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View Poll Results: Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 25 [End] Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 69 | 57.50% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 37 | 30.83% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 7 | 5.83% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 2 | 1.67% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 3 | 2.50% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 2 | 1.67% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll |
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2013-03-29, 14:41 | Link #221 | ||
Six Shooter
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: USA
Age: 43
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First, thanks for the compliment Eragon; it is nice to have an anime that raises some interesting issues and makes you think. That seems to be getting rarer these days.
Dawnstorm, I agree with you that from my point of view, the human-queerat relationship is more akin to feudalism than slavery. I have been referring to the queerats as slaves because they view themselves as such. Of course, in both a feudal and slave society the lords/masters could never kill off all the serfs/slaves because then no one would be left to work the fields/serve as a tax base for them, which goes along with my belief that the humans simply cannot exterminate all queerats without destroying their human society. Spoiler for human stupidity:
However Dawnstorm, I viewed the trial not so much as a recognition that Squealer had any rights but as simply arena in which he could be put on display (naked!), laughed at, and public pronouncement of his punishment announced. It was more for the humans, to give them an opportunity to regain their feeling of superiority ("look at that naked little thing!" "he was a threat to us?") than a recognition that Squealer could not be killed without first being tried. Spoiler for Squealer-Prometheus?:
You also raise an interesting point about Squealer's obligation to those queerats who may have voted against rebellion (let's assume there was a vote). Squealer knows if he loses that the entire colony will be destroyed, including those who voted against his plan. If he truly believes in the rights of each individual ("irreplaceable existences" he calls them), then at what point is he obligated not to rebel in order to respect their rights and desires to live? Difficult question to answer. Quote:
Saki: I have this plan. *explains plan* Kiroumaru: But if she can't hurt me why don't you guys just take out the guards and then I will run up to her and bash her head in with a rock? She's only like 10. Saki: But that's not epic enough, we need to see her face when she realizes what she has done! Plus you owe me, I found you chained in a dungeon. Kiroumaru: But what if she blasts me into a million little pieces or burns me to bones, like she did for 99.99% of her other victims? How's she going to know I'm a queerat then? Saki: . . . Kiroumaru: How are you people the master race? My thinking on this is that Squealer realized he had to first eliminate the queerat colonies that refused to rebel before he could assault the humans, otherwise he would be fighting a two-front war against both the humans and Kiroumaru's alliance at the same time. Squealer did not have the resources to attack both Kiroumaru and the humans simultaneously, and if he attacked the humans first, they surely would have ordered Kiroumaru's alliance to war ASAP. Another benefit to Squealer is that by fighting a sanctioned war first, he was able to build up his military capabilities and capacity in full view of the humans without them becoming suspicious. Interesting thing is that even though Squealer destroyed Kiroumaru's colony over a week before he attacked the humans, he did not kill their queen. If he were as genocidal as the humans, why leave her alive? Quote:
Also, we know that Kiroumaru traveled to Tokyo to seek WMD protection, a dangerous mission to be sure, so I think he must have felt the threat of extinction was real. And if you don't believe that Squealer somehow tricked his alliance into fighting, it's safe to assume that the queerats in his alliance had a legitimate fear that they would be wiped out, which influenced their decision to rebel. Really, as much as I enjoyed this story, there is a certain limitation by confining it to Saki's perspective. We only have small clues about whether Squealer as a true liberator or not. We really don't know how the queerat democracy functions. |
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2013-03-29, 14:58 | Link #222 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Trajan I just watched the rewatched the episode
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But the point I think is that doesn't matter. The monster rats are always at the mercy of the PK users whims. So they don't find a reason to kill them today what about tomorrow? It's not like the monster rats can say we will kill humans if they kill us. Edit: I also re-watched the scene when they were talking about the non-PK users being turned into monster rats. Satoru has a few points * The scientists created death feedback to control the society from killing each other (this we knew from before) * PK users had ruled over non-PK users in the past but with death feedback the roles would be reversed and the PK users would be powerless against non-PK users * The scientists were PK users and did not want to lose their privileged status. Could the scientists have gotten rid of PK instead? After this statement I think it actually is possible (although it is not explicitly stated). But they liked their power and didn't want to give it up. All of this of course happened centuries before our story started. Saki then says we killed so many humans...but when Satoru says "no they are not human" I think he doesn't want her to even begin to think that because of what it would mean in terms of the death of shame.
