(L) Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ (Nitroplus & Bee Train)

[miroku2192]

Good posts, good discussions. I said it before andi 'll say it again.

It just doesn't make sense. The director's decision to have Reiji KILL Cal doesn't make sense to me AT ALL. It just doesn't. The whole dream sequence/wishing that they could've actually been together ONLY makes sense when you're FORCED to kill one another...NOT when you still have other options...and what makes it worse is that MIO just CALLED HIM UP and explained to him that what she needs isn't death but help, someone to be there for her (i.e. - REIJI).

But Nope, the director has to make Reiji kill her? I still don't get it. It doesn't fit. It doesn't make sense. IT just shouts out "FAIL" to me. And YES I am a cal-shipper fan, but this isn't a rant from a sore loser/cal-shipper fan who can't accept her death...i'm speaking from looking at the circumstances, and it just doesn't make sense.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Zwei

She didn't show any interest at all to hear his explanations to begin with, and even then she would still have carried on her revenge.

Let me reiterate, there WERE NO EXPLANATIONS. Please stop peddling this line without giving an example in which episode at which timecode he explains anything.

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Let me reiterate, there WERE NO EXPLANATIONS. Please stop peddling this line without giving an example in which episode at which timecode he explains anything.

If an explentaion is what she wanted, she should have asked him the first time they met after 2 years. All she went after was revenge. In his mind Reiji didn't have to explain anything as he was already admiting that he was wrong and was willing to accept punishmnet. I think the straw that broke the camels back for Reiji was when Cal got Mio needlessly involved.

[Zwei]

Exactly, and this is my last post I'm posting about Cal. After all I'm not drowning in my sorrows or anything, since I prefer Ein over Cal anytime, I'm getting the ending I want after all =)

She never wanted to hear him what excuse will he come out with, she only wanted revenge and to be loved by Reiji, but she failed on both. She never got Reiji's love nor her revenge. She ruined her life by her own hands.

I don't hate Cal or anything, I know her death was stupid and it could have been more creative and fit, but we can't change that, can we? =)

[telamont]

Originally Posted by Zwei

Exactly, and this is my last post I'm posting about Cal. After all I'm not drowning in my sorrows or anything, since I prefer Ein over Cal anytime, I'm getting the ending I want after all =)

She never wanted to hear him what excuse will he come out with, she only wanted revenge and to be loved by Reiji, but she failed on both. She never got Reiji's love nor her revenge. She ruined her life by her own hands.

I don't hate Cal or anything, I know her death was stupid and it could have been more creative and fit, but we can't change that, can we? =)

Episode 26 hasn' t come around yet. Aren't you counting your chickens before they hatch? After all, the show is called Requiem for the Phantom. I really hope not but they might decide to troll us all and kill everybody in the end, for all we know.

As for Cal... I initially thought as much. But with episode 25, isn't it more like... She wanted Reiji's love. Which she got all along (that entire dream sequence, and the "CAAAAALL!!!" at the end anybody?) She got a death wish. Which she also got. Happy End. Kind of?

About that whole "excuses" thing. Reiji never even tried. It might have turned out like you said. Or it might have worked. We'll never know now. Which I think is stupid. Was 5 minutes or so of passionate entreaty to once and for all cement Cal as a lost cause (or not) too much to ask for? "Sigh."

[Zwei]

Originally Posted by telamont

As for Cal... I initially thought as much. But with episode 25, isn't it more like... She wanted Reiji's love. Which she got all along (that entire dream sequence, and the "CAAAAALL!!!" at the end anybody?) She got a death wish. Which she also got. Happy End. Kind of?

About that whole "excuses" thing. Reiji never even tried. It might have turned out like you said. Or it might have worked. We'll never know now. Which I think is stupid. Was 5 minutes or so of passionate entreaty to once and for all cement Cal as a lost cause (or not) too much to ask for? "Sigh."

