2010-06-24, 08:37 | Link #11541 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Considering that his care about his cooking and being praised for it appears to be an overriding concern... I vote he would.
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-06-24, 09:09 | Link #11542 | |
Endless Turnless
Join Date: Mar 2010
|
Quote:
Gohda wouldn't probably put it past Master. To be honest, it might actually be that it's in Episode 2 that the things go most wrong with whatever the "original" plan is. After all, someone suddenly jumps in and starts acting as the witch, mocking the survivors.
__________________
|
|
2010-06-24, 09:25 | Link #11543 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
No, seriously, we're assuming godlike powers in this man by now. If there really is no limit, he's no different from a witch. Actually, there's little evidence that the note in the VIP room actually existed (we get it in the tips but it is never actually found or read as far as I remember) and similarly, George never shows the letter he just read to anybody, it simply vanishes...
__________________
|
|
2010-06-24, 09:49 | Link #11544 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
|
Quote:
|
|
2010-06-24, 10:39 | Link #11545 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
I always sort of felt that ep2 was the one where things went more or less correctly, murders aside. There's a very consistent First Twilight group, the presence of a "mysterious" 18th person resembling Beatrice, and a high possibility that several people are not aware of the deaths being real.
__________________
|
2010-06-24, 10:55 | Link #11546 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-06-24, 11:06 | Link #11547 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
I don't know. But if you look at it, the fake deaths plan - if indeed we assume the First Twilight is initially faked each time or intended to be such - is thrown together somewhat haphazardly at the last minute each night. It definitely goes better in some episodes than others; in ep1 and ep5 it's very crudely thrown together in an odd location (the shed, the cousins' room), but in ep2 (the chapel) and ep3 (the closed room circuit) it's elaborately arranged. Ep2-3 also have a more consistent grouping of "victim" selections - the parents, or the servants.
Rosa was probably picked to be the "survivor" in ep2 as the odd parent out, since she isn't married and they needed only six victims. I have very little doubt that, if the FT is generally faked, "Beatrice" told everyone about it, they agreed, the plan was put into place, and Rosa went off to do her part fully aware of the script. Then the script started not working right. I don't doubt, in many ways, that Rosa feared she was being framed. That's why she's acting so suspicious. She has very few opportunities to actually be the culprit.
__________________
|
2010-06-24, 11:44 | Link #11548 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
Imagine you're Beatrice. Surely, if you have a powerful enough lever, like the gold, you may be able to convince people to participate willingly, but why exactly do you want it to happen? If you cannot explain that to people in a way they will understand and accept, they are very likely to think it's all a complicated setup to manoeuvre them into a vulnerable position, these people are all old enough to know that the most plentiful source of free cheese is by far the mousetrap. In fact, suppose a "Beatrice" appears before the family in person, drops a stack of gold on the table and says "I want you to jump just so high, not too high, not too low, exactly that." Even if those present are sure the gold is real and there's more of it, the recognition that there's no reason for them to believe the "Beatrice" will hold up her end of the bargain will stop them and require believable explanations why "Beatrice" wants it to happen. They will want to know whether the end result of "Beatrice" reaching her goal will not hurt them more than her compensation can cover. If, in case of an Ep5-style setup, where the fake First Twilight apparently happens as a method of collectively getting back at Krauss and Natsuhi for structurally very similar treatment, the motivation is understandable, in case of Ep2 in particular the motivation is not very clear. While I previously wrote up a theory that would explain Ep2's motivation alone, it obviously doesn't work with Ep1 or Ep3.
__________________
|
|
2010-06-24, 12:29 | Link #11549 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
A few of the adults seem to think it was a prank by Kinzo though. Although I don't get why they'd deny Nanjo's statement that only Kinzo could have made the seal if that's what they think. Quote:
If you made the second twilight in episode 6 something like Hideyoshi and George or Nanjo and Kinzo Rudolf's portrait would be surrounded no matter who you kill after that. Although that may just be a coincidence I thought I might have finally found a pattern.
__________________
|
||
2010-06-24, 13:06 | Link #11550 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-06-24, 13:16 | Link #11551 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-06-24, 13:36 | Link #11552 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-06-24, 14:09 | Link #11553 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
Shannon supposedly wrote Kinzo's will for him. Shannon is most likely Beatrice. All the letters, message bottles, etc. are written in Beatrice's handwriting.
