Umineko FanFiction Discussion

[battle22]

Thanks a lot! I haven't abandoned it, don't worry, I just can't pump out stuff as fast as Renall (I already write for magazines and stuff fghuhgg too much writing!)

Haha yeah, I know it's pain in the ass. I'm also writing and coding Total Seacat Island and it's taking quite a lot of my free time. Anyway I'll send you a PM about what I thought of it in more detail lol. Can't right now, busy a little.

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Spoiler for GBH Response:

How can 'Lion' exist if Shannon and Kanon do?

Remember the Summoner offered everyone a chance to surrender and make amends in her letter. Redemption was offered, it wasn't taken.

Well, basically....

Spoiler:

I think this is an in-between fragment where Genji confessed or Kinzo noticed, so Yasu was acknowledged by Kinzo as his offspring before Yasu solving the riddle. No ceremony with the dress, no awakening as Beatrice. Just 'Hey, you're my grandkid and I love you. Also, your siblings are no damn good at anything.'

That's kinda half true. The Summoner offered a chance, yes, but the author had already decided to write them as vile and greedy people who wouldn't even give peace a second thought. I'm not sure how Yasu would have written their reactions to an offer like this. I'm not sure she even had a good idea how they WOULD respond to an offer like this. But probably not the universal rejection, and definitely not a 'SHANNON SAID GIVE PEACE A CHANCE! KILL HER!'

Renall...

Spoiler:

I can't comment on a Fate/Stay Night resemblence since I haven't read that. I don't really follow Pokemon that closely either but memetic infection has given me the gist of a few of the conventions.

Krauss wasn't unreasonable to think that thousands of goats were a huge edge, but it was still a mistake for him to go piecemeal. He let them fight the goats, then his major demons, then the goats again. But if it has been a coordinated strike of all of his own forces, or maybe hold back the stake since she is vulnerable but have Ronove leading his buttlers... tactically I think that would have gone better. Well, I'm a Warhammer player so I'm used to thinking that sort of way.

Hard to tell if Hideyoshi is more or less competent than before since he is actually HERE this time, lol. Krauss for all I harped on his mistake is still doing better... Not seen enough of the others yet to say much.

[Renall]

Apropos of nothing Redaction-related, I'm actually sorely tempted to seriously do this:

Spoiler for Battler Solves the Awkward 852x480 Resolution:

George Lucas isn't the only one who can wreck everything through awkward digital remastering.

[Zork]

So, I've been reading Redaction for a little while now and I though I should at the very least post to thank and encourage Renall since I'm enjoying his work a fair bit.

That said, it seems like what you're really interested in is hearing what your readers are thinking. To be honest, I've been pretty passive as a reader so far, but there were a few points that seemed to demand my attention:

Spoiler:

1. Interesting to compare the snippets that Virgilia was able to read with the story as Andy is telling it. The bit with Krauss talking to Battler completely vanished, and now he's dead so I guess it's safe to say that the details of the story can vary greatly depending on who tries to read it. Makes me wonder if maybe some of the other scenes that she read can be mapped directly onto scenes that Andy presented.

2. The whole Asmo-stealing thing was rather amusing, given that "I Am Not Beatrice" literally took down Rudolf with his own Lust. Might actually be significant, though. I guess I'll be more confident in that if it continues to be a one-time thing (not stealing Ronove or Satan was a bit curious, since it seemed like she had some opportunity to).

3. The "I Am Not Beatrice" bit pretty much killed any Cassatrice thoughts for me. Too conflicting for the same character to go to a convention pretending to be Beatrice and then suddenly insist that no one call her by that name. Or maybe that's the trick, but I still think I'll wait for a good reason before I start to doubt my initial reaction.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Zork

Spoiler:

1. Interesting to compare the snippets that Virgilia was able to read with the story as Andy is telling it. The bit with Krauss talking to Battler completely vanished, and now he's dead so I guess it's safe to say that the details of the story can vary greatly depending on who tries to read it. Makes me wonder if maybe some of the other scenes that she read can be mapped directly onto scenes that Andy presented.

