[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Renall

To what end? To insult them?

I think a lot of his readers (including myself) have looked back and reflected on some of the mistakes they made trying to understand his story. I don't take it as an insult. It was more of a lesson learned for me.

Originally Posted by Renall

There's nothing nonsensical about the moral belief that more information is always better than less information, which is a perfectly rational (if somewhat extreme) standpoint. Saying "always" is something of a mischaracterization of the point I was making, which is more along the lines of "unless it's made abundantly clear that there exists a reason not to." If he's not going to give us x, he's obligated to demonstrate y to us, not just assure us that y exists and that he therefore need not demonstrate x.

I thought you wanted to advance the argument that it's always evil.

Anyway, I don't see why he would be obligated to demonstrate anything to us about Rokkenjima Prime. He never made such a promise.

Originally Posted by Sherringford

Insulting his readers because of generalizations is the sign of not only a bad writer, but an immature human being.

I never said I believe he did it to insult them. I don't know what his motivations were. However, I think he wanted for us to look back at the story and reflect on the mistakes in our approach.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Ssol

I think a lot of his readers (including myself) have looked back and reflected on some of the mistakes they made trying to understand his story. I don't take it as an insult. It was more of a lesson learned for me.

And just who is he to instruct you? What are his credentials? Why does he have anything to teach you? Are you asking yourself these questions first?

I thought you wanted to advance the argument that it's always evil.

Perhaps you should check the line immediately preceding it, which states "That's all well and good, but unfortunately not one of us has been able to reach that conclusion ourselves, as there appears to be no evidence which would allow us to conclude that" in response to AuraTwilight's suggestion that there could exist a morally justifiable reason. I then did suggest that, as respects the Rokkenjima Incident, concealment can be argued to always be evil. Obviously absent some ephemeral justification that doesn't exist in any form.

Anyway, I don't see why he would be obligated to demonstrate anything to us about Rokkenjima Prime. He never made such a promise.

One need not make a promise to create an obligation.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by Ssol

I never said I believe he did it to insult them. I don't know what his motivations were. However, I think he wanted for us to look back at the story and reflect on the mistakes in our approach.

Fair enough. But without getting into his motivations for his actions, it is pretty undeniable that he either insulted his readers or legally retarded and didn't notice how his writing came off as.

Either way doesn't bode well for the quality of his writing.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Renall

And just who is he to instruct you? What are his credentials? Why does he have anything to teach you? Are you asking yourself these questions first?

I believe he was quite successful with Higurashi before this. So yes, I was familiar with the author.

Originally Posted by Renall

Perhaps you should check the line immediately preceding it, which states "That's all well and good, but unfortunately not one of us has been able to reach that conclusion ourselves, as there appears to be no evidence which would allow us to conclude that" in response to AuraTwilight's suggestion that there could exist a morally justifiable reason. I then did suggest that, as respects the Rokkenjima Incident, concealment can be argued to always be evil. Obviously absent some ephemeral justification that doesn't exist in any form.

I will not venture a guess on the circumstances of the situation. I will give Ryukishi the benefit of the doubt on this so I believe it must be similar to what episode 8 revealed to us.

Tooya did reveal to Ange that he did not want to meet with her. However, I saw no malice in his character and I only saw regret.

Originally Posted by Renall

One need not make a promise to create an obligation.

That is true. However, it is only your opinion that an obligation exists in the first place.

Originally Posted by Sherringford

Fair enough. But without getting into his motivations for his actions, it is pretty undeniable that he either insulted his readers or legally retarded and didn't notice how his writing came off as.

Either way doesn't bode well for the quality of his writing.

Yeah, I think he could have handled it better. The goats were a bit of a surprise for me.

In my opinion, he should have presented his readers in two camps:

• Those who are currently following his story.
• Those who will read in the future.

By doing this, he could show the readers that he believes the future generations will understand his story. Maybe he could even have had a scene where "future" goats are battling with "present" goats.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Ssol

I believe he was quite successful with Higurashi before this. So yes, I was familiar with the author.

Well, popularity is no credential for competence. No question Umineko is a huge improvement on Higurashi and a fairly high-quality example of the genre.

That doesn't necessarily imply he has the chops to lecture me about Van Dine.

[AuraTwilight]

I just like to think that it wasn't Ryukishi being smug at US so much as Hachijou being SMUUUUGGG at the in-universe witchhunters.

Originally Posted by Ryukishi

Wait, you thought Hachijou was my stand-in and the Witch Hunter Goats represented you guys? The fuck? Man, you are just all kinds of wrong.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, popularity is no credential for competence. No question Umineko is a huge improvement on Higurashi and a fairly high-quality example of the genre.