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Last edited by Kirarakim; 2013-03-29 at 15:16. |
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2013-03-29, 15:45 | Link #223 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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(Btw, in the book Satoru says this as a reply to Saki asking why didn't they just add the same controls to non-PK humans. And he replies that there were two reasons, one is that they wanted to keep their privileged position, and two since the death mechanism is inherently tied to PK it wouldn't have worked anyway.) AFAIK we never get an explanation as to what this "psychokinesis" is, where it comes from and how it works, only the rather wild theories that 14 year old Satoru mentions in the snow hut. (Quantum theory, stars... btw, my money is on the quantum theory approach.) According to the fake minoshiro it was originally believed that PK was a manifestation of energy gained from decomposing sugar in the brain (don't ask, I'm no biologist ) but that proved to be wrong. So in their times it appears they still have no idea whatsoever what causes it and why, which means even if they wanted to get rid of it, they wouldn't know how. (I guess they could collectively lobotomize themselves...) Because the guards are wisely hiding wherever Squealer is also hiding? Or perhaps because the moment the humans step out of their hiding place the kid kills them? It's not like Squealer went there with only a handful of soldiers. Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-03-29 at 16:33. |
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2013-03-29, 16:56 | Link #225 | |
Six Shooter
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: USA
Age: 43
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But even accepting that there is some praetorian guard hiding in the shadows (that Kiroumaru could never smell), that still doesn't address the fact that it was almost a certainty Kiroumaru would be killed instantly and in a manner that left him unrecognizable. So it's still a silly plan. |
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2013-03-29, 18:38 | Link #226 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-03-29 at 19:01. |
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2013-03-29, 19:07 | Link #227 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I did realize death feedback was tied to PK but thinking about it I am not sure if I got that from the series are the message board. Of course I also don't think Saki's village can be held responsible for the decisions of the scientists (which happened centuries ago). For better or worse they are affected by those decisions too.
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2013-03-29, 23:58 | Link #228 | |
Six Shooter
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: USA
Age: 43
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From Episode 21, first pic is from 3:43, second is from 3:46. Total of six humans burned to nothing, each in less than a second: Spoiler for weenie roast (click through to see timestamps):
We also have the four Wildlife Officers, as witnessed by Inui and related to Saki. From Episode 21, first pic from 16:58, second pic from 17:00 Spoiler for the boy band breaks up (click through to see timestamps):
Now, I'm not saying Saki's plan couldn't have worked (it obviously did), but she basically hit on 20 hoping for an ace. It's a stupid play, but it does occasionally work. |
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2013-03-30, 01:17 | Link #229 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
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Too much text. I'm going to reply very selectively, so I won't feel overwhelmed with the need to reply. If I don't address a point it's not because I'm not interested. It's because I want to do other things, too.
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History is a string of unintended consequences. Quote:
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But the point is: if you can communicate with them that easily, you have an unprecedent situation. It's inevitable that "being human" feels less special, less unique. But old habits die hard, and people won't want to accept that. Quote:
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2013-03-30, 09:47 | Link #230 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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In any case, you're so firmly entrenched in your beliefs there's no point in continuing the discussion. Quote:
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Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-03-30 at 14:51. |
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2013-03-30, 11:07 | Link #231 |
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Any reasonably complex plot (and SSY's certainly counts) will have at least a couple bits that raise eyebrows for you. But that's really all that SSY had, in my opinion, so it's not something I'd hold against it.
And I think that Kuromitsu is right about the idea behind Squealer's trial. That being said, I'm a bit surprised Satoru didn't kill him after asking him a few questions. That's the sort of story a guy could brag about for a long time... "Yes, it was just your mother, me, the fiend, Kiromaru, and Yakomaru. It was a tense standoff in this hellish and barren place. We had our doubts we'd get out of it alive. But through Saki's wits, Kiromaru's noble sacrifice, and my guts, we persevered and took out the Enemy General himself. It was a glorious day for humanity!" "Tell it again, papa, tell it again!" Satoru's first child says.
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2013-03-30, 16:09 | Link #232 | ||
Six Shooter
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: USA
Age: 43
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And I ignored that case b/c Fujita comes over and tries to contain the flames, which allows him to burn a second or two longer. The guy is still instantly engulfed in flames, with no time to strike a pose and show off his face. Then Fujita goes up almost instantly himself. I also ignored the third guy who dies at the hospital, even though he instantly becomes a mist of blood, because Saki didn't actually see that (she was on the other side of the door). I also ignored cases where we didn't see who caused the deaths (the nurse in the hospital, the multiple body parts floating in the air at the beginning of Ep. 21). From what we are shown, save Shisei and Kiroumaru, every single on-screen death the akki causes is through the instant and complete vaporization or combustion of the victim. Therefore, based on what I saw on-screen, I do think Saki's plan was silly, had a low probability of success, and that she ignored better options. Of course, it worked out for her in the end, so I can't really argue with the outcome. She was right, but for the wrong reasons. Quote:
I feel like it would have worked better to have Saki and Satoru question Squealer in Tokyo and, based on his answers, decide that they couldn't simply kill him like an animal right then (he's not human, but he does have some right to life, Kiroumaru flashback here gives Saki the realization). They bring him back to the village and insist on the facade of a trial (knowing full well he will be found guilty, but allowing Squealer a chance to explain/defend his actions). As the "heroes of Tokyo," their request is granted, and then we largely end up in the same situation as the anime. But that's my own personal preference, as I think it would end on a slightly more uplifting note. |
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2013-03-30, 19:35 | Link #233 | |
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Someone had to take Squealer captive, and the only people in a position to do that were Saki and Satoru. So why are Saki and Satoru talking to him in jail as if this is their first meeting with him since he deceived Tomiko et al well before the war broke out? Unless Squealer successfully managed to run away from Saki and Satoru, only to get captured by some other cantus-using humans later, it's hard to make sense out of this.
