[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

I'm glad you brought this to my attention, but there is a problem. In a span of an hour, they would have to locate the (six) people, kill them, and then set up the very elaborate series of closed rooms that happened. And all the while they would have to avoid all the other adults; I don't think that is very feasible. Possible? I suppose.

Even after the bodies were found, Rosa still suspected that everything was an elaborate act orchestrated by Kinzo, the servants, and Nanjo. If she was right, then the victims themselves set up the closed room chain. The easiest way would be if someone placed the fake corpse for Kinzo, and then all of the victims went into their own rooms and locked them from the inside. In that case, they were all still alive when the parents started searching the mansion. After the chain was breached by Rudolf, the culprit could have located all the bodies just by following the search party around. It could even have been done by someone who was actually in the search party, if they lagged behind to "examine the scene more closely" or something. The only victim who would have to be located separately is Kinzo (because of the fake corpse), but notice that the key to Kinzo's study wasn't found on Genji's body?

Spoiler for Episode 4 (major):

Of course, Kinzo was actually dead to begin with, so that probably was his corpse in the boiler. In that case, there's no problem if someone involved in the chain setup knew where the corpse was and decided to make use of it. Genji's key to the study is still missing though.

[Sute443]

Originally Posted by Metaler

I believe this has something to do with Eva discovering the gold. After all, it's quite clear that something REALLY bad happened which completely screwed the plan. This could also explain Rosa's death, since she was the one who gave the hint to Eva. You could say that she was "punished" for her mistake, and Maria had to be killed, since she was a witness.
If that's the case, then the adults didn't know the answer to the epitaph and the location of the gold, except the masterminds.

The masterminds don't have to know the location of the gold. If the murders were originally about money, then it would be more likely that the mastermind didn't know the location of the gold. That anyone knew where it was could very well have thrown off the mastermind's plan. For example:

Spoiler for Theory:

The masterminds were Rosa and Nanjo. Rosa needed the combined non-gold fortune of the Ushiromiya family to save her business, and was going to use some of it to pay for Nanjo's grandchild's treatment as well. While the parents were in the meeting, Nanjo was setting up the First Twilight.

Then Eva and Rosa found the gold. Suddenly, there was no need to kill everyone; there would be plenty of money for all. The scene with Rosa talking to Eva just before Eva-Beatrice attacked represented her explaining the new situation to Nanjo. Nanjo, who has already made himself a murderer, was not happy (because if the murders stopped at this point, he would probably be fingered as the killer), and killed Rosa and Maria.

From there, Nanjo decided that the best course of action was to continue making the murders follow the Epitaph, so as to throw people off. So, he proceeded to kill Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Krauss, and Natsuhi. It's possible that George figured it out and confronted Nanjo about it (possibly witnessing Nanjo killing Krauss and Natsuhi/dragging away their bodies) and jumped out the window to confront him. Or George could have figured it out some other way and been pushed out the window. Or he could have just wanted to see Shannon and been killed as a crime of opportunity.

From there, we know how Eva really started losing it and Battler/Eva and Nanjo/Jessica split up.

Nanjo was left wondering what to d; he hadn't planned for things to turn out this way. Unfortunately for him, one of the people he'd killed hadn't been quite dead yet, and took him out before finally dying. Then Battler accused Eva of being the killer and, having lost her mind at this point, she killed him (and Jessica).

No real reason the mastermind would have to know the location of the gold (in this Episode).

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

your forgetting in Episode 2

Spoiler for Episode 2:

the killer placed three gold bars in the murder scene. The killer already knows the location of the gold. A set of killers at least, who knows how many killers there really are.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

your forgetting in Episode 2

Spoiler for Episode 2:

the killer placed three gold bars in the murder scene. The killer already knows the location of the gold. A set of killers at least, who knows how many killers there really are.