That doesn't necessarily imply he has the chops to lecture me about Van Dine.

You know, your point can be turned against you quite easily.
What gives you the right to question his competence?
What makes you or by that means anyone so competent that it can be said wether the way he used classical mystery elements was wrong or that he was going for the "wrong message"?!

Even people who say they are authors themselves around here don't have that right. It's not about having a right in the first place...because an author is not god, he is just someone who communicates his "truth" to the outside world.
And mysteries...no stories in general are no longer written in ONE WAY and that being the only acceptable way. You can choose to believe in postmodern writing or not, but just take a look at anything written in the last 20 or 30 years.

I don't think he did want to teach us anything about mystery fiction...he maybe wanted to make a point about truth and love and this was the perfect container for it.
You can agree or disagree with his concept...I for one am more on the disagreeing side as well. But saying that he has no right to have an opinion is just so wrong on so many levels.

[ndqanh_vn]

I never said I believe he did it to insult them. I don't know what his motivations were. However, I think he wanted for us to look back at the story and reflect on the mistakes in our approach.

I am never insulted by what he threw at me (some are quite nasty stuff) because, you know, I have love, I see something that you guy missed:


RYUKISHI IS BEING TSUNDERE TO US!!!


Ok..I'm being serious, really...
...

To be honest, I always feel the existence of a female behind the stories. Some woman tried to tell us something by not saying anything at all and being very nasty at us ( a bit similar to how Beatrice treated Battler, right?) Ryukishi in his writing sometimes is more female than many female writers I have read.

And why I continue to read the story? I want the mystery being answered, but the more important reason is, I have fallen in love with the woman in his writing.

Or maybe I just have masochistic hidden tendency...

[MeoTwister5]

So I said I was going to do the Tea Parties and the ???? by yesterday but didn't have time due to exams. Managed to finish and squeeze in the Tea Party today.

Spoiler for Summary:

Episode 8 Tea Party

- A witch is holding her pen and writing on her manuscript. Piles of other manuscripts are scattered about.
- Featherine is looking kind of stressed. She slumps down on her work and is worried about the progress of her writing. She wonders how to write at all about the stories of humans, especially for the catbox. She talks to herself.
- She says she'll write a bit more and end it where she thinks is okay. She decides to take a break and visit her cat.
- In her room, Bern is sewing up Lambda back together, who is complaining about how painful her suturing technique is. Bern is enjoying this.
- Erika arrives bringing some food and chopsticks. She tells her to prepare while she sews up Lambda. She tells Erika that a letter came for her. They say the letter is postmarked from heaven. Bern thinks it's from Dlanor and says this is her reasoning. Erika jokingly invokes Van Dine 9 and says there cannot be two detectives (this is not colored text).
- Lambda is asking them to hurry up with putting her back together. Erika makes fun of her and takes her left arm. She tickles Lambda's arm. Abject sillines ensues.
- Narrator says Lambda's body is made of cake and sweets which is why she can survive like this. They check Dlanor's letter.
- In the letter, Gertrude is promoted to Inquisitor level. Cornelia is made a quaestor and is currently involved in the combat sport program. Will, and the witches are surprised to read this, bought some real estate property by the mountains and is renting rooms, living off the rent in relaxation and taught badminton by Lion. For whatever reason, Lion appears with him and pinches his ass.
- I don't really understand about the details with Dlanor since the text moves too fast and it doesn't actually say what happened. I surmise Dlanor got promoted to a desk job but, since she pulled out her red sword, still apparently prefers to be in the field.
- The witches go have some tea. Bern says she plans to head to northern kakeras like Minami. Lambda says she'll head west of Bern goes east. They talk about meeting in the kakera sea again. Giggles.
- End of Tea Party

The last page for Episode 8 here.

BTW someone asked why I wasn't asking for rep or something for all this work, since it's apparently the way the graphic artists and avatar/sig makers on the board get... uh... compensation or something I don't really care that much about rep so I don't ask for it. When I started with Ep5 I originally did it for myself but eventually thought it would be nice to share it with other people, so from there it became something of a personal project of mine. If you want to rep me go ahead, though it'll be best to do it AFTER I actually finish lol.

[witchfan]

Originally Posted by renall

No question Umineko is a huge improvement on Higurashi and a fairly high-quality example of the genre.

I don't know, Higurashi may've had its "play-pretend" moments, fooling us into thinking there's a logical answer... but it was never implied it was a mystery. Ending aside, Higurashi is really a very nice thriller/drama (which, by the way, is what Ryukishi is actually good at).