I don't really get why people keep brining up this "dream sequence", it was obviously made to mislead people, which happened alot here. Reiji could have chosen to NOT hit a vital point if he wanted to, but for some reason he really set his mind on killing Cal(I found this pretty stupid).

I don't get why Cal opened her eyes and faced reality just as she was about to die and not before, that I will never understand. Too much pride, maybe?

[lightbringer]

Although I was and am rooting for an Ein ending all along, I too do not really get Cal's death. Dunno how it was in the VN, but it reeks of cheap melodrama, especially since Reiji never even tries to reason with Cal but instead takes the easy way out by putting her out of her misery. As Phantom he might not hold people's lives in high regard but you'd think he would at least try to persuade her.

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by lightbringer

Although I was and am rooting for an Ein ending all along, I too do not really get Cal's death. Dunno how it was in the VN, but it reeks of cheap melodrama, especially since Reiji never even tries to reason with Cal but instead takes the easy way out by putting her out of her misery. As Phantom he might not hold people's lives in high regard but you'd think he would at least try to persuade her.

I said before and I'll say it again. Reiji already admitted he was wrong and was willing to be killed by Cal. I also think that her death was stupid but the one who took the easy way out was Cal and not Reiji. She chose to go out with a bang and get killed instead of reforming and going after her loved one. She pretty much chose to get killed. I find it hard to believe that Cal wasnt even able to get a shot off against Reiji, In my opinion she threw her life away, and took the easy way out.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Zwei

I don't really get why people keep brining up this "dream sequence", it was obviously made to mislead people, which happened alot here.

Considering it would have to be Reiji's brain that came up with the dream sequence or whatever else you want to call it, that would mean he's misleading himself or, at best, a part of him was feeling enough regret to come up with such an alternative scenario. Either way, it seems people will always see whatever they want to see, and that goes for both sides of this argument. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, it's also natural.

[Lady Orihime]

Cal didn't want an explanation. That's all there is to it. She wanted to pass judgment on Reiji herself. She says so in the episode:

REIJI: You're anger represents justice. You don't need to bring this to court. Just use your gun to bring judgment upon me. Not by anyone else, but yourself. If you're stronger than me, then I'll be punished.

CAL: Just the way I want it.

Cal not only wanted revenge, but she wanted to prove she was stronger than Reiji. Cal wanted the duel, and Reiji obliged to it because there was no other way to settle this. Was he supposed to stand there with his thumb up his ass and let her shoot at him point blank? Was he supposed to be on the run from her for the rest of his life? She wouldn't even listen to her visions of Judy, Lizzie, and the Chinese dude, which were representations of herself questioning her acts. If she wouldn't listen to herself, she wasn't going to listen to anyone else. She just didn't care. Quote, "I'm doing it because I can."

Originally Posted by telamont

Episode 26 hasn' t come around yet. Aren't you counting your chickens before they hatch? After all, the show is called Requiem for the Phantom. I really hope not but they might decide to troll us all and kill everybody in the end, for all we know.

I don't think the title has anything to do with a characters death. I think it just means that it's the Requiem for the title of "Phantom".

[Xander]

What people say they want, even to themselves, isn't always everything they want, in both fiction and reality.

[Zwei]

Originally Posted by Xander

Considering it would have to be Reiji's brain that came up with the dream sequence or whatever else you want to call it, that would mean he's misleading himself or, at best, a part of him was feeling enough regret to come up with such an alternative scenario. Either way, it seems people will always see whatever they want to see, and that goes for both sides of this argument. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, it's also natural.

That's why I said the way they handled that part was pretty stupid. Why would Reiji have that sort of "dream sequence", it would have made sense if Cal did, because that's what she wanted all along, but not Reiji.

He said it countless times through out the series, "I will kill to live", Cal was an important person to him but in the end she was one of those people that fell under his motto.

