Lucky Star (Generic Discussion thread)

[AVPlaya]

Originally Posted by Claies

Somebody please remind me...how is the school name in Lucky Star written? I know it sounds the same but is probably written differently.

You mean the kanji names? Both name and sounds are different though.

The Kona-chan and Kagami-sama's school is called 陵桜学園高校 (RyouOu Gakuen HS), while the real life school its based on is called 春日部共栄高校 (Katsukabe KyoEi High School). The reading is not the same but kinda similar.

Some interesting info:

Katsukabe KyoEi is part of the Kyoei private school system. Its origin is the more famous KyoEi Gakuen HS (共栄学園) in Tokyo, which spawn the Katsukabe HS, MS, and Kindergarden, and a couple of private universities.

The original Kyoei Gakuen has a much better websites too, which even has a page featuring their uniforms. Look at the Middle School girls' uniform:



I would guess that Yoshimizu-sensei basically took the name and the middle school uni of their cousin school and combined with his own actual HS to come up with Kona-chan's RyouOu HS. Both HS girls uniforms are the same boring vest-over-shirt conservative look. I guess middle school girls are allowed to wear the cute sailor fuku, but not the high school girls. KyoEi Gakuen High School uniforms:

[AVPlaya]

Let's talk about something else here...

Anyone else wonder why the girls become friends and have seemingly no other friends in school? It's like all four of them are shunned by the other girls. I have some theories:

Kona-chan: She's the otaku. Not only it she not a normal fujoshi-type, she's actually into the male otaku stuff. She'll gets shunned even by her own kinds, so it's no wonder she has very few friends before the gang of four. People avoid otaku like the plague in Japan... most believe it's almost a mental illness. This view is changing but I still don't think an openly-otaku girls would get many friends in school; no matter how athletic she may be. Maybe lolicon guys would secretly admire her, but she's too un-moe and masculine. She can easily kick any boy's butt. No one aside but a select few would even want to know her, yet she's has this very close clique where she's the queen.

On a related note: there seemed to be more girls into male-otaku properties in the West than in Japan. For example, most Haruhi Dancers in the Western otaku-dom are actually girls, while in Japan they're mostly crossplayers. Are there actually girls like Konata in Japan? I remember Akiba as being a male paradise, and the girls there are either there unwillingly or working as maido cosplayers. I would think that a girl like Konata woud keep her hobby a secret, instead of blurbing about miko or maido labu labu in public.

Kagami-sama: A tsundere who like to bug people about their business. Usually girls like that are actually popular in classrooms; they usually become class reps (is Kagami a rep? She seemed to have some sort of official duties). Why is she shunned/estranged in her classroom so much that people don't even call her by her last name? Cus she liked Light Novel and knows an awful lot about otaku-things? (how many ordinary girls can ID the To Heart uniform by sight?) Maybe she's a fujoshi in training (as we see in EP12) who find companionship only with likes of Konata? (but Kona-chan isn't into BL.. she's more into Haruhi Cosplay-Rape doujin) There's something deeper going on about Kagami-sama's lack of popularity and maybe we'll find out more later.

Tsukasa: She's a boke like Osaka - bad at school and every day life, lazy, loves cooking and looking cute doing it all. Perfect future house-wife material. In my experience these type of girls are popular as followers - girls who tails the popular girls to make them look good. Why isn't she part of a larger clique I have no idea. She's a Japanese stereotype a lot of guys and gal loves.. many girls pretend to be this kind of girl to get attention from boys. Many boys swear to their parents they'll only marry this type of girls. Tsukasa should get an average of one love letter a day, but she doesn't.

Miyuki - She's pretty, smart, cute, tall, and curvy. A dream girl to most guys. Yes she maybe too dumb to notice guys professing love, but she's nice enough that everyone would like to get to know her. Yet she hangs out only with the girls. It's possible for girls like that to be secretly hated though; popular girls usually hate girls who stand out like this, and boy she stands out. Japanese cliques like averages... no one stand out to make the others feel bad. I would say that most other girls repect her and use keigo when addressing her, but most likely won't invite her to karaoke. Guys more likely just want to date her. It make sense that she felt more at home with a bunch of outcasts rather than hanging out with the larger class cliques. Sometimes you can bee too pretty and too nice.

