The best Gundam pilot from UC to AU

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

MUST SO MANY POSTS BE DEVOTED TO KIRA?

IF YOU HATE KIRA, THEN STOP GIVING HIM MORE ATTENTION.
IF YOU LOVE KIRA, JUST ADORE HIM AND KEEP HIM TO YOURSELF.

Seriously, what's the point of having a title for the thread if almost every single post is not addressing it?

[aeriolewinters]

MUST SO MANY POSTS BE DEVOTED TO KIRA?

IF YOU HATE KIRA, THEN STOP GIVING HIM MORE ATTENTION.
IF YOU LOVE KIRA, JUST ADORE HIM AND KEEP HIM TO YOURSELF.

Seriously, what's the point of having a title for the thread if almost every single post is not addressing it?

Well, I did plead the mods to create a Kira thread so that all posts pertaining to him and about him are buffered there. Also, can you blame people around here. To some the guy might be trash when it comes to piloting, but popular opinion always paints Kira as one of the best. Which is why many arguments like this stem out.

On my opinion on the whole of this, I'd rather not rank things, mostly because there isn't a standard unit or basis of comparison. And I have to account things like:

-Fundamental Differences across universes

-Handicaps

-Machinery and differences within different Series.

As for my personal opinion of Kira:

1. I'm one of the Kira fans who believe that he isn't what most people believe he is. To me, I see him as one of the best innovators of techniques, he's one really unorthodox pilot, and to me this is where he stands out from the rest of the CE. Sure Shinn has some stuff, ironically against a weaker version of Kira(again this is my opinion), but none of them are spur-of-the-moment like what Kira on Strike used to do.Also, his skillset during the first half of SEED was almost up to par with some pilots from other series.

2. As per this year, people don't usually bring up Kira's stint on Strike, hate him or love him, which subtracts to most of his quality as a pilot and also why a BD remake of SEED is actually a good idea. Most people bring up beamspamming against Kira but let us analyze, from day one to present, Kira has always relied on his unit's speed to overwhelm the enemy. It was the Strike's Mobility due to Kira's tuning that made it good. It was the raw speed of Freedom that allowed it to disarm mobile suits. Kira does not really like ranged battle, if you look at all Strike scenes, Kira always wanted to go into close quarters. So Ironically, Kira's optimal suit is:

Spoiler:

Destiny, mostly because it combines all of Strike's strengths and gives it the same speed that the Freedom has.

You all think Shinn was reckless using Destiny, Imagine Desert Arc Kira using Destiny.

But yeah, that's just me.



as for the topic itself, Amuro and for good reason, They developed him in 3 series, all of them with him doing something that would turn the tide of the battles he participated in.

[NoOneKnowS]

Call me crazy but I actually think the best is Heero (lol). (1st half of wing)

Him, Amuro, Athrun, Uso and of course Setsuna. (dunno who's the best, but these are the ones I thin are the best).

No bullshit pilots. Take any given opportunity to kill your enemies. (athrun loses this one, but hell he's still awesome; he kinda ended up like Kira in Destiny w/c is a shame).

No yapping about killing people. (all of the above loses this one too, but not so greater than some of the other Gundam pilots).

Sure, skillset and suit capabilities weight in a truckload of factor to a pilots performance. But in the end, it's about mentality. Mental toughness, preparedness, reaction to different situations. Etc.

That said, if 00 stuck with politics and war, and didn't go into the innovator direction. Setsuna will be high up there overtaking Heero for the most badass pilot to date.

[Elo the Blue]

It's a three-way tie between Yazan, Ali and Treize.