2. The whole Asmo-stealing thing was rather amusing, given that "I Am Not Beatrice" literally took down Rudolf with his own Lust. Might actually be significant, though. I guess I'll be more confident in that if it continues to be a one-time thing (not stealing Ronove or Satan was a bit curious, since it seemed like she had some opportunity to).

3. The "I Am Not Beatrice" bit pretty much killed any Cassatrice thoughts for me. Too conflicting for the same character to go to a convention pretending to be Beatrice and then suddenly insist that no one call her by that name. Or maybe that's the trick, but I still think I'll wait for a good reason before I start to doubt my initial reaction.

Thanks, that's really cool. I want to clarify that one part about the reading though.

Spoiler:

All those scenes "happened," in that they're capable of being read from the Fragment, so Andromalius didn't change the story or anything. He just didn't feel it necessary to repeat them, even though they were pretty heavily distorted. This is because he is a dick. I left enough context in that it should be possible to get the point of each of those bits, though.

While he suggests he's "turning back" in time, that's more of a dramatic flourish on my part to rewind the narrative temporally to midnight when Kinzo was also doing his summonings. If you imagine an actual story, obviously two scenes set at the same time that aren't woven into one another are going to have to come at separate points in the story. I suppose it's arguable that the summoning scene was actually "earlier" in the narrative and Virgilia just couldn't see it, but I wouldn't take it to mean that Andy can like... go back and add Ange in the story or anything. Only the author could do something like that.

Think of it like Featherine suggested in Dawn: Virgilia and Andromalius are both reading the story, but putting their particular spin on what it means. Hers is a lower-key reading, and his is a bit more spectacular, but neither of them is seriously altering the actual plot or knowingly changing up the characterization (although as Battler points out, he might know more about characters like Rudolf than they do, so one imagines Battler would read it differently too). Now whether the plot of the story = the plot of the Fragment = the plot of the Forgery = what Walter is reading, I'm not gonna say... that's meant to be a bit like the regular Umineko episodes, where it's unclear.

That said, Andy can speak of the story in red. Does that mean he's more trustworthy than Virgilia? Probably not. She wasn't as capable, but she was sincere, and has no particular reason not to reveal anything she can actually see. Andromalius gives assurances that he can read the Fragment in full; will he? Battler's never met him before. He doesn't know why he's there other than a flimsy reason he was given. He's not worried about him, since he can basically kick him out at any time, but he does seem to be pretty annoyed by him. And since Andy seems to enjoy being annoying, who knows what he'd do to keep that going.

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Hmmm, about the static...

Spoiler:

I wonder if there is any pattern we can pull out of what gets staticed out? Obviously it gets worse as we go further into the fragment, but maybe there's another pattern.

I do see that Virgillia completely missed Andy and Cassitrice's scene alone together. That makes sense since they're characters that were invented in the future by a different author than Yasu. If Virgillia's going to have trouble with anything, it's the foreigners.

More problematic is the incomplete scenes without the new characters.

Genji and Kumasawa's scene, and Eva and Hideyoshi, only got a little bit of static. Kyrie and Rudolph got a bit as well, but not a huge amount. Krauss talking to Battler was pretty bad, and Rosa's scene was almost indecipherable. Hmmm.. it might be that the progression of static is an 'answer key' for which characters have changes to their personality induced by the non-Yasu author of the forgery. Rosa is way out of line compared to how she usually is. Krauss is significantly more competent and scheming. Rudolph is a little different, but I agree his bad skill with firearms is not a big change to his 'core'...

But I wonder if we can go deeper. Something in the actual words that are staticed out. I can't find anything that granular yet, but maybe a different set of eyes will see something...

[Drifloon]

Krauss is significantly more competent

Heh, I don't know about that...He was kind of hilariously bad during that big goat battle. Those conversations with that "goat aide" pretty much seemed specifically designed to play up his incompetence.

If anything I think Krauss is pretty similar to normal; he seems very confident and likes to boast about his big plans, but he's really pretty naive and not as clever as he'd like other people to think he is.