So why are the Hiiragi sisters hanging out with Kona and Miyuki all the time and have seemingly no other close friends? They SHOULD be very popular. Perhaps they're supposed to be plain-looking (anime shows nothing about a girl's attractiveness - they all looked the same)? But being plain is not a problem as long as you're not extremly odd or ugly. They're not. In fact in Japan you get more love letters being a bit above average than actually pretty. So why are they member of a little clique of loners? Why do they hang out with Kona, the strange girl everyone loves to hate?

I do have a theory though.. outside of the fact that Kagami may only feel close to other fujoshi's, the other girls may have subconsciously shunned the sisters due to one very simple reason - they are real life mikos. Their dad is the local Shinto Priest and the girls perform sacred and secretive rites. To the average Japanese these people have supernatural powers... and some maybe superstious enough not wanting to be too close to them. I did ask around and there are views like that about mikos; people tend not to get too friendly with them. It's a bit of stretch but I can't find any other good reason.

What do you guys think?

[Vexx]

AVPlaya: my theory on Kagami is that for her, its the same as Mei in Manabi Straight. Hardworking girl with high standards who's prickly --- the class votes her class rep and then exits stage right to leave her doing the work alone. She's pretty hetero but her assertiveness stands out in a culture that still has a 1950s mentality about women to a large degree.

Tsukasa might be what you say... but she has the Dragon Queen as her twin sister ..... so the guys stay away.

Miyuki... yeah, too pretty for the bell curve and the guys assume that someone else is dating her (or that she's been arranged already since she's from a wealthy family and they're just middle-class types).

Hmmm, I wouldn't put too much energy on the miko angle... its a bit spooky to some and a bit attractive to others. I see kj1980 is reading the thread... I'm sure he'll have some "inside the palace" perspectives

[Claies]

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

Kona-chan: She's the otaku. Not only it she not a normal fujoshi-type, she's actually into the male otaku stuff. She'll gets shunned even by her own kinds, so it's no wonder she has very few friends before the gang of four. People avoid otaku like the plague in Japan... most believe it's almost a mental illness. This view is changing but I still don't think an openly-otaku girls would get many friends in school; no matter how athletic she may be. Maybe lolicon guys would secretly admire her, but she's too un-moe and masculine. She can easily kick any boy's butt. No one aside but a select few would even want to know her, yet she's has this very close clique where she's the queen.

She also has a very high tolerance for self-depreciation and embarrassment. Not exactly the kind people want to be directly near in case she pulls something painfully attention-grabbing.

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

On a related note: there seemed to be more girls into male-otaku properties in the West than in Japan. For example, most Haruhi Dancers in the Western otaku-dom are actually girls, while in Japan they're mostly crossplayers.

I know one such girl in my high school, except her behavior resembles more Kagami's tsun-tsun (yes, she also has a dere-dere side that profoundly creeps me out) than Kona.

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

Kagami-sama: A tsundere who like to bug people about their business. Usually girls like that are actually popular in classrooms; they usually become class reps (is Kagami a rep? She seemed to have some sort of official duties). Why is she shunned/estranged in her classroom so much that people don't even call her by her last name? Cus she liked Light Novel and knows an awful lot about otaku-things? (how many ordinary girls can ID the To Heart uniform by sight?) Maybe she's a fujoshi in training (as we see in EP12) who find companionship only with likes of Konata? (but Kona-chan isn't into BL.. she's more into Haruhi Cosplay-Rape doujin) There's something deeper going on about Kagami-sama's lack of popularity and maybe we'll find out more later.

She's indeed a class rep. I think it's exactly her butting into everyone's business and proper (even prissy) criticism to every kind of fault she sees in people. As it broke down, her friends consist of Tsukasa, who's her twin sister, Miyuki, who's a nice person anyway, and Konata, who can consistently tolerate her criticism.