The culprit(s) for each game are not necessarily the same.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

I know that's why I said that. Who knows what this proves it could be that: there are different killers for each scenario or that the mastermind already knows the location.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Sute443

The masterminds don't have to know the location of the gold. If the murders were originally about money, then it would be more likely that the mastermind didn't know the location of the gold. That anyone knew where it was could very well have thrown off the mastermind's plan. For example:

Spoiler for Theory:

The masterminds were Rosa and Nanjo. Rosa needed the combined non-gold fortune of the Ushiromiya family to save her business, and was going to use some of it to pay for Nanjo's grandchild's treatment as well. While the parents were in the meeting, Nanjo was setting up the First Twilight.

Then Eva and Rosa found the gold. Suddenly, there was no need to kill everyone; there would be plenty of money for all. The scene with Rosa talking to Eva just before Eva-Beatrice attacked represented her explaining the new situation to Nanjo. Nanjo, who has already made himself a murderer, was not happy (because if the murders stopped at this point, he would probably be fingered as the killer), and killed Rosa and Maria.

From there, Nanjo decided that the best course of action was to continue making the murders follow the Epitaph, so as to throw people off. So, he proceeded to kill Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Krauss, and Natsuhi. It's possible that George figured it out and confronted Nanjo about it (possibly witnessing Nanjo killing Krauss and Natsuhi/dragging away their bodies) and jumped out the window to confront him. Or George could have figured it out some other way and been pushed out the window. Or he could have just wanted to see Shannon and been killed as a crime of opportunity.

From there, we know how Eva really started losing it and Battler/Eva and Nanjo/Jessica split up.

Nanjo was left wondering what to d; he hadn't planned for things to turn out this way. Unfortunately for him, one of the people he'd killed hadn't been quite dead yet, and took him out before finally dying. Then Battler accused Eva of being the killer and, having lost her mind at this point, she killed him (and Jessica).

No real reason the mastermind would have to know the location of the gold (in this Episode).

Going back to this:

Spoiler for EP4:

Lambdadelta stated that "Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers!" Perhaps Nanjo could have been an accomplice in helping move bodies and such, but he could never have killed anyone himself. I don't know if what she said pertains only to EP4 or to all EPs, but without qualification I assume all games, since she said it in context of following Battler/Beatrice's epic battle which dealt with all games.

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

I know that's why I said that. Who knows what this proves it could be that: there are different killers for each scenario or that the mastermind already knows the location.

I see. And it does complicate things, since we can't look for over-arching clues between games to pin a single individual.

[Sute443]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

your forgetting in Episode 2

Spoiler for Episode 2:

the killer placed three gold bars in the murder scene. The killer already knows the location of the gold. A set of killers at least, who knows how many killers there really are.

Spoiler for I remember:

There's no proof that those bars of gold were from the real Ushiromiya family stash. And then there's the previously-mentioned possibility that the murderers change each game. I suspect that Genji was an accomplice in Episode 2.

Originally Posted by Arachanox

Going back to this:

Spoiler for EP4:

Lambdadelta stated that "Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers!" Perhaps Nanjo could have been an accomplice in helping move bodies and such, but he could never have killed anyone himself. I don't know if what she said pertains only to EP4 or to all EPs, but without qualification I assume all games, since she said it in context of following Battler/Beatrice's epic battle which dealt with all games.

Spoiler for Context:

I've always thought that since that one was stated in direct response to their murders in Episode 1 that that was the only one it applied to. Looking at the Japanese, it might apply to all games, but I still doubt it. If none of them are ever murderers, then that makes the motivation for the deaths of Gohda, Shannon, and George in Episode 2 much harder to explain (either a suicide or a mutual kill would be required).

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Spoiler for Meh:

I already said I KNOW there is a chance of the murderers change all the time , there is always that possibility how many times do I have to say that. The novel mentions the fact the three bars of gold have the winged eagle marking. If any of the relative not on living the island planted that they wouldn't even need money one of the main reasons they are there. It was one of the people living on the island who planted that. Getting a gold bar and making a forgery is not easy.