Looking at the parts that caused static is an interesting approach, though. I never thought of that.

[Jaden]

The static is actually an interesting gimmick.

Spoiler for attempting to interpret Redaction pt. 4:

What the meta-characters kind of allude to is that Virgilia can't read properly because she has no knowledge of the future, when the tale is written. In the future, the forgery chracters become more distant from the canon and incorporate elements such as Andromalius which were never thought of by Beatrice.

I couldn't find any contradictions between Virgilia's and Andromalius' reads, so both are probably as true. There are some things that become apparent when you combine both of them, though.

Every character's actions during the night are narrated except Natsuhi's, which is curious.

The adults don't seem to be working together much, because many of them at some point visit the cousins in the parlor and ask for the whereabouts of other people.

Kyrie and Rudolf probably came to speak with Battler first. Kyrie says something about going to check the upstairs hallway. Rudolf says he'll go [...] scout out the guesthouse.

Krauss comes to visit next. He says Natsuhi is resting [presumably in her room upstairs]. Asks where Battler's parents are, Battler answers.

Rosa meets the cousins last. She asks where Natsuhi is and promises to go check up on her. She asks where Battler and George's parents are, and they answer naturally.

The super staticy scene with Rosa lurking in a corridor must take place next, because she still has her demons.

Afterwards, those four go on to do battle with the Summoner. Rudolf and Krauss die, Rosa runs away, and Kyrie is incapacitated. Meanwhile Eva and Hideyoshi are just being useless in the basement?

This is like the part in mystery novels where a whole lot of stuff is going on right before the murders, and the reader has no clue what things are insignificant and what can serve as clues later. The only thing to do is to keep track of as much as possible and hope to get lucky.

[Drifloon]

Spoiler:

Afterwards, those four go on to do battle with the Summoner. Rudolf and Krauss die, Rosa runs away, and Kyrie is incapacitated. Meanwhile Eva and Hideyoshi are just being useless in the basement?

Uh, Hideyoshi did take part in the battle too! Remember the Siestas and all that? No idea what Eva was doing though.

[Jaden]

Spoiler:

Oh yeah, he was involved, too. Like I was saying...hard to keep track of everything.

Anyway, what I felt was strange is that during the battle the adults are somewhat coordinated and are going after the Summoner. But, the scenes that take place before the battle give a different vibe, like they're all out for themselves. (The static scenes + Rosa meeting the cousins as told by Andromalius)

[Cheerful Orange]

Heya. Would like to say that you've done a fantastic job with Redaction from both a mystery standpoint and a writing point- it's incredibly tightly written, and the story you managed to weave is incredibly compelling, to the point that I felt like slipping out of my lurkitude and noting my thoughts on what's happened thus far.

Spoiler for Analysis of Parts 1-4:

In order to keep at least some sense of structure, I'll organize my thoughts by topic. I'll also place all my blues at the beginning of each section, so you don't need to read the whole thing to at least be aware of my conclusions.

1996:

On Walter and Jeroboam's reliability
Walter is passing down reliable information, and that (at the very least) prior to arriving on the island, Jeroboam's narration is reliable, though there is probably a good deal he isn't telling us..


One interesting aspect about this story is that we're basically relying on two (more-or-less) anonymous sources for factual information about 1996. Who exactly is Walter? Even if he isn't being deceptive, how can we be sure that all the information he's passing down to us is accurate?

What about Jeroboam? We have no clue who is really is, what his back story is, or his exact motivations. We know for a fact that the narration he gives us in 3-5 isn't reliable, so how can we be certain that everything else is? Though honestly, if we distrust either of them, trying to speculate on 1996 becomes infinitely harder. So it's easier to just say that they're both decently reliable.

Who killed everyone?:

If I were to put a probability on it, I'd say that I'm 60-70% sure that Jeroboam played a major role in the killings, with Carl and Hiro both evenly divided at 5-10%. The idea that there's some outside person responsible, while infinitely unlikely, can't be dismissed entirely.