[SABER60069]

I personally think

Amuro is better than Yazan

Setsuna is better than Ali

Heero is better than Trieze

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Originally Posted by opt999

for the based ultimate cordinator is like you say that what his parent want but what make diffrent between ultimate cordinator and cordinator is more fully perfect in all aspect than cordinator..ok i will give example like in first ep in seed what had he make in strike even athrun,yzak,Dearka and nicol need go back to their base to make OS but kira in diffrent level than they he can write the OS more faster in fight than any of them can..and another thing kira skill maybe skill same for them in earlier series because he did not had any militry training but he had show drastic improvement even Athrun had mention that...see like what happen in seed destiny even he did not pilot a gundam for a two years he skill still not decrease but more increase even he still with his policy to did not kill...that is like if natural will get 5 mark in any exam but cordinator will get 8 mark and for ultimate cordinator he will get 10 mark because he fully perfect in all aspect that is what the meaning beside what rey had say that kira is the sorce of inconcistence in the world...but in seed destiny kira policy will make he got 9 mark because he limit its limit...

Um...going back to their ship to make the OS is common sense because they couldn't sit inside an "enemy" colony where there is now a MS that can oppose them operating and expect to be able to get an OS working in peace without being constantly harassed by something.

This is luxury they didn't have unlike Kira who was still more or less in friendly territory (even though Heliopolis was supposed to be neutral anyway), so he COULD sit there and make the OS.

It would be no different than if Kira stole a new prototype MS at a ZAFT-controlled area. He'd have no choice but to take that Mobile Suit back to the Archangel or some other friendly area if he ever expected to make an OS unless there were a lot of other forces there to keep him protected in the meantime. Otherwise, if he were to sit in the area and try to make the OS, he'd end up a sitting duck with no way to defend himself, just like how Athrun, Yzak, Dearka, and Nicole would've been if they had hung around after climbing into the cockpits, and end up destroyed.

And there's no way to tell how fast each one did it as we only get a split second look at each one of them typing on the keyboards. For all we know, every single one of them did it in their own in different times.

Again, this is just total Kira bias that you're trying to pass off as fact, if the whole "more perfect" bit wasn't clear enough.

[aeriolewinters]

I personally think

Amuro is better than Yazan

Setsuna is better than Ali

Heero is better than Trieze

Exactly, people need to stop the 'He's newtype/coordinator/Innovator/etc. so everything he/she does is not counted' because I can say, well x person plays the badass normal so it doesn't count.

People should understand that it still takes raw talent to be a good pilot. It takes a complete package to become a great pilot. It takes a dash of good luck, skill and raw talent to become a phenom of a pilot. So please, the next time this debate rages, please never diss the abilities a pilot has.

And there's no way to tell how fast each one did it as we only get a split second look at each one of them typing on the keyboards. For all we know, every single one of them did it in their own in different times.

To add to this, Kira never really showed that skill until further in the early parts, where he fine-tunes the Strike to his liking. It's this adaptability that Kira once had that gets overlooked because of the beamspam-mania of the Freedom.

It commonly happens to people in popular culture:

Kobe Bryant for Example: Nobody will bring up his athleticism during his early career, most people right now remember the sick fadeaways he often does now

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Exactly, people need to stop the 'He's newtype/coordinator/Innovator/etc. so everything he/she does is not counted' because I can say, well x person plays the badass normal so it doesn't count.

People should understand that it still takes raw talent to be a good pilot. It takes a complete package to become a great pilot. It takes a dash of good luck, skill and raw talent to become a phenom of a pilot. So please, the next time this debate rages, please never diss the abilities a pilot has.

And that is how Amuro gets fleshed out up through Char's Counterattack.

He's not so Newtype-oriented like Kamille and Judau were, but he's not so raw-skill-oriented like Char was a majority of the time or the likes of Yazan and such were. He's a good balance of both, which is why he's able to take down such pilots of either class.

As said though, it's not made easy because of that either as strong pilots in either case can still give him a challenging time as we see vs. Char in CCA, but as we also see, Amuro ends up emerging the victor after all their battling by having a high degree of both skill and Newtype power. (Char's Newtype power is considered quite weak compared to most.)

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

To add to this, Kira never really showed that skill until further in the early parts, where he fine-tunes the Strike to his liking. It's this adaptability that Kira once had that gets overlooked because of the beamspam-mania of the Freedom.