[Sute443]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

Spoiler for Meh:

I already said I KNOW there is a chance of the murderers change all the time , there is always that possibility how many times do I have to say that. The novel mentions the fact the three bars of gold have the winged eagle marking. If any of the relative not on living the island planted that they wouldn't even need money one of the main reasons they are there. It was one of the people living on the island who planted that. Getting a gold bar and making a forgery is not easy.

While it would be difficult to get and forge a gold bar to look like it came from the fortune, that is not the same as impossible. Furthermore, it is possible that funds could temporarily be acquired even by people who are desperate. Don't forget, Kinzo made his fortune by using the gold as collateral for loans and investing those; he didn't spend the gold itself. If the mastermind was one of the siblings, he or she could have taken out a loan. Furthermore, the servants are paid pretty well and don't spend money often...

[Metaler]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

I know that's why I said that. Who knows what this proves it could be that: there are different killers for each scenario or that the mastermind already knows the location.

I believe that the masterminds already know the location of the gold. Sure, like it was said before, the gold planted in EP2 could very well be fake. But in order to forge the gold, the masterminds would have to know the location of the original ingots, since the supposed "fakes" had the One-Winged Eagle in them. The forger probably knew about this detail.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Metaler

I believe that the masterminds already know the location of the gold. Sure, like it was said before, the gold planted in EP2 could very well be fake. But in order to forge the gold, the masterminds would have to know the location of the original ingots, since the supposed "fakes" had the One-Winged Eagle in them. The forger probably knew about this detail.

I disagree. The forger would not need to know where the originals were, because he was forging a bar of gold from the originals which (presumably) no one had seen before. Because none of the people to be fooled had seen the originals, they wouldn't know that it was a fake.

Of course, if this were true then the forger is neither Krauss nor Natsuhi because they (supposedly) have seen one of the originals.

edit: I should mention, I have no personal opinion on whether those gold bars are real or not, mostly because I haven't dealt much with the mysteries of EP2.

[vendredi]

Hey all,

Have finished Umineko Episode 3 and I've been lurking on these discussions for a few days now - a lot of the theories and thoughts advocated so far have been quite helpful. I've gone through the entire Episode 1 and 2 threads, but am only halfway through the massive Episode 3 thread here; it's considerably bigger, so I apologize if some of my thoughts have already been articulated in the last 30 pages or so.

Mostly, I wanted to highlight some of the Biblical allusions so far in Umineko - Ryushiki07 has really done his research and the attention to detail really shows when you're familiar with the subject. I would not say any of this is super necessary to understand the mystery, per se, but it certainly increases the appreciation for the work that went in. On with the show:

First off, a note on some of the names:

The Witch Hunt translation team notes that Kyrie, Ange's, and Asumu's names refer to the skills found in the MMORPG Ragnarok Online. The MMO in turn borrows these names from actual Latin phrases prevalent in Catholicism. I'm not Catholic myself but I have some familiarity with the terms. No spoilers here for those who have read the previous episodes, save for one that's revealed in Episode 3.

Asumu is a reference to "Assumptio", literally, "The Assumption", the act by which God takes a believer to Heaven (while still living). As Asumu is deceased, the name fits quite well.

Kyrie is a reference to "Kyrie Eleison", literally "Lord Have Mercy (On Me)". Take that as you will, although Kyrie certainly has had it rough in her love life.

Spoiler for The missing Ushiromiya:

Ange is a reference to "Angelus" - Angels, basically. This is quite clearly seen in the role she takes for Battler at the end of Episode 3 - a "guardian angel" that saves Battler from signing away his soul.

Finally, we have Maria, a reference to the Virgin Mary - who declares boldly in the first chapter of Luke that "I am the Lord's servant, may it be as you said." Again, a fitting name for Maria, who is the most vocal advocate of the Witch. Mary's miracle is the virgin birth of Jesus: eventually the one man who accomplishes the miracle of resurrection, and, as Beatrice notes in love - the man who taught that the one element of all things is love, and from where the modern calendar - "Anno Domini" (A.D., literally "In the Year of Our Lord") derives from. Furthermore, Mary's miracle in orthodox theology is made possible because of her willingness to believe in the message the angel brings her - if she did not believe then she would not have been God's chosen vessel. Understanding this is fairly important in grasping Maria's role throughout the series, I believe.