Originally Posted by haguruma

What gives you the right to question his competence?

You don't need a special right to complain about a disappointing author. Especially not when you were following him for years. Renall's position is in no way unique here. You can defend an author's competence but you can't argue someone's right to question it.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by witchfan

You don't need a right to complain about a disappointing author. Especially not when you were following him for years. Renall's position is in no way unique here.

Yes, but it's a neverending circle that leads nowhere.
Does the right to decide what has to be in a work of fiction lie with the author or with the audience?!
Until the 70's or 80's (in some areas even the 90's) people would have said that the author has the authority, because he is the creator. But then it shifted and now the audience seems to see itself in the position of power.

Why do we as an audience have the absolute authority to decide that an author is "disappointing"?!

The problem is that while everyone wants the best for him or herself, the best for everybody is individual. So to satisfy all those needs an author would have to grab the most basic elements from a database of audience-approved parts...but he could never insert his own opinion, because it could result in displeasure on the audience-side.

I wouldn't say that Ryûkishi consciously added to that discourse, but for anyone who's interested in that you can read quite some interesting ideas about it in Azuma Hiroki's book Otaku Animal Database.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Yes, but it's a neverending circle that leads nowhere.
Does the right to decide what has to be in a work of fiction lie with the author or with the audience?!
Until the 70's or 80's (in some areas even the 90's) people would have said that the author has the authority, because he is the creator. But then it shifted and now the audience seems to see itself in the position of power.

The one thing Ryukishi got right here is saying everyone is entitled to their own interpretation. Consequently, people are also entitled to dissenting interpretations, if that's the conclusion they reach.

Why do we as an audience have the absolute authority to decide that an author is "disappointing"?!

Because the author produced a work which, upon our reading, did not satisfy us. It's really no more complicated than that. Some people were satisfied, some people were not.

The problem is that while everyone wants the best for him or herself, the best for everybody is individual. So to satisfy all those needs an author would have to grab the most basic elements from a database of audience-approved parts...but he could never insert his own opinion, because it could result in displeasure on the audience-side.

If he had the guts to stand by his own interpretation regardless of revelation status, aware and mindful of the impact it would have, I wouldn't be busting his balls over it. There are legitimate reasons for an author not to comment on his own work, but his behavior has led me to question his reasons for doing so. Once that trust breaks down, there's really only one way to resolve it. I wouldn't mind it so much if he were sticking to principle and I just happened to disagree (and I suspect that based on what I assume is his point, I do disagree in part), but to restore that original working relationship requires that he demonstrate to the skeptic that he actually knew what he was doing.

If you don't care, and are satisfied, great! He doesn't have to prove anything to you because it all clicked. Critics exist though, and I'm not sure one can simply say that they're doing it wrong.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Why do we as an audience have the absolute authority to decide that an author is "disappointing"?!
.

The audience or consumer of this story has an absolute authority when it comes to judging it. As you have to pay to actually read it then you are entitled to not support the author anymore if you find that his stories aren't worth paying for. Or instead of following the story for 4 years just wait till the last EP is released and marathon them so you dont have to pay for each single episode.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister

- In the letter, Gertrude is promoted to Inquisitor level. Cornelia is made a quaestor and is currently involved in the combat sport program. Will, and the witches are surprised to read this, bought some real estate property by the mountains and is renting rooms, living off the rent in relaxation and taught badminton by Lion. For whatever reason, Lion appears with him and pinches his ass.

Aw yeah. I took that scene as Lion pinching him because of the smirk he had on his face. I don't know, it just seemed like Lion went "hey what are you smirking about? *pinch*"

But there is like 0 text to support my interpretation, so who knows? Maybe Lion just has OCD and needs to pinch asses every five minutes or something.

...Did I just make a post theorizing about the nature behind Lion's butt pinching?

Originally Posted by haguruma

Why do we as an audience have the absolute authority to decide that an author is "disappointing"?!

Because he is a writer. Once we open a book, we sign a contract with him. We pay him however many dollars his work may cost, and he tries to entertain us. We have no right to demand our money back, but sure we can feel ripped off nonetheless.

It is an author's duty to entertain the reader, and the reader has the right to feel disappointed. To claim otherwise is preposterous.

[ClannadDango]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

So I said I was going to do the Tea Parties and the ???? by yesterday but didn't have time due to exams. Managed to finish and squeeze in the Tea Party today.

That actually sounds like an awesome Tea Party, thanks again for providing summaries.

Though was that just the Tea Party or did it include the ????

[Axilios]

It is an author's duty to entertain the reader, and the reader has the right to feel disappointed. To claim otherwise is preposterous.