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

Tsukasa: She's a boke like Osaka - bad at school and every day life, lazy, loves cooking and looking cute doing it all. Perfect future house-wife material. In my experience these type of girls are popular as followers - girls who tails the popular girls to make them look good. Why isn't she part of a larger clique I have no idea. She's a Japanese stereotype a lot of guys and gal loves.. many girls pretend to be this kind of girl to get attention from boys. Many boys swear to their parents they'll only marry this type of girls. Tsukasa should get an average of one love letter a day, but she doesn't.

Based on the way reputation works, she probably inherited some of her sister's bad rep, although it would be obvious to most people that they simply aren't alike. But wait...there's also Konata, who she hangs out with probably too much, which also soils her rep quite a bit. But maybe...people should find her even more attractive personality-wise in that she can withstand Konata and not end up being like her at the same time.

I wonder if Tsukasa feels the slightest bit of enmity for being associated with her sister. I know of one girl in my class (we just graduated) whose younger sister (who should now be a sophomore) quite blatantly avoids her in campus. She could be calling her name and she won't even look back, continuing her loud conversation with her own friends. The two hang out in completely different cliques, though I can't figure out which one the younger sister associates with.

(You nailed the theory with Miyuki, so I won't comment.)

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

Why do they hang out with Kona, the strange girl everyone loves to hate?

Because Kona, while outwardly very eccentric, understands people very well. Traditionally, the clique and the outcast regions despise each other with a deep passion. The other three girls are in neither area, but instead at the very fine fringe line between clique and outcast, and they find their place very uncomfortable, as both sides keep them as a "maybe" on their lists, which might as well be a "no." The outcasts don't include them because they have the traits of a popular person, but the popular people don't really like them because they're too damn perfect...PLUS the fact that they hang out with Kona, a girl at the complete opposite side of the social spectrum.

Kona understands what they feel perfectly, because she's quite used to being completely shunned, and they talk to her precisely because of that.

All being said, your theory lacks one complete side. A person's reputation includes not only one's personality, but who one hangs out with. The three, not having a place to go, finds that the only person willing enough to consistently talk to them is Konata, although doing so pretty much ends all hope they have for going back to the popular groups.

[AVPlaya]

Originally Posted by Vexx

AVPlaya: my theory on Kagami is that for her, its the same as Mei in Manabi Straight. Hardworking girl with high standards who's prickly --- the class votes her class rep and then exits stage right to leave her doing the work alone. She's pretty hetero but her assertiveness stands out in a culture that still has a 1950s mentality about women to a large degree.

Well but that kind of girls are every where in Japan now. Guys may not find assertive girls marriage-worthy, but they sure are popular with other girls. Many, many girls hang out with tough girls for protection from guys and some even fall in love with them... a psudo-teen lesbian phase which many girls grew out from. Many guys secretly love tsunderes... that why they're so hot with the otaku crowd. Have you seen dorama "Aneko?" Tough Tsunderes are saviors to other girls... they are sometimes the most popular person in school. Japan's not as close minded about women as some of us gaijin would like to believe.

[AVPlaya]

Originally Posted by Claies

All being said, your theory lacks one complete side. A person's reputation includes not only one's personality, but who one hangs out with. The three, not having a place to go, finds that the only person willing enough to consistently talk to them is Konata, although doing so pretty much ends all hope they have for going back to the popular groups.

You make some very good points from an insider point of view.

I just find Kagami's lack of popularity strange, since girls who are into other people business are indeed saught after by other girls to help resovle issue. If she's the class rep she was voted into the position - it takes a certain kind of popular reputation to pull that off. Plus from what little we've seen her own class treat her, she's not being shunned, but respected. If Kagami has a bad rep that your theory about Tsukasa may work, but since she's the class rep I just don't know why she not the center of a clique.

Tsukasa MAY have rubb some bad rep out of her closeness with Kona.. even herself is not used to be group with Kona by her own sister. She still think Otakus are strange. But gosh, guys should still falls for this type of girls like a fly no matter who she hangs with. Doesn't make sense at all.