Another theory from many pages earlier advocated by Nagare:

Spoiler for Episode 3 Painted Numbers:

Many pages early, Nagare notes that (slightly contracted for length):

Originally Posted by nagare

Spoiler for 07151129:

...went through the International version looking up verses 07:15 and 11:29 through each book. While I'm still not sure if it is what that number is representing here some verses that I thought were interesting:

Proverbs
07:15 "So I came out to meet you;
I looked for you and have found you!"
11:29 "He who brings trouble on his family will inherit only wind,
and the fool will be servant to the wise."

Matthew
07:15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

......

Of these, Proverbs or Mathews seems the most likely. If Mathews, then it kinda follows the line of thought I had. Someone (*cough*EVA*cough*) is posing as a fake prophet/Beatrice.

I do think the message is biblical related as many of the "magic" are and all cryptic messages from Beatrice have been so far. Some problems I have with this are:
1) How was one suppose know which book to look up the verse if it was indeed a biblical verse reference?

2) If the message was aim at those left, who was suppose to read and understand this? ...My guess is Kyrie if this is indeed the case. While there's no evidence that she has this type of knowledge, she is the only one in the family who has a cross on her clothing and her character profile does suggests that she did not die instantaneously.

I'm going to go out on a limb and advocate that Matthew and Proverbs are the likely culprits for this passage, as many have already noted. Here's my thoughts on theories for either, or both:

Proverbs
- By tradition, this book's authorship is attributed to the Hebrew King Solomon, who was not only fantastically wise and intelligent, but as a result also became quite wealthy, building palaces of gold. In his later years however, his many wives led him astray from faithfulness to God.

-Occult traditions also state that Solomon was a peerless summoner of demons and binder of other supernatural creatures - Aleister Crowley, the author of the Ars Goetia, a well-known occult work, states that the sources he drew upon for the "demon-summoning" half of the book were based on Solomon's notes, and thus titled that section "The Lesser Key of Solomon."

-Incidentally, it is in this book - the Ars Goetia - where we find Duke Ronove, one of the Dukes of Hell that Solomon supposedly bound. (This starting to sound like Kinzo, I wonder? Gold, led astray by women, occult habits, summoning talents, binding a Duke of Hell?)

-Other support for Proverbs as the 'correct' book is that all of the "magic circles" painted invoke passages from the book of Psalms - traditionally authored by David, the father (and previous king) to Solomon.

-Do note that there is no support in the original Hebrew Bible for the fact that Solomon was a demon-summoner or engaged in any of the occult; these ideas are mostly a result of tradition and folklore.

Matthew
-There's one thing going for Matthew, but it's a very strong piece. Namely, one of the characters notes that "only Western magic has been able to accomplish the miracle of resurrection" - this in the whole spiel I outlined early about Maria and the Virgin Mary. Referencing Matthew, the first gospel that speaks of the life of Jesus, is therefore quite a strong possibility.

I also agree that Kyrie is likely the intended recipient - she wears a cross, and with a name like "Lord Have Mercy" may likely be Catholic.

Is all this really important to the plot? Not really, but it's really interesting that the interpretation exists, and it seems completely intentional. It's incredible, absolute genius - the Biblical allusions are *definitely* not random comments thrown here and there, but have very deep meanings. It's all very Catholic though.

[Marion]

Kyrie's name was intentionally spelled the way it is - technically her name should be translated as "Kirie" but I'm sure Ryukishi purposely translated her name like that.

[vendredi]

Originally Posted by Marion

Kyrie's name was intentionally spelled the way it is - technically her name should be translated as "Kirie" but I'm sure Ryukishi purposely translated her name like that.