It commonly happens to people in popular culture:

Kobe Bryant for Example: Nobody will bring up his athleticism during his early career, most people right now remember the sick fadeaways he often does now

Well, not to talk Kira down in this case, but customizing"your MS functions is pretty much standard practice among pilots. Each pilot will calibrate their MS functions so it feels most comfortable to them, but probably not to most others. Like when Kira used the Strike Rouge and had them change its settings to the ones he used when piloting the original Strike. They were the settings that he felt most comfortable using and not Cagalli's, which is what they were most likely set on.

Like pressure on foot peddles for walking/boosters in feet, and such that was brought up in 0083; the mechanic telling Kou about how Burning's settings were set higher, so they'd feel stiffer for him, thus needing more pressure to push and such.

But yeah, that is what I mean when I say Kira's skill was far more apparent when he piloted the Strike in earlier SEED and that it just gets completely overshadowed after getting (Strike) Freedom and it becomes much more like it's all about the MS and not (also) the pilot.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

As per this year, people don't usually bring up Kira's stint on Strike, hate him or love him, which subtracts to most of his quality as a pilot and also why a BD remake of SEED is actually a good idea.

Well, the problem is that many people, usually Kira's haters (though not all of them), don't even think Destiny Kira is the same person as SEED Kira. It's kind of hard to bring up his accomplishments in SEED when they'll just say something like, "Oh that's SEED Kira, that Kira no longer exists."

I mean, what?

So then you bring up his accomplishments in (Strike) Freedom which, while admittedly is not as impressive in some ways, is still relatively a good showing of Kira's piloting skill. But then people go all crazy about plot device and plot armor and beam spam, etc. Seriously, Freedom is capable of beam spamming, and people are going to fault Kira for using his mobile suit's capabilities?

What did they think any pilot would do? Did they think that Amuro or Heero or whoever else wouldn't beam spam if they're piloting a mobile suit capable of that and faced with multiple enemies?

[Rising Dragon]

I think the biggest problem that people concerned with Kira's skill display is the tech level.

Kira's level of skill very likely never worsened. The thing is, the Strike was mostly on par with the other mobile suits of the time (CGUE, BuCUE, LaGOWE, etc) and therefore required cunning strategies to defeat more experienced pilots.

The Freedom, on the other hand, is a mobile suit that's a cut above the rest--Kira doesn't *need* to rely on complex strategies to take down his enemies. It has sustained atmospheric flight, greater speed and maneuverability, and superior firepower to the Strike and most mass-production mobile suits. He still shows plenty of skill and capability, as evidenced by his fights against the GAT series and the Providence, but he doesn't need to rely on unusual strategies like turning his shield into a road block.

And a number of the Gundam fans who don't like Kira will simply point to that lack of depiction and the beamspam.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

I wouldn't say it's the move in general that's bad. Of course a pilot will use what their MS is capable of. And it's not like (Strike) Freedom is the first to beam spam.

All the way back to MSG, you had the Big Zam spamming the federation with its mega particle cannon and beam guns.

You have Lalah and the Elmeth beam spamming the RX-78-2 with its Bits.

You have the Psyco Gundam / Mark II in Zeta/ZZ spamming with its beam weapons.

You have the Quin Mantha in ZZ spamming with its beam weapons and 30 funnels.

You have the Geymalk in ZZ beam spamming its 20+ fixed beam weapons, 2 Bits, and 28 funnels.

You have the Alpha Azieru spamming its beam weapons in CCA.

You have the Rafflesia spamming its beam weapons in F91.

And so on and so forth.

Still, just because you CAN do such a thing doesn't make it the answer to everything, as Kira had to learn against Stellar in the Destroy Gundam, trying to spam it, only to have its Positron Deflector Shield simply divert the attacks into the already-damaged town, yet Kira still keeps trying to do it a few more times after.