Cass being solely responsible is the least likely scenario, but her being an accomplice is quite probable.

For the sake of keeping this at least somewhat brief, I won't comment on most of what occurs in 1996, and just get down to brass tacks: who is responsible for the murders on Rokkenjima? Let's go down the list.

Cass: There is definitely a lot pointing towards Cass being connected to the murders: she's the one that really pushed them going to Rokkenjima in the first place, she's the one that found them the plane to get there, all her connections to Beatrice, etc.

But there are a big problem: She honestly doesn't seem like the kind of person that would actually kill anybody. Sure, the whole idea of creating a new series of mysterious deaths on Rokkenjima might appeal to her, but at heart she's a friendly and peppy naive rich kid that isn't even emotionally invested in the Rokkenjima incident: she seems to view the whole thing as an outlet she can use to just have fun.

If we are to trust the personality she's given at all, I can really only think of her as a tool; somebody whose enthusiasm and naivete is used by the culprit to set everything in motion.

Carl and Hiro: I'm placing these two in the same section both because their personalities overlap a good deal, and I don't have enough to say about them individually to warrant separating them.

We really don't know as much about the two of them as we do about Cass. We know that they both seem to care a good deal about Cass, likely in a romantic sense, although this is more subtext. We know that they view Rokkenjima as more of an intellectual exercise than as an actual event.

There really isn't much evidence pointing towards either of them being the killer- the closest thing I can think of is that really Carl might be in the best position to really plan this whole scheme out with Cass, and he was the one that claimed it was Cass that came up with the idea to use a plane: but was it? Or did he suggest it?

But like with Cass, why would either want to murder the others? Walter says that there's no sign of any direct motive, and psychologically I simply don't see any kind of internal logic here. Particularly with Cass: given that they both seem to care about her.... why kill her? Simply because she knows too much?

Jeroboam: Definitely the best candidate. We know disturbingly little about the guy. We don't know his age, his background, or even his name. We don't know exactly why he is doing this in the first place: it's implied that his main reason for coming along is to try and convince them (particularly Cass), that this is more than just a game: that's their dealing with real people. But his language is so cagey that even that isn't totally clear.

It's also quite odd that Walter has yet to say anything about a man dozens of years older than everybody else being found with the rest. It's possible his body could have been close to enough to the ocean that it was washed away (this is implied as possible in his death scene if you squint hard enough), but that seems rather contrived.

Not to mention the whole "Only witches can leave this island alive" seems to match up with him being the one out of the four with the "greatest magical potential".

He's also the one with the clearest motive- he seems to bear a great deal of animosity towards the rest for treating the victims like mere characters and not people. In the fantasy scene, we also see that he's perfectly willing to leave Cass for dead if he deems it necessary. It's also possible that he's connected with the family in some fashion.

But I do have a problem with that second motive. Walter's age was bugging me, and while I was reading, I noticed that he actually namedrop a tape recorder he says that he got in college. Out of obsessive curiosity, I decided to see when that tape recorder came out, and it was 1984. Which means that logically, he could be in his mid-to-late 30s at the very latest, which seems a bit young to really have that kind of backstory. Of course, that's assuming that Renall is as obsessive about verisimilitude as I am, which is rather unlikely.

So what it seems to come down to is: the biggest motive Jeroboam seems to have is his ideals. Is that truly a strong enough motivation to plan out the murder of three people? Walter seems to think it is, and I certainly don't disagree that it's possible. But I'm unsure if it's probable.

Other(?): So we have four candidates, one of whom seems incredibly unlikely, two of whom are possible but not probable, and one who is rather probable but lacks much of a motive. So is a fifth person possible? I certainly can't think of anybody, but the possibility shouldn't be ruled out entirely. It isn't really worth that much discussion at the moment, however.


1986:

This will probably be a bit more tedious, simply because I don't really have that many conclusions/blues. It's more notes on things I find odd/interesting than anything.