[telamont]

Originally Posted by Zwei

I don't really get why people keep bringing up this "dream sequence", it was obviously made to mislead people, which happened alot here. Reiji could have chosen to NOT hit a vital point if he wanted to, but for some reason he really set his mind on killing Cal(I found this pretty stupid).

I don't get why Cal opened her eyes and faced reality just as she was about to die and not before, that I will never understand. Too much pride, maybe?

Why not? It is a major scene in a major event. Elaborate please on how it's obviously designed to mislead people though. Nothing about the way Reiji handled himself around Cal made much sense btw. It's like... the writer wanted to please the Ellen fans by getting her out of the way for a Reiji/Ellen end, yet also wanted to placate the Cal fans by leaving her ambiguous (as in... not definitively a lost cause beyond help, since Reiji didn't even really try) and settled for knocking his IQ down by a few dozen points whenever Cal's around as a result.

Oh wait... actually, there's a perfectly logical explanation for this. As the end of episode 20 showed us in such loving detail, whenever Cal's around, Reiji's just too... busy ogling her chest to form much coherent thought. Also explains how Claudia played him so easily in the past. Same phenomenon. In other words, in Phantom Requiem, having a big bust... kills.

On Cal finally opening her eyes just as she was about to die? He won. She was dying. He no longer had a reason to fear her or lie to her. Yet he was tenderly holding her in his arms and crying. So I guess that was enough to convince her that she was loved? If that's all it takes though, how hard could persuading her without killing her really be? "Sigh," again, since Reiji never, you know, really tried, we'll never know.

[Zwei]

Well, the only time he had the chance and was actually trying to explain, she punched his face. He had no obligation whatsoever afterwards to persuade her, she was no longer the Cal he knew, Ein was his top priority and she just fell under his motto, "I will kill to live".

[Xander]

I think Reiji is a more complex character than just someone who lives by his own motto and blindly follows it without any hesitation. You might think that dream sequence is stupid, but for me it actually makes him a more interesting and even tragic character. The fact Reiji still killed Cal, but not without deep regrets, shows that clearly enough.

His decision had several consequences, even from his own point of view. Again, there will always be different interpretations about this series and its characters, which is actually a good thing.

[telamont]

Originally Posted by Lady Orihime

Cal didn't want an explanation. That's all there is to it. She wanted to pass judgment on Reiji herself. She says so in the episode:



Cal not only wanted revenge, but she wanted to prove she was stronger than Reiji. Cal wanted the duel, and Reiji obliged to it because there was no other way to settle this. Was he supposed to stand there with his thumb up his ass and let her shoot at him point blank? Was he supposed to be on the run from her for the rest of his life? She wouldn't even listen to her visions of Judy, Lizzie, and the Chinese dude, which were representations of herself questioning her acts. If she wouldn't listen to herself, she wasn't going to listen to anyone else. She just didn't care. Quote, "I'm doing it because I can."



I don't think the title has anything to do with a characters death. I think it just means that it's the Requiem for the title of "Phantom".

That's one way to look at it I suppose. I see it as: Cal wanted to die, but not before taking along Ellen as a final act of jealousy. Then Reiji came along, messed up her plans and started talking out of his ass. At this point, Cal's just too tired to care. So she's like "Whatever. Let the bitch live. Big deal. I still get to die. And this way, maybe he'll shed some tears for me before I go." In that light, Reiji could have made a last ditch attempt at reconciliation, and it could have worked. Like you said, she was already questioning herself. A final push from her most important person might have done the job. But nope. "Your gun represents justice..." Yeah. We'll never know now.

About the title, I'm just throwing out a possibility. That's all. But considering how dark Phantom has been so far... well, I'd still be quite shocked if it comes true though.

[Zwei]

Sycthe is pretty cunning. He's even manipulating us into blaming Reiji and bashing Cal when everything that's happening is all his fault. What a bastard....