I'm beginning to think it's more Kagami's own issue - she's the one shunning others, not others shunning her. If she wants to she would have become a popular leader of a clique, but instead she like to go shopping for light novel at Animate with Kona the professional Otaku. She's a closet fujoshi through and through... desperately seeking her way out of the mainstream, methinks.

[Claies]

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

You make some very good points from an insider point of view.

I just find Kagami's lack of popularity strange, since girls who are into other people business are indeed saught after by other girls to help resovle issue. If she's the class rep she was voted into the position - it takes a certain kind of popular reputation to pull that off. Plus from what little we've seen her own class treat her, she's not being shunned, but respected. If Kagami has a bad rep that your theory about Tsukasa may work, but since she's the class rep I just don't know why she not the center of a clique.

Tsukasa MAY have rubb some bad rep out of her closeness with Kona.. even herself is not used to be group with Kona by her own sister. She still think Otakus are strange. But gosh, guys should still falls for this type of girls like a fly no matter who she hangs with. Doesn't make sense at all.

I'm beginning to think it's more Kagami's own issue - she's the one shunning others, not others shunning her. If she wants to she would have become a popular leader of a clique, but instead she like to go shopping for light novel at Animate with Kona the professional Otaku. She's a closet fujoshi through and through... desperately seeking her way out of the mainstream, methinks.

Case in point: Mei Etoh of Gakuen Utopia Manabi Straight! (seriously...that show gives this personality so much insight) was elected class rep for two reasons: 1) Nobody in her class was willing to run, and 2) She is known as a very capable person and everyone basically dominoed into voting for her because the class needs to fill this position that nobody wants. She's not that popular...but she fills the whole capability category that's traditionally demanded of a class rep. You don't really want to talk to her, but if you have to brainstorm for anyone who can do anything, she is it.

And yes, you are right that Kagami has that rather sticky perfectionist personality issue. I readily associate with her personality-wise. About me...just list everything about Kagami. I do think I look pretty freaking scary when it comes to dere-dere.

[AVPlaya]

Originally Posted by Claies

Case in point: Mei Etoh of Gakuen Utopia Manabi Straight! (seriously...that show gives this personality so much insight) was elected class rep for two reasons: 1) Nobody in her class was willing to run, and 2) She is known as a very capable person and everyone basically dominoed into voting for her because the class needs to fill this position that nobody wants. She's not that popular...but she fills the whole capability category that's traditionally demanded of a class rep. You don't really want to talk to her, but if you have to brainstorm for anyone who can do anything, she is it.

And yes, you are right that Kagami has that rather sticky perfectionist personality issue. I readily associate with her personality-wise. About me...just list everything about Kagami. I do think I look pretty freaking scary when it comes to dere-dere.

Hmm, I guess for in some cases that's how class rep came about.. but normally it's the girl everyone trust enough to get things done. Class rep, as you know, do a LOT of things in Japanese schools. Everything from classroom cleaning schedule to cultural festival planning; a bad class rep and really make the wholel class look bad. I just don't think Kagami got her class rep job in that fashion though... I honestly believe that most if not all of her class liked and respected her. She's the one pushing them away, being so picky and all.

Tsunderes have the best personality IMHO... They're caring, loyal, self-sufficient, and loving without melodrama. A tsundere as a friend is a friend forever. I love trunderes so much I went out looking for one and married her. Normally guys are scared of tsunderes but they're really too dumb to know what they're missing. They all go for the cute, dumb type they can easily bed. What a shame.

[nanafan]

i like all the theories on how all the girls met. i have been wondering about that too. maybe kagami is avoided because as someone said before she is a perfectionist, tsukasa might be left out because of her sis. and most people think that konata is just plan wierd and over the top. guys might avoid miyuki because she's rich or she's too pretty. i wonder if that makes sense. dumb question but what's a tsundere?

[AVPlaya]

Originally Posted by nanafan

dumb question but what's a tsundere?

Watch Lucky Channel for EP#10. Shiraishi has a pretty good take on Tsundere.