I would add that it is the main difference between a professional writer and an amateur one. Not being concerned about the reader's PoV is something that can be okay for fanfics writers, but it absolutely doesn't work with professionals.

Though was that just the Tea Party or did it include the ????

No, it's only the Tea here.

[ClannadDango]

Well there is a unique position between the writer and the reader, and in Ryukishi's case since he openned the door for the readers to play a game.

The author who provided the reader with entertainment does not owe the reader any answers or fan wanted story plots/endings. Though if the author openly wanted fan involvement and did not give them a respectable conclusion then that may come off as rude but it's not something the author needs to do. While at the same time author's are weary of their fans' power and give them what they want (like Stephine Meyer with Twilight). Some writers (like the writers of Simpsons) say in this case since they provide so much that it really should be the readers who owe the author.

But this is not the case as the fans who helped elevate the author's rise to fame, spent money for to buy the work, and promoted the author's product does not owe the author anything. That's the relationship in which either one does not own the other anything but both have the right to express their feelings if they feel something was not satisfactory.

Ryukishi told the story he wanted to tell and the readers can take the conclusion/moral of the story in any manner they want. If the readers are happy with the story then they can look forward to buying his next work, if they feel cheated then they can stop supporting or reading his new works. But neither owes the other anything.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Sherringford

A
It is an author's duty to entertain the reader, and the reader has the right to feel disappointed. To claim otherwise is preposterous.

Is it?!
Well, I would say you're right in one point, "the reader has the right to feel disappointed", but does that make the author or the story "disappointing"?
I for am example was terribly disappointed by a detective story I read recently, because it consisted of nothing else but a trick (though a pretty clever one), held up by cardboard characters and a really thin plot...for my taste. Some other readers and even some authors praised it for having a wonderful trick and that alone making the novel a masterpiece of it's time.
Who's right here?
Did the author not fulfill his duty because I wasn't entertained?
Am I wrong because some other readers found the book great?
Are they wrong because I thought it was boring?

Originally Posted by ClannadDango

Ryukishi told the story he wanted to tell and the readers can take the conclusion/moral of the story in any manner they want. If the readers are happy with the story then they can look forward to buying his next work, if they feel cheated then they can stop supporting or reading his new works. But neither owes the other anything.

I think that says it quite perfectly.
Nobody owes the other anything. There is no duty involved either.
A good author publishes something because he has something to say or to impart. That can be to entertain the reader, but it can also be to teach a lesson, to express a view on a certain topic or to convey his feelings to the world.
Paul Auster surely didn't want to entertain the reader when he wrote City of Glass and Jane Austen surely didn't want to express well constructed thoughts about feminism when she wrote Pride and Prejudice (Yet I can feel entertained by City of Glass and find constructs of early feminism in Pride and Prejudice...).

I like it when something entertains me, of course. But I think there's nothing more boring than a work of fiction that aims to entertain and nothing more...
Of course, the danger of being unpleasent is much higher...but it also leaves you with nothing in the end.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Did the author not fulfill his duty because I wasn't entertained?
Am I wrong because some other readers found the book great?
Are they wrong because I thought it was boring?

Yes, no, and possibly. What's hard to understand there?

I think that says it quite perfectly.
Nobody owes the other anything. There is no duty involved either.

Bear in mind: He charged us for this. Eight times. Well, I actually got 1-4 together and if you were patient you could just get 5-8 at once and get it twice, but that's not the point. Anyway there's that.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Bear in mind: He charged us for this. Eight times. Well, I actually got 1-4 together and if you were patient you could just get 5-8 at once and get it twice, but that's not the point. Anyway there's that.

And we deliberately payed for it.
It's like seeing a whole movie and then asking for your money back even though it was apparently good enough to sit through until the end.

Of course you payed for something, but was that really entertainment?!
You payed to see what Ryukishi had written, if it would be to your liking. In the end it wasn't, but was that his fault?

Let's assume you were cooking for a group of friends, but you don't have enough money to pay for all the ingredients, so you agree beforehand that you would share the costs.
They have never tasted your version of that certain food before, but they liked your cooking before. They eat everything you cooked, but in the end they complain that it wasn't what they expected and they think you betrayed them for making them pay for something like that.
Does that sound fair to you?

It's a discussion you can turn around and around.
Some see the authority over a work of fiction in the authors hands (because he created it), some think it lies with the audience (because they are the one's consuming it).
It's the eternal struggle of creator vs. consumer. And I think it's so highly ironic that, consciously or subconsiously, Ryûkishi inserted that into Umineko as well.