What if the Rokkenjima Serial Murders themselves were Kinzo's will? Didn't he want to revive Beatrice, after all? |
2010-06-24, 14:23 | Link #11554 | |||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
|||
2010-06-24, 15:08 | Link #11555 | ||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
I'm not sure about that one, which is why I mentioned it specifically. Shannon and Genji are said to be witnessing and possibly writing down Kinzo's will right now. That does not actually imply a will existed previously, let alone that they were involved with such a will. It's definitely evidence that it's natural for a will to exist, nobody's surprised Kinzo's writing a will when everybody's fearing for their lives and there's a murderer on the loose, but it's always natural for a will to exist with a rich man of 80 or more years of age. I can't question that Kinzo's 'will' may have existed, that is, a desire for certain events to happen in a certain way, which he may have communicated to others, as many things point to this. But I don't see any clear evidence of a written document having legal power existing before the start of the game -- and it would be required for this explanation to work. Until we can find it that will be the weakest spot. Quote:
A written will becomes very believable if it is in Kinzo's own handwriting which everyone is familiar with, signed by multiple witnesses, some of which are present and vouch for their signatures, and a witness that isn't present would be very nice too since it would reduce the chance that the will is written under duress. It solidifies completely if the document also comes with the ring and a bar of gold or two -- that becomes overwhelming evidence. But there is a host of seven characters on the board which should be aware that the ring did not initially come with the document, and can for this reason disbelieve it's authenticity. Are they among the witnesses that signed the will? Why did they not tell Krauss and Natsuhi about the will? If they did, much of the Ep5 goes down the drain as irreconcilable. Which is why I'm doubting them all in turn, as only the sum works reliably in all cases.
__________________
|
||
2010-06-24, 15:35 | Link #11556 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
You are discounting the possibility that Kinzo scenes shown on the board can, in some cases, theoretically be true but temporally displaced. For instance, the "Kinzo decides to have Shannon and Genji attest to his will" scene could well have really happened, just not on October 4th 1986. That scene always felt "off" to me, like the Kinzo scene with Natsuhi in ep1. Just as that scene had a different meaning, so too could the ep2 scene.
I'm not saying a will does exist, but there's evidence that an oral or written will is known to Shannon and Genji, if not more people.
__________________
|
2010-06-24, 16:02 | Link #11557 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
|
This has already been postulated before, but since we're going down this path again, I think it's quite relevant.
What if Kinzo was the one Battler sinned against, and the goal of the will was to break the 'unbeliever' and have him believe in 'magic?' And so we have a not-so-funny prank against Battler that everyone is compelled to commit. The will was written up to trigger whenever he came back to the island and was left in the hands of, say, maybe Genji, Shannon and Kanon to carry out all his specific wishes. And the other servants have already been told well before and are in the know when the game starts. I mean, Beatrice did say that her goal was to make Battler acknowledge his sin, and also to acknowledge that she exists as a witch. Wasn't it also about making him acknowledge magic as well? |
2010-06-24, 16:05 | Link #11558 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
And since we're talking about written wills, here's some research results. Apparently, most of the inheritance law is very recent compared to the rest of civil law in Japan, having been fully revised during the occupation period with heavy American influence. The most important changes included equal rights for inheritors regardless of gender. As I've already written before, during 1986, the inheritance tax in Japan was 70% for values above 300 million yen or so. It is deductible based on a formula depending on the number of heirs, but in case of Kinzo, the deduction would not result in significant changes. The tax apparently applies both to property and to money, and depends on the valuation of real property. It must be paid before any property can be sold, which makes it physically impossible to pay in this case. I am not sure if this includes shares in a holding company, which is basically the only way the Ushiromiyas can keep any money in case of legally distributed inheritance anyway (that is, by being a zaibatsu) but I expect that the only sure way to get them anywhere is by transferring them while Kinzo is still alive. The law describes reserved portions -- half of all the inheritance is to be distributed among the first rank claimants (children, lineal descendants) who are, apparently, all treated equally together with their spouses. If none of those are available, a third is reserved to be distributed to lineal ascendants. Everything above that may be willed freely without restrictions on whom it may be willed to. Interestingly, the law recognises that legally adopted children may have inheritance rights from their real parents as well. In case of a limited liability holding company, this apparently can be sidestepped and was the practical way for most of the XX century. Two forms of will are recognised by the law, a holographic document and a notarized document. The holographic will must be written entirely by the testator in their own hand, with the date, name, and a personal seal, no witnesses are apparently required by law in this case. The will may be valid if the seal is not affixed, but this requires a civil court decision. The notarized will is written by notary public with dictation from the testator before two or more witnesses. What this translates into is a few interesting points:
And if such an executor exists, they basically own the Ushiromiya family already, and don't need to prove anything to anyone -- they just need to show documents declaring they own the shares of the holding company and Kinzo's instructions, and anything they say goes. ...BUT, they must stay alive in Ange's world so that Eva owns the Ushiromiya Group afterwards!
__________________
|
|
2010-06-24, 16:09 | Link #11559 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-06-24, 16:15 | Link #11560 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
This probably very off topic, but I found an occult society that Beatrice 1 and Kinzo may have known of if Ryukishi did any real research. I was wondering what your opinion on it might be. Since it basically fits a lot of what we've been told about Beatrice and Kinzo. it might just be a coincidence in the name.
Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn Quote:
__________________
|
|
|
|