I think it's more the fact that they do so without any real problems, downsides, or anything coupled with most enemies (grunts usually) just suddenly believing they're brainless bricks that should just float there and be hit by said beam spams. It's like they never even TRY to dodge the attacks. UC enemies, including grunts, at least moved around, trying to avoid incoming spam attacks like the Dendrobium Orchis in 0083 firing its 108 micro-missile launcher into the group of Zaku II F-2s and Rick Dom IIs on its debut battle and all of them boosting away, zig-zagging, whatever they could to avoid the shower of missiles.



And that's why I brought up that, after getting the (Strike) Freedom, it became far less about Kira's actual piloting skill than it was about the power/flashiness of the MS he piloted. It just completely overshadowed Kira much like how the RX-78-2 did with Amuro for most of the MSG series; a bunch of people only knowing the name of "Gundam", but it seems Amuro made a name for himself since then as he's far more well-known by the time of CCA at least and his name is still used as inspiration later on too.

[Rising Dragon]

Ultimately it's a matter of the depiction not being as good as the studio could've done.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

That's pretty much how I feel about Kira.

I don't hate him and don't doubt that he does have skills (as said, he did show quite a bit in the Strike), but with the way he was depicted and how the writers executed everything later on, it could've been portrayed much better.

I'm hoping Gundam AGE doesn't end up going down a similar path and keep having the AGE Builder spit out convenient counters to every new enemy that Flit initially has trouble with. lol

[creb]

Char is the best pilot. It's too bad being an antagonist means he has to loose to inferior pilots. They should re-write Gundam with Char as the protagonist.

Kamille is the second best, even though I hated him on a personal level. Admittedly, the ending of Zeta tempered my hate towards him a lot.

Amuro is the third, and I also hate him on a personal level.

I really hate do-gooders.

Everyone else who came after are just posers.

Worst pilot would be Loran from Turn A. I love Turn A Gundam (tied with Zeta as my favorite Gundam main series show), but it was by far the weakest of the Gundam shows when it came to actual piloting/fighting.

As for Kira...haha, I don't think he's even the best pilot of his own show (I give Athrun that title, as well as best character among the Seed franchise).

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I think the biggest problem that people concerned with Kira's skill display is the tech level.

Kira's level of skill very likely never worsened. The thing is, the Strike was mostly on par with the other mobile suits of the time (CGUE, BuCUE, LaGOWE, etc) and therefore required cunning strategies to defeat more experienced pilots.

The Freedom, on the other hand, is a mobile suit that's a cut above the rest--Kira doesn't *need* to rely on complex strategies to take down his enemies. It has sustained atmospheric flight, greater speed and maneuverability, and superior firepower to the Strike and most mass-production mobile suits. He still shows plenty of skill and capability, as evidenced by his fights against the GAT series and the Providence, but he doesn't need to rely on unusual strategies like turning his shield into a road block.

And a number of the Gundam fans who don't like Kira will simply point to that lack of depiction and the beamspam.

Fair enough, but like I said, all that simply translates into a less impressive showing of Kira's piloting abilities. But to conclude that Kira is now a weak pilot because of that is simply ridiculous.

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Still, just because you CAN do such a thing doesn't make it the answer to everything, as Kira had to learn against Stellar in the Destroy Gundam, trying to spam it, only to have its Positron Deflector Shield simply divert the attacks into the already-damaged town, yet Kira still keeps trying to do it a few more times after.

As I recall, with Destroy, Kira tried beam spamming (an obvious first choice as it's a big target), saw that it was repelled, tried to get closer, was blocked himself, and then was attacked by Neo and Destroy's flying hands. And after Shinn had distracted Stellar, that's when Kira once again tried to get close and succeeded this time.

[aeriolewinters]

They should re-write Gundam with Char as the protagonist.

But isn't that already Z-Gundam?

The only bad thing about char is like what you said, I mean how many damn times does he have to job against people in Zeta? It's like he's held back, mostly in Zeta.