The Summoner, Kanon, and Andromalius:
I honestly am unsure if the Summoner is a depiction of Cass. It seems likely, but I still have doubts. Andromalius taking over the show at the end of Pt. 4 is probably a massive clue, but what it means I'm not sure.

So... the Summoner is obviously a significant figure. And between her essentially invading the story, being supposedly disconnected from the Ushiromiya family, her American backstory, etc. it makes the most sense if she represents one of the people involved in 1996. Now, physically and tonally she reminds me of Cass (and it fits with her physically being unable to commit her crimes herself, but needing proxies to do her job for her), but there are a few things I find a bit strange.

Cass really seems to love Beatrice; the story makes sure to shove this in our face. Yet not only is the Summoner explicitly not Beatrice... but she feels the need to disassociate from her in red in the very first scene? The context makes it feel like she was protecting Beatrice's legacy, in a sense, but it still feels... weird. And there are these little things: she seem to have this odd hatred of Rudolf back in his death scene, and she smokes- a habit of Jeroboam's that Cass disliked. This could be irrelevant, but in that case they're incongruities that seems to be in there for no reason.

And now that Shannon's dead... what exactly is Kanon's purpose? What does it mean that he is siding with the invaders? Given how we (supposedly) know that Shannon/Yasu is dead via the objective perspective... does Kanon actually still exist? If so... what's the significance of that? If he doesn't, then what is he doing here?

I'm honestly not sure what to think about Andromalius, but he's definitely a key figure in the story, and his shift to being the primary antagonist after dispatching his ally the summoner is definitely significant- particularly if the Summoner represents Cass. (It seems oddly reminiscent of Jeroboam's abandoning of Cass to die on Rokkenjima, actually).

What's up with the static?:

I personally believe that the static represents a narrative that- while still colored in fantasy- is a closer representation to the real emotions of the parents during this whole scenario.

The static scenes are definitely really interesting. The earliest takes place prior to the death of any of the characters, and they all seem to occur prior to the siege (Rosa's is a bit more debatable than the others, but given how she still has Satan, it has to occur before her encounter with the Summoner). However, what's even more interesting is the massive shift in the attitude of the adults. While their conversations do imply a 19th person, the Summoner is not mentioned, and Eva-Hideyoshi's conversation seems to refer to Kinzo in the past tense- ignoring his "revival".

They are also far more paranoid of each other- by the end Hideyoshi appears incredibly suspicious of Krauss, even though they were working together during the fantasy siege. Rudolf and Kyrie seem paranoid of Rosa, and Rosa is just a nervous wreck, which is consistent with her scene with Battler, but not with her interaction with the Summoner. On a whole, I'd say that this is telling us that while perhaps not completely accurate, the static scenes are a more reliable perspective on the personalities of the characters than we get when Andromalius takes over.

Misc Curiousities:

Natsuhi has been quite interesting, primarily due to her utter insignificance. Aside from helping to "revive Kinzo", she has really not done that much this game, and has now disappeared completely. What does this mean? Is she really napping, or is she up to her own shenanigans?

What is up with Kumasawa and Genji? We've seen very little of them this game, but they're clearly up to something. They seem so incredibly obvious as the culprits that I can't help but be skeptical that that's the only reason. What caused Kumasawa's character to change so drastically? She wasn't really pleased with the murder plan in canon.... so why the change here (Assuming that's what's going on, of course)? In fact, there seems to have been a complete shift in roles- now Genji is the passive, regretful one, whereas Kumasawa is the more active, duty-bound one. Why?

Also, where have they BEEN for most of the game?

Does their entire shift have something to do with Lion being accepted by Kinzo, or is there something deeper going on here?

What is with Battler's character shift? He's far more analytical in this game than in canon, makes much more effort to look at his entire family and understand their perspectives emotionally, and just doesn't sound quite like Battler. The same is true of Jessica to a lesser degree. Did the author just not have enough information to completely recapture their personalities, or does it serve a different purpose? Rosa's character shift is even more blatant, and there seems to be even less excuse. What about her changed to cause this?