Exactly - it's definitely a reference to the Latin phrasing of Kyrie Eleison.

[ameskitty]

There's also a cross on Battler's coat (although that's kind of obvious to point out :P).

Fukuin (the name of the orphanage) also shares kanji with "gospel", and the Endless Magic for (particularly Eva-)Beatrice and making friends with humans for Shkanon have both been kind of portrayed as forbidden fruits that signify the line between human/witch (or perhaps more precisely good witch/evil witch) and furniture/human.

Plus Beatrice and Virgilia are names that resemble those of vital characters from Dante's Divine Comedy, a Christian work where the poet Virgil guides Dante through Mount Purgatory to the top where his beloved Beatrice is waiting.

Hard to guess what any of it means yet, though, but it's very interesting that there's so much Christianity in the story. Gotta wonder if it's simple homage to a culture Ryukishi07 seems to respect a lot or if it's hinting at some deep religious symbolism in the plot.

[Metaler]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

I disagree. The forger would not need to know where the originals were, because he was forging a bar of gold from the originals which (presumably) no one had seen before. Because none of the people to be fooled had seen the originals, they wouldn't know that it was a fake.

Of course, if this were true then the forger is neither Krauss nor Natsuhi because they (supposedly) have seen one of the originals.

If that's the case, then the forger had to know that at least Krauss had seen the gold, which increases the possibility that the forger is someone from the inside (y'know, someone from Rokkenjima). With this, the servants are the most likely forgers, since they are constantly on the Island, especially Genji.

By the way, was it ever stated how Krauss found that ingot from EP1? Or was it always sitting in that room?

And since we're talking about gold: Take a look at this article. Particularly the 3rd entry

There's also a cross on Battler's coat (although that's kind of obvious to point out :P).

Fukuin (the name of the orphanage) also shares kanji with "gospel", and the Endless Magic for (particularly Eva-)Beatrice and making friends with humans for Shkanon have both been kind of portrayed as forbidden fruits that signify the line between human/witch (or perhaps more precisely good witch/evil witch) and furniture/human.

Plus Beatrice and Virgilia are names that resemble those of vital characters from Dante's Divine Comedy, a Christian work where the poet Virgil guides Dante through Mount Purgatory to the top where his beloved Beatrice is waiting.

Hard to guess what any of it means yet, though, but it's very interesting that there's so much Christianity in the story. Gotta wonder if it's simple homage to a culture Ryukishi07 seems to respect a lot or if it's hinting at some deep religious symbolism in the plot.

I think this is a small hint... At least, I always had the feeling that some kind of religious/occult organization is involved in the story.
We already have a "prophet", which is Maria. We have a God/Pope, which is Beatrice. And we have Heaven: The Golden Land. And maybe the Village of Gold from the epitaph is something that resembles a Holy City.

[vendredi]

Originally Posted by the_rogue

Hard to guess what any of it means yet, though, but it's very interesting that there's so much Christianity in the story. Gotta wonder if it's simple homage to a culture Ryukishi07 seems to respect a lot or if it's hinting at some deep religious symbolism in the plot.

I'm pretty sure Ryukishi07 has religious symbolism in mind from day one - take Higurashi, for example - the idea of endless reincarnation, learning from each "life" you live until you can eventually make all the correct choices - that's the classic driving idea behind Buddhism.

In Umineko on the other hand, we still have this element of repetition, but only experienced through meta-Battler. The debate is much more clearly about belief itself, and the power of belief - a much more Christian theme. Another big theme that seems to come up quite a bit, especially in the meta-debates, is trickery and lying, and the possibility of "lazy" beliefs - many times Battler disparages those who "believe" in the witch, saying that they've stopped thinking and deciding for themselves (and in turn is disparaged himself by Ange at the end of episode 3). In a sense, is it a criticism perhaps of the themes behind Christianity? Belief is simply intellectual laziness?

I'm hesitant to apply such a reading without completing the whole thing first - it seems too neat, too simplistic for the mindbending game Ryukishi07 has given us so far, and not nearly nuanced enough.