[telamont]

Originally Posted by Zwei

Well, the only time he had the chance and was actually trying to explain, she punched his face. He had no obligation whatsoever afterwards to persuade her, she was no longer the Cal he knew, Ein was his top priority and she just fell under his motto, "I will kill to live".

Really? How about just going: "Cal! You're alive! I'm so happy!" when they first meet again instead of just ogling her chest? After she punched him, he could have stood back up, grabbed her arm, and finished his explanation instead of sitting there on the ground and errr... enjoying the view and the "unique" angle? When they meet for the last time, he could have made a last ditch attempt? Heck, he had plenty of time to seek her out throughout the arc had he wanted to? But NO, no matter how you look at, he just zoned out whenever Cal showed up, and then angsted about it later.

And where exactly was it stated that Ellen was his top priority this arc btw? I was under the impression that it was to GTF out of town, away from Inferno and live on; and then Mio's, Cal's and Ellen's well being in no particular order? In fact, I do not recall seeing him comment on Ellen's well being even once in this arc. He wanted to get away, he worried about Mio, he angsted over Cal. Ellen? Nada. Even when he was confronting Cal. Did he say that it was for Ellen? Nope. It was basically "Cal's my responsibility. Not yours." So how did you come to that conclusion? I'm honestly curious.

[Zwei]

Originally Posted by telamont

Really? How about just going: "Cal! You're alive! I'm so happy!" when they first meet again instead of just ogling her chest? After she punched him, he could have stood back up, grabbed her arm, and finished his explanation instead of sitting there on the ground and errr... enjoying the view and the "unique" angle? When they meet for the last time, he could have made a last ditch attempt? Heck, he had plenty of time to seek her out throughout the arc had he wanted to? But NO, no matter how you look at, he just zoned out whenever Cal showed up, and then angst about it later.

And where exactly was it stated that Ellen was his top priority this arc btw? I was under the impression that it was to GTF out of town, away from Inferno and live on; and then Mio's, Cal's and Ellen's well being in no particular order? In fact, I do not recall seeing him comment on Ellen's well being even once in this arc. He wanted to get away, he worried about Mio, he angsted over Cal. Ellen? Nada. Even when he was confronting Cal. Did he say that it was for Ellen? Nope. It was basically "Cal's my responsibility. Not yours." So how did you come to that conclusion? I'm honestly curious.

That would have made no sense. He always thought she was dead, she also changed alot from 2 years ago, both physically and mentally. He was still in disbelief.

You can't go with the "what if" theory, because there will be countless conclusions and we will debate endlessly. Also what's with the ogling her chest thing? I don't get it unless you're trying to be funny, then lol.

Elen was his top priority ever since he decided to go with her 2 years before. Elen is something special in his heart, she is the only person who can understand him because they both went through the same thing and both live in the same worlds. He will never let go of Elen no matter what. Cal was threatning to kill Elen, but Reiji didn't want to risk it, he decided to confront Cal and also to confront his past.

Reiji also made a promise with Elen, to find her past. He also made a promise with Cal to stay together forever, he tried to fulfill that promise by dying, since he thought Cal was dead but he was unable to as he had gained a new reason to live, Elen.

It's obvious that Ein is my favorite character out of the female cast. I love her character, her design, her personality and her assassination skills. Heck, I even like her name, lol.

[willyvereb]

Actions speak louder than words. Why he should flee from the country if he has a death wish for himself? Why he must KILL Cal if he could've died(or tried to convince her and died) instead?
And just injuring her instead of killing her? Man...who came up with that idea? It's not some kind of fps. In those situation you aim with real guns, feel real pressure, and the whole time you don't see a 2d crosshair to show your aim...
It would bepossible against somone "regular", but he's fighting with the newest Phantom, Drei.
In those situations he don't have time to care about keeping her alive.
And why the hell he didin't speak with her...you know killing somone very close to you needs quite much mental preparation, he didn't have the willpower and remaning mental capacity to talk it out with her. He constantly prepared himself to kill Cal.