Finally, what were the women doing during the siege? I talked about Natsuhi, but... where was Eva? Is she just chilling in the basement, or is she running around somewhere? Because leaving her and Natsuhi unsupervised just seems to be asking for trouble...

What brought Rosa from inside the house to the garden? Just a routine search, or was there some kind of specific purpose? And finally, where was Kyrie? She said she was going to go check the second floor. Why? Battler's explanation got mostly staticed out. And why did she go from the second floor to the storehouse?

Wow that was definitely not supposed to be that long. Damnit stream-of-consciousness writing style, you have been my downfall yet again! I can think of other things I want to bring up too.

[Renall]

Thanks. There's a lot of really good thoughts in what you've considered, and you spotted a couple of things I was certainly hoping people would. You probably will not be surprised by a number of things in Part 5.

...Which is either halfway done now, or completely done (minus editing of course, which is a fairly important step!). I'm discussing with my editors the prospect of cutting Part 5 in half and just doing Parts 5 & 6 instead. Mostly it's a length thing, as it was panning out to be like 10 scenes and the first 5 are already as long as Part 3 was. And that's with what I think is my tightest pacing yet (almost all between 30-40 minutes, which is shorter than I expected for many of them given how long they felt writing them).

I'm not sure I want to do this, as there's some pretty huge "oh is that your game, you scraggly little jerkbag" moments and I hate to leave a gap between those and the "ending," but on the other hand those scenes have got to come out eventually so I don't know if there's some huge benefit to holding out. Except that maybe Part 6 would be a little bit lean... still some good info that would be in it though (such as yes, finally, a 1996 investigation scene).

I hate the idea of it not going 1-2 and 4-5 for 1986 with 3 as 1996 in the middle there, but lengthwise Parts 1 and 2 are like one part if compared to 4 in length, so I guess it doesn't really matter. Plus in an eventual VN format there wouldn't be any "parts." Although God only knows whether I'd need to change up chapter order or anything for that. The way the meta-narrative goes, the 1996 part really has to end before the 5th starts in 1986. So it's more like it switches over to 1996 a quarter or third of the way into the story, then snaps back.

Also I have an Extra TIP in the works, although it still needs extensive tinkering. Did you ever want Andromalius's backstory in his own words? No? Well screw you then, because I'm doing it. If Parts 5/6 split I guess it'll come out between them, otherwise it'd be between the main story and tea parties. I have one other possible TIP planned but that may turn out to be something a little bit overambitious and it has to come after the entire story anyhow, so I'm not worrying about it.

[DaBackpack]

Quick question: are you planning on releasing the final product in VN form? Or perhaps making "checkpoint" patches once you reach certain parts?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

Quick question: are you planning on releasing the final product in VN form? Or perhaps making "checkpoint" patches once you reach certain parts?

Here's the issues for that. They're numerous and thorny, but I do want to tentatively say "yes."

• It's in Ren'py, not ONscripter. This means I can't just plunk down a script in your ep8 folder and roll with it. It basically requires a whole directory and stuff. This is no problem since Ren'py can package itself into an executable, but...
• ...Because it's not ONscripter, it requires including assets. My interpretation of the 07th Expansion fanwork policy is that they're OK with this to some extent, but they don't want things like music being distributed. Ideally I would just have a .bat or readme that tells you to copy over your music folders from ep4 and ep8 to the BGM directory, but yet again...
• ...Ren'py has some issues with that. Specifically, while the JEdit script editor is perfectly capable of interpreting IME and Japanese characters (see Hiro's name in Part 3; the font and script can handle it just fine), it for some reason does not read filenames that are in Japanese. So anything in Japanese has to be renamed, meaning the .bat file would have to like... copy and rename certain files. I'm trying to work out a way around this but it's difficult.
• The script is currently skeletal and set up more for convenience than straight-through readability. For example, all the scenes are compartmentalized with a jump-based menu. It's not hard to make the scenes continuous with a "jump" command, but I don't have that done right now. So you couldn't just click "Start" and read it all the way through yet. Fixing that would not take long, however...
• ...The UI is shoddy, to say the least. I now know how to fix the alpha masking crap in the standard UI and could, if I wished, make a relatively similar mockup of the original UI if I wanted to. I just haven't done so, and there are numerous reasons why. One of them is that I simply have no reason to right now. I long ago determined that making the actual story was more important than UI design, so it's back-burnered. That said, I've gotten quite a bit more adept at Photoshop in the intervening two years, so my efforts to work on the UI might be better.
• I have no art for Part 3, meaning no portraits and nothing for TIPs. Not saying Part 3 requires portraits, but they'd be cool to have. If I did get them, though, Part 3 would have to be significantly rescripted. In fact...
• ...Most of the script will need to be rescripted. I learn new tricks as I go that allow me to do new things with the scripting language and transitions, I tweak portrait positions and orientation, and of course there's lots of stuff I'll probably want to edit. Scene transitions would change, scene order might change, labeling might change, etc. I'd want to have most of that nailed down before a 1.00 release.