And that is how Amuro gets fleshed out up through Char's Counterattack.

He's not so Newtype-oriented like Kamille and Judau were, but he's not so raw-skill-oriented like Char was a majority of the time or the likes of Yazan and such were. He's a good balance of both, which is why he's able to take down such pilots of either class.

As said though, it's not made easy because of that either as strong pilots in either case can still give him a challenging time as we see vs. Char in CCA, but as we also see, Amuro ends up emerging the victor after all their battling by having a high degree of both skill and Newtype power. (Char's Newtype power is considered quite weak compared to most.)

Yup, in my opinion, Amuro really is the standard when we compare Gundam pilots. both in canon or practically everything. He has the best balance of all the leads who are either too raw, or too gifted.


When you're too raw, you'd do to much that it's harder for you to do things. When you're too gifted, you'd slack off and it'd be harder in the long run.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

When you're too raw, you'd do to much that it's harder for you to do things.

Do you mind rephrasing that sentence? It doesn't sound right in my mind.

[aeriolewinters]

When you're too raw, you'd do to much that it's harder for you to do things.

I was referring to somewhat compensating, as being raw. Yes it really does take you to do many things, but all in all you're still doing the same thing the other has done, in less time.


Like any argument on balance: I'm just pointing out that there are people in Gundam who are too gifted (See: Kira) or too RAW(See: Garrod) that it's easy to find who the best pilot in here is: As I said, he who has the most balance of Skill-to-Raw Talent is probably the best or at least greater in magnitude.


Also to people who are complaining that Kira is brought up: Well be lucky that you didn't cross paths with a guy named demongod.

That guy made the single, most humiliating comment you can give to this topic:

Originally Posted by Demongod86

rock >>>>>>>Amuro

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

A MSG example of the gifted side would be pure Newtype-based pilots like Lalah. Using a MA that relied extremely heavily on its Bits, but otherwise, besides having 2 90-degree movable mega particle cannons, isn't exactly a Mobile Armor made for combat while she herself doesn't exactly have any real piloting skills and was meant solely for Newtype use.

However, if that Newtype power is overcome somehow, like Amuro was able to get a bead on how the Elmeth's Bits were controlled, thus able to predict their movements and shoot them down, or Scirocco doing the same with Haman and the Qubeley's Funnels, then unless the Newtype in question is also a skilled pilot (which Haman was, but Lalah was not, or Char was and still is), they probably will not last very long as, without their Newtype abilities, they probably don't have much, if anything to fall back on since their Newtype abilities was all they really had to fight with.

On the opposing end (too raw) would be pilots like Yazan in Zeta or Rezin in CCA who are simply just skilled, non-Newtype pilots, but otherwise, not very open-minded on anything like Newtypes and the likes, but when they come up against strong Newtype power and their skill is made nigh-useless in some way (no way to fight back against it usually) they usually end up defeated by not really having any other way of fighting given their "limitations" or something like that, which Newtypes tend to go beyond.



Amuro takes the best of both worlds as both a skilled pilot whose skill was honed since Mobile Suit Gundam while also being a powerful Newtype.

Most other Universal Century main characters don't really compare as they're either more on the "raw" side and much more on skill-based piloting (Shiro Amada, Kou Uraki, Yu Kajima, etc) or more on the "gifted" side with Newtype powers (Kamille, Judau, etc). And if they do also show some sort of mix, one side is usually much weaker than the other. That usually being the Newtype side (Char, Seabook, etc).

In UC, I'd dare to believe that it wouldn't be until Uso in Victory Gundam would we get a pilot that could potentially rival Amuro in each way if Uso was given more time to grow older and mature more and such like Amuro did, but as far as we can tell, after the war with the Zanscare Empire, Uso doesn't pilot again, much like Kamille and Judau also (canonically anyway) give it up after Zeta/ZZ with no signs of going back.

[PzIVf3]

Saved this a long time ago.