Basically is a girl who's "tsun tusn" or tough/strong on the outside, and "dere dere" or loving/caring on the inside. They usually appear as angry, opinionated, and maybe even a bit violent, but deep inside they're very shy, caring and usually have a huge soft spot for cute things. Shiraishi thinks the term originally meant a character who was tsun tsun and then became dere dere, but I tend to believe that tsundere is someone who has a tough shell but a soft center, like the popular definition.

Kagami-sama, Haruhi, and Saber from FS/N are all fine examples of a Tsundere'ko.

[Risaa]

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

Tsunderes have the best personality IMHO... They're caring, loyal, self-sufficient, and loving without melodrama. A tsundere as a friend is a friend forever. I love trunderes so much I went out looking for one and married her. Normally guys are scared of tsunderes but they're really too dumb to know what they're missing.

...Gave me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. I'm mixed on tsundere characters. I generally like them, but to what degree depends more on their personality. They all have a tough exterior and a soft interior, but react differently in different situations. I find Kagami to be the cutest tsundere I've ever laughed at, whereas I didn't find Haruhi cute in the least. Physically, yes, but she's a lot more dominating than Kagami, who is more fair about things (Kagami cuts even cake portions; Haruhi would be mine-mine-mine and would cut herself the largest portion). What I like most about Kagami is that she's so darn poke-able (I imagine Haruhi would have sort of a "fuck you" attitude if you poked her, but then would come back and beat the crap out of you). Kagami's easy to poke, and she gets blushy and insecure. So adorable.

As for why the girls don't have any other friends... I admit I've never thought about it much since they all seem so content. Kona doesn't need RL friends... she's got hundreds of online friends who'll go questing with her. Kona is tolerant of Kagami and talks with her in a friendly, informal way, so I imagine Kagami is actually most comfortable being around Kona (even though she always gets teased ). Tsukasa is easy-going and doesn't appear to be on the same mental level as the rest of her classmates (that's not an insult - she operates on a different level, is what I mean), so of course Kona - who is also on her own level - would make a great friend for her to talk to.

Miyuki doesn't seem to hang around them as much... I think Kona likes having her around because she's so moe.

Maybe I'll come up with a better response later... I basically wrote about the complete opposite of what you were asking, AVPlaya. Sorry about that.

[Kyuusai]

Shiraishi's point was a good one, and I, for one, was moved by his speech (although Giren Zabi never did much for me).

Tsundere doesn't describe a character personality, but a character progression. As Risaa points out, tsundere characters can have vastly differing personalities.

I am eager to see what term emerges to properly describe types such as Kagami in Lucky Star and Naru in Love Hina... and AVPlaya and Vexx's respective wives

[Vexx]

EEEEEeeergh, please don't compare her to Naru, she'll pummel you, she probably fits a 'Motoko' tsundere style better (but really Kagami's crunchy outside creamy inside personality is more on target).

I can't believe I just said that.... O.o

[AVPlaya]

Originally Posted by Risaa

Maybe I'll come up with a better response later... I basically wrote about the complete opposite of what you were asking, AVPlaya. Sorry about that.

No need to apologize.. this is all about discussing our views... I really enjoyed your take on it. You're right that every tsundere is unique and has a different take on same stimulous.. but I guess why we keep watching them shows.

As for Kona and Kagami-sama team, I thought maybe the reason why Kagami is so taken by Kona (she's always hanging out with her), WAS the fact that Kona is probably the only person in real life who tease Kagami in this way. As a tsundere she might find this quite to her liking, as she knows dearly that insult is often a form of endearment. She must have felt that Kona only insults her because she's a real friend, just like she often make fun of Tsukasa because she loves her sister dearly. In fact I'm pretty positive - Tsundere really jokingly insult people they love, and they know it. They may act like they're annoyed by it, but I'm sure it's pretty warm and fuzzy deep inside when Kona-chan makes fun of her boring face.