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2013-03-30, 19:57 | Link #234 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
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I think that the laughter was so spontaneous, precisely because of that "release" effect: what did we think? (Not that I think that anybody actually thought "What did we think?" - I think it's all mostly an unarticulated uneasiness that gets eased with out much acknowledgement.) Hope I'm making more sense this time round. It's hard to articulate the unarticulated. Quote:
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2013-03-30, 20:22 | Link #235 | |
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And yeah, I can definitely see how Squealer's trial could make it easier for humans to pin everything on "this one absurd megalomaniac", and hence spare Bakenezumi in general.
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2013-03-30, 22:41 | Link #236 |
Hiding Under Your Bed
Join Date: May 2008
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Nevermind how Saki and Satoru have a history of letting Squealer off easy. If there's an actual weak link in the story, that's it, more than anything else. They must have blithely killed hundreds, possibly even thousands, but here's this rat who betrayed them as children, freaked them out and then disturbed them as teenagers, but they always let him be. Meanwhile there's rats who are shooting arrows at them that they know can't harm them. Explosions all around!
Though, in retrospect, I imagine the onus of all that is largely on Saki-and I suppose that empathy of hers is what makes her who she is, and Satoru's crush on her, as I suspect if Saki had not existed, Satoru wouldn't have thought twice at having offed Squealer way back when they were children.
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2013-03-31, 00:28 | Link #237 |
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Squealer doesn't just talk Japanese. He talks it with a significant degree of eloquence (well, if those subs are to be trusted, lol).
I think for Saki and Satoru that makes a big difference. Easier to treat enemies as animals to be slaughtered when they don't speak your own language as eloquently as you yourself do. That being said, I also think that Saki is a very sentimental person. Someone earlier mentioned how she was in tears after killing Squealer. Here's how I think Saki sees it: For all the death and destruction that Squealer brought to Saki's friends and family and entire village, he's also a part of her personal history. He's a part of her childhood. He's a major part of that adventure she went on with her eventual husband when they were kids going on a field trip into the wild. Throughout this story, Saki just keeps on losing one part of her childhood after another after another. First it's Shun. Then it's Maria and Mamoru. Then it's her parents. Then it's Kiroumaru. And now it's Squealer. I think it saddens Saki that all of these people who had important roles in her childhood are gone. Satoru really is all she has left. For a sentimental person like Saki, that's very melancholic. Very saddening. Yes, it's not exactly rational. But then, this is a woman that needlessly risked losing a potentially genocidal war because she couldn't bear the thought of losing Satoru. I think there's a part of Saki that doesn't view Squealer as the vile Enemy General that killed countless humans, but rather as this interesting creature that she shared interesting conversations and interesting adventures with. And she's sad that's yet another interesting part of her past that's forever gone.
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2013-03-31, 21:59 | Link #239 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I'll be blunt and say that I'm very pissed off with humans here.
Saying that they treated queerats as equals is just... ugh! Saki and Satorou should have seen that it is not true. Queerats have to report their every step but do humans have to report anything to them? Once queerat does something wrong, humans kills them? But what about other way around? Humans took full control of them and call it equality? Truth that queerats used to be real humans is not helpful either. What Squeeler did was harsh, especially towards Maria and Mamomu but in all honesty if humans don't learn to treat them with respect, I don't mind another rebellion because they deserve it for their heartless actions =/ Otherwise it was a strong episode for strong and engaging series. I had few issues but it defiantly gets a strong 8 from me.
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2013-04-01, 00:41 | Link #240 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles, California
Age: 39
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Women are known for acting on feelings instead of logic, especially TEENAGE girls! This is one of her flaws, which makes her well rounded as a character, just doing things based on her feelings rather than common sense. She did do some stupid things during the course of the show, and to be honest with you, I agree with the sentiment expressed earlier that "without Saki, none of that war stuff would have happened." but then there would be no story. So, I can live with Saki's irrational behavior as a main catalyst for the movement of the plot. It coincides with what most people know about women doing illogical things. |
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