What's interesting too is the anthropomorphism of objects, such as the Stakes of Purgatory and the Siesta sisters - this sort of thing is also common in Japanese culture, but I have a feeling the roots of it stretch back to Shinto, which is primarily an animistic religion - all objects, inanimate or animate, possess their own souls and the like.


Oh, and interesting catch on the "Fukuin" sharing kanji with "gospel". This is perhaps also related to Maria, but it's also interesting how a notable doctrine in Christianity is having "faith like a child" ("let the little children come unto me" and so on) - and here, we have the Fukuin house who takes in orphans to serve Kinzo (Solomon?).

In any case I feel a lot of it feels rather intentional - there's a lot of references, and many of them spot on. I'm not sure if knowledge of them is entirely necessary, as the average Japanese reader likely isn't familiar with Catholicism, but even so I imagine there might be hints in there for the astute reader. It's quite possible that I might be over-analyzing the religious element but it's still absolutely fascinating nevertheless that the text can support such a reading in the first place.

[Metaler]

Originally Posted by vendredi

I'm pretty sure Ryukishi07 has religious symbolism in mind from day one - take Higurashi, for example - the idea of endless reincarnation, learning from each "life" you live until you can eventually make all the correct choices - that's the classic driving idea behind Buddhism.

In Umineko on the other hand, we still have this element of repetition, but only experienced through meta-Battler. The debate is much more clearly about belief itself, and the power of belief - a much more Christian theme. Another big theme that seems to come up quite a bit, especially in the meta-debates, is trickery and lying, and the possibility of "lazy" beliefs - many times Battler disparages those who "believe" in the witch, saying that they've stopped thinking and deciding for themselves (and in turn is disparaged himself by Ange at the end of episode 3). In a sense, is it a criticism perhaps of the themes behind Christianity? Belief is simply intellectual laziness?

I'm hesitant to apply such a reading without completing the whole thing first - it seems too neat, too simplistic for the mindbending game Ryukishi07 has given us so far, and not nearly nuanced enough.

What's interesting too is the anthropomorphism of objects, such as the Stakes of Purgatory and the Siesta sisters - this sort of thing is also common in Japanese culture, but I have a feeling the roots of it stretch back to Shinto, which is primarily an animistic religion - all objects, inanimate or animate, possess their own souls and the like.


Oh, and interesting catch on the "Fukuin" sharing kanji with "gospel". This is perhaps also related to Maria, but it's also interesting how a notable doctrine in Christianity is having "faith like a child" ("let the little children come unto me" and so on) - and here, we have the Fukuin house who takes in orphans to serve Kinzo (Solomon?).

In any case I feel a lot of it feels rather intentional - there's a lot of references, and many of them spot on. I'm not sure if knowledge of them is entirely necessary, as the average Japanese reader likely isn't familiar with Catholicism, but even so I imagine there might be hints in there for the astute reader. It's quite possible that I might be over-analyzing the religious element but it's still absolutely fascinating nevertheless that the text can support such a reading in the first place.

That's why I believe there's some kind of religious group involved in the plot. As I mentioned in my previous post, we have pretty much all elements that consist a religious cult. At least one which resembles Christianity.

[ameskitty]

I'd have to agree with you on that - just how deep it is and what characters are involved and how may be the better question .

Unless you're super-afraid of spoilers (and really, don't be - they're just lyrics ), check out the lyrics to the Chiru opening. You'll find a lot of interesting things.

[Metaler]

Originally Posted by the_rogue

I'd have to agree with you on that - just how deep it is and what characters are involved and how may be the better question .

Unless you're super-afraid of spoilers (and really, don't be - they're just lyrics ), check out the lyrics to the Chiru opening. You'll find a lot of interesting things.

I'm a little hesitant, since I'm trying to avoid as many spoilers as possible. But I don't think there's anything major on those lyrics, right? I mean, it's the damn opening. xD