I am eager to see what term emerges to properly describe types such as Kagami in Lucky Star and Naru in Love Hina... and AVPlaya and Vexx's respective wives

Oh I don't mean to brag but describing my wife will bring much hatred from the most of Otaku-dom. Let's start with the Tsun Tsun part: she's not a violent tsundere, but more a serious type like Kagami. She's very serious about the important things in life, like family, trust, love, honor, etc. She can get very passionate about defending the weak, and she always put others in front of herself. As for the dere-dere part, she''ll melt in presence of cute children or animal, she'll play with babies for hours. She's shy and grateful when you do something nice for her, and she has this precious tsundere blush. When she's in a dere mood there's really no one else you want to spend time with.

And the best part? It's when you shower a tsundere with love and she does this little cute display of joy which you know she will never show anyone else. That's like gold to me. Oh, on top of it, she looked like an anime character with jet black, shoulder length hair, and huge expressive eyes. She did her impression of Kona's "Timotei" moment yesterday and oh man, I was so overjoyed I almost cried. And she now says goodbye to me every morning with a "bye-mi". Yeah you can start your hating now.

[Kyuusai]

Originally Posted by Vexx

EEEEEeeergh, please don't compare her to Naru, she'll pummel you, she probably fits a 'Motoko' tsundere style better (but really Kagami's crunchy outside creamy inside personality is more on target).

I can't believe I just said that.... O.o

I don't think any of us have any problem believing you said that.

Of course, when I said "respective" it was respective of you and AVPlaya, not respective of the listed not-tsundere-but-what-are-they character examples.

[Claies]

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

And the best part? It's when you shower a tsundere with love and she does this little cute display of joy which you know she will never show anyone else. That's like gold to me. Oh, on top of it, she looked like an anime character with jet black, shoulder length hair, and huge expressive eyes. She did her impression of Kona's "Timotei" moment yesterday and oh man, I was so overjoyed I almost cried. And she now says goodbye to me every morning with a "bye-mi". Yeah you can start your hating now.

I'm simply half-laughing and half-applauding with joy that there is actually someone like that in the world. I never thought I'd hear of it.

[Vexx]

Kagami would be devastated if Kona ever actually changed her behavior to counter Kagami's barbs. They're a comedy duo and it would wreck the bond.

[Claies]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Kagami would be devastated if Kona ever actually changed her behavior to counter Kagami's barbs. They're a comedy duo and it would wreck the bond.

Come to think of it...what would happen to Kona if Kagami suddenly breaks off and joins the "popular group"? Tsukasa follows Kagami, and Miyuki basically doesn't hang out with her much to begin with.

[Risaa]

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

Oh I don't mean to brag but describing my wife will bring much hatred from the most of Otaku-dom. Let's start with the Tsun Tsun part: she's not a violent tsundere, but more a serious type like Kagami. She's very serious about the important things in life, like family, trust, love, honor, etc. She can get very passionate about defending the weak, and she always put others in front of herself. As for the dere-dere part, she''ll melt in presence of cute children or animal, she'll play with babies for hours. She's shy and grateful when you do something nice for her, and she has this precious tsundere blush. When she's in a dere mood there's really no one else you want to spend time with.

And the best part? It's when you shower a tsundere with love and she does this little cute display of joy which you know she will never show anyone else. That's like gold to me. Oh, on top of it, she looked like an anime character with jet black, shoulder length hair, and huge expressive eyes. She did her impression of Kona's "Timotei" moment yesterday and oh man, I was so overjoyed I almost cried. And she now says goodbye to me every morning with a "bye-mi". Yeah you can start your hating now.

I don't mean to sound nosy, but I love it when people talk about their wives (well, there's only really two of you now). I get massive warm fuzzies.

Originally Posted by Claies

Come to think of it...what would happen to Kona if Kagami suddenly breaks off and joins the "popular group"? Tsukasa follows Kagami, and Miyuki basically doesn't hang out with her much to begin with.

I don't see that ever happening, but if Kagami did leave... I imagine Kona would miss having someone to mess with. I think she'd be OK because she's so used to having no RL friends, but I just can't see how anyone could really stand to lose a friend like Kagami.

[nanafan]

thanks for the definition kagami definitely fits as a tsundere lol