My "final plan" is a release version that includes the whole story and at least one Extra TIP as a bonus unlockable. However, my experience with Ren'py on the UI side is fairly poor, and I'm working in an older edition for better verisimilitude with NVL (Ren'py's NVL Mode doesn't look quite like Umineko does anymore, so later version upgrades could screw up everything).

Basically my hope is I'll be better-motivated to do the technical work necessary to produce a VN release once I actually have a VN that is finished and release-worthy. The YouTube presentation has always been a progress check for me, to keep me motivated and allow me to actually release something without being completely finished. If I didn't have this, I'd obsess over everything and never release anything.

Ultimately what it may come down to is a musicless distribution with a .bat file that will grab the music for you when you point it to your ep4 and ep8 folders. Just like an ONscripter fan episode, you will need copies of the original games.

[DaBackpack]

No pressure! Just wondering if I should watch the videos as they are released or wait for a complete release. I'm leaning towards "now" so I can join the speculation

[Renall]

I can tell you there's unlikely to be a VN release before all videos are done. So yeah.

[GoldenLand]

I've just finished reading part 4, and I'll have a longer think about what it means for the plot another time, but there is one thing that stood out.

Spoiler:

I'm quite curious about the use of song references and lyrics and what they might mean for indications about which characters they might represent. We know that Jeroboam and Cass had a discussion about a singer in an earlier section - Billy Joel, maybe? I'll check another time - but in part 5, the Summoner made a pretty clear reference to I Don't Like Mondays by the Boomtown Rats. That was released in 1979, so it might be a meaningful choice. It's also interesting that the Summoner seems to be about Rosa's age in 1986.

The nameless brother and sister had a bit more info drawn out of them this time, since it's now clear that the sister is the older one. Which means if it's one of the Ushiromiya siblings, it has to be Eva and Rudolf. But they don't really sound like them. Who else could they be? Potentially, the boy could be a younger brother of Beatrice 2, on Rokkenjima with his sister. Or...even an imaginary friend of Beatrice 2's. Of course, the siblings could be unrelated to the Ushiromiyas and not even be on Rokkenjima, in which case guessing won't work. Has anyone else got a guess about who those siblings are and what their purpose in the plot is?

Edit: Aaah, curses. It can't be Eva and Rudolf, because Eva was already an adult by the time she went to live on Rokkenjima, and the story at least gives the impression that the nameless siblings are younger than that.

Ah, and one possible theory here, although I must say I haven't checked to see how well it could stand up:

Spoiler:

It would be quite interesting to look at Redaction on the assumption that, as people have theorised about the main Umineko storyline, there is no actual need for Yasu to be Kinzo and Beato 2's child, and that she could be a random orphan. This leaves open the possibility of the real "Ushiromiya Lion" baby still being alive somewhere and whoever the Summoner represents attending the 1986 family conference in his place.

