the assessments of their thoughts, but I laughed out loud, so... I don't necessarily think that Lelouch was thinking about how he wanted Shirley there, he felt a combination of guilt, and wanting to comfort his friend. He would've been kind of a heel to use that moment as a relationship starter, sort of taking advantage of her moment of weakness. Also, I totally see parallels between this scene and the later one between Kallen and Lelouch, when he asks her to comfort him.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

I'm todally confused by now...Why does Lelouch possibly showing some romantic interest towards Kallen go against the fact(?) that he had reciprocrated Shirley's feelings to some extent?

Well I'm just saying, Shirlulu has been having romantic connotations from it from day one and he let it happen which I think is as close as a confirmation as you can get IMO. Where as Cluclu and Kalulu well, they said their piece but no sign of reciprocation on the type of caring about them in that kind of level. It's absence of proof to me. Well you can argue that shit got in the way and maybe your right which puts it in ambiguity but it's still absence of proof. But I think Shirlulu got the most confirmation IMO. Maybe he loved the two of them as well? Who knows. But I like to think that he definitely loved Shirley. IMHO.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by Jaime Kordek

Don't worry, I did it.

I don't necessarily agree with the assessments of their thoughts, but I laughed out loud, so... I don't necessarily think that Lelouch was thinking about how he wanted Shirley there, he felt a combination of guilt, and wanting to comfort his friend. He would've been kind of a heel to use that moment as a relationship starter, sort of taking advantage of her moment of weakness. Also, I totally see parallels between this scene and the later one between Kallen and Lelouch, when he asks her to comfort him.

hm, maybe that could have happen. I wish we had a close up of his face too see a one second "let me think about this" expression to get confirmation if it was just a pity kiss. All I saw was him going for the kill though. But yea...I see where you're coming from.

[Asleep]

Originally Posted by Jaime Kordek

Don't worry, I did it.

I don't necessarily agree with the assessments of their thoughts, but I laughed out loud, so... I don't necessarily think that Lelouch was thinking about how he wanted Shirley there, he felt a combination of guilt, and wanting to comfort his friend. He would've been kind of a heel to use that moment as a relationship starter, sort of taking advantage of her moment of weakness. Also, I totally see parallels between this scene and the later one between Kallen and Lelouch, when he asks her to comfort him.

When Lelouch tried to kiss Kallen in episode 7, he wanted to use her because she was a woman; when Shirley kisses him in the first season she was devastated and wanted to fall on the person she loved, to comfort her. Completely different. Any girl would have been alright for Lulu in 2x07. Remember he says something like "As a woman there are things only you can do...why don't you comfort me..." He was treating her like a prostitute. Lelouch was disgusting when he tried to kiss Kallen in the way he did, and I was really glad she slapped him.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Don't remember that line. What episode? As for switching hats, exactly how was he to refuse her in that situation? It's not in his character to essentially go, "Sorry babe, not risking it." He may do that without her knowledge, but certainly not to her face. Same with the "make you love me" quote. Lelouch may not want to involve her, but he's not the type to crush her like that.

Stage 14, Lelouch said "If reincarnation exists, let's..." The line was completed in the commentary on that scene in the DVD Magazine special.

Anyway, it is in Lelouch's character to crush people for their safety: his geass to Shirley in Stage 14; his lie to Kallen in Turn 19; both to Nunally in Turn 25. Well, as for that last one, practically the whole of Zero Requiem was him crushing people for their own good. To her face or not is irrelevant; actually, it's more in Lelouch's style to crush people by villainizing himself publically. But that really leads to my point: I do agree that it wasn't in Lelouch's character to refuse Shirley in that situation. After what she had said, Lelouch had (emotionally) no choice but to (genuinely) give in to her.

Originally Posted by yvj

Obviously I meant romantic love.

Lelouch demonstrated many times that he cared for people. For any number of those instances, that 'care' could have been 'romantic love', even if Lelouch never said that explicitly. The point is to analyze those scenes to determine what kind of care it was.

You said, Lelouch has never confessed/showed obvious love. This might as well apply for platonic love in a number of instances. Lelouch sacrificed his plan when Kallen was captured. Lelouch leapt off a (several-hundred-story high) building to save Shirley. Does Lelouch 'confess' he did these things out of friendship? Does he 'show' 'obvious' platonic affection? No. Taking this attitude, I could say Lelouch has never confessed/showed 'obvious' friendship with Shirley, C.C., Kallen, Rivalz, Milly, Nina, Nunally, Euphemia, Suzaku etc. I could produce a similar list of other characters for other types of 'care'. That's why your statement demonstrates an arbitrary divide between romantic and other types of love.

When did he say no to anyone?

Miya. First example which comes to mind.

I don't remember this line but I'll take your word for it.

And add it to the rest of the ambiguity.

Taking my word for it point blank isn't the best way to go about things. Given that you have, however, what's so ambiguous about it? The "let's be lovers" clearly indicates a desire to be together romantically. It can't be interpreted any other way. There is no comparably strong statement for the other pairings. What's ambiguous?

[Jaime Kordek]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

hm, maybe that could have happen. I wish we had a close up of his face too see a one second "let me think about this" expression to get confirmation if it was just a pity kiss. All I saw was him going for the kill though. But yea...I see where you're coming from.

I don't know if I'd call it just a pity kiss, but it seemed like their relationship hadn't really progressed to that point yet. I think Lelouch knew that if he turned away there, it would hurt Shirley terribly, and he truly does care for her, but there's a reason nothing came from that kiss, and it's not just her being mindwiped.

[Jaime Kordek]

Originally Posted by Asleep

When Lelouch tried to kiss Kallen in episode 7, he wanted to use her because she was a woman; when Shirley kisses him in the first season she was devastated and wanted to fall on the person she loved, to comfort her. Completely different. Any girl would have been alright for Lulu in 2x07. Remember he says something like "As a woman there are things only you can do...why don't you comfort me..." He was treating her like a prostitute. Lelouch was disgusting when he tried to kiss Kallen in the way he did, and I was really glad she slapped him.

But see, a slapping was exactly what he needed. Just like a kiss was what Shirley needed. He needed a person he trusted to help him get it together. Also, yeah, he was being a total ass there.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by Jaime Kordek

I don't know if I'd call it just a pity kiss, but it seemed like their relationship hadn't really progressed to that point yet. I think Lelouch knew that if he turned away there, it would hurt Shirley terribly, and he truly does care for her, but there's a reason nothing came from that kiss, and it's not just her being mindwiped.

Well yeah it's Lelouch, he has stuff to do. Can't be concerned about love at that moment. But I think he thought it was nice having someone love him and even he himself thought that maybe he loved her back....a feeling difficult to explain but I think clearly different than friendliness....it's a strange bond yet overlooked due to their lifestyles but too strong none the less to be anything less than friendship but seems to be more than friendship. I think if they lived in more peaceful times tho. Also she did promise herself that she'd make him fall in love with her so I hope she at least accomplished that after she died. I mean, Lulu did go "Nunally just got freyaed" insane after her death. It'd be too cruel for the writers to make Lelouch not fall in love with her.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

I mean, Lulu did go "Nunally just got freyaed" insane after her death.

He was actually fairly rational about his massacre in her name. There wasn't anything insane about it. Someone was going to pay. His attitude with Nunnally was one of denial and depression.

[Shadowcatch]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He was actually fairly rational about his massacre in her name. There wasn't anything insane about it. Someone was going to pay. His attitude with Nunnally was one of denial and depression.

Eh whatever, good riddance. I never did like Nunnally.