Heck, the Summoner could even be Jeroboam, or Jeroboam could be Lion. It's also possible he's just connected to Lion in some way, social or professional, and that he has some inside info about what was going on. He speaks Japanese, after all, so he could have been in the country at some point, or if Lion was living overseas, he could have met him before. That sort of connection could explain Jeroboam's reactions. Now, what would it mean for 1996...? That Jeroboam was on the island in 1986, escaped and survived, and thus became a witch? )

And totally off on a tangent here but noting it before I forget: about Andromalius, I have to wonder if represents something like "truth", and that's why he can't die and Heaven had a problem with him.

[Renall]

It's interesting you noticed that particular reference. I'm surprised (but pleasantly so).

Spoiler:

The fact that you happen to know it also probably makes sense of why she said it, which honestly would probably otherwise be a baffling response to Kyrie's question.

The referencing is deliberate and also a bit scattershot; you may not have noticed some of what Andy does, for example, if you're not familiar with the works of Kahlil Gibran or Dostoevsky or Neil Peart (hey, it's not all highbrow; his reference to his daggers as "phantom fears [or] kindness that can kill" is a line from "Freewill"). Certain characters are explicit reference dispensers, but their particular favorite categories vary. You won't really see Battler doing it though, and that's intended as well.

The summoner has quoted an awful lot of things in passing throughout Part 4, and it will only get worse (and somewhat more blatant)! If you recognize some of them you might notice something else. Also you might have noticed two different characters reference the same thing on several occasions...

Regarding Andromalius...

Spoiler:

There's a lot to him, but I wouldn't get too caught up in figuring out "who he is." While he has a vessel and is associated with that sort of thing, the demon version of him is as much a character unto itself as anything he "represents." He has motivations and desires outside his "purpose" in the story, and he has an agenda in the meta-world setting. I'd think of it like Ronove/Virgilia/Gaap having independent characterization outside of what they "represent." He does represent something, and it's very important to the story, but he's also just kind of a jackass demon with a strange job, a stranger existence, and a particularly... something... reading style. Who is reading Battler this story for a reason he has yet to disclose.

I hope to release the backstory TIP to give more insight into how he thinks. It might alter speculation on what he's doing in the story. He's very talkative at times, but it's something else to know his thoughts I suppose. He doesn't experience a significant amount of development in Part 5 (at least the first "half").

EDIT: Also consider how Andromalius explicitly framed his own invincibility. He can be hurt, but he can't be killed, and this is somehow a property of who or what he is.

[Cheerful Orange]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Spoiler:

I'm quite curious about the use of song references and lyrics and what they might mean for indications about which characters they might represent. We know that Jeroboam and Cass had a discussion about a singer in an earlier section - Billy Joel, maybe? I'll check another time - but in part 5, the Summoner made a pretty clear reference to I Don't Like Mondays by the Boomtown Rats. That was released in 1979, so it might be a meaningful choice. It's also interesting that the Summoner seems to be about Rosa's age in 1986.

Spoiler for :

Yeah, the singer both Cass and Jeroboam liked was Billy Joel- I think Jeroboam namedropped one or two other artists, but I don't recall which ones. Very good point about the relevance of the Don't Like Mondays ref- I noticed it, but didn't really think anything of it. Which to me, is just another sign that the Summoner might not be Cass- she isn't a particularly big fan of older music.

If I do go back and look through the story again , references will definitely be a key thing I'll keep an eye on.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Spoiler:

Of course, the siblings could be unrelated to the Ushiromiyas and not even be on Rokkenjima, in which case guessing won't work. Has anyone else got a guess about who those siblings are and what their purpose in the plot is?

Spoiler for :

Ugh. I actually had like a lengthy analysis regarding the children all typed out, but I lost it. I'll try and summarize it: overall, it feels like it makes the most sense if they are on Rokkenjima, but for the character portrayals to gel, I'm not sure who they could really be. If these events are occurring in the 1986 Forgery, then Yasu could make some sense, but I'm really unsure as to who the male person could be. Kanon? Kanon has been one of the more important characters in the story after all.

The younger brother idea seems decent, but I'm not sure how well it works. I mean, since we're already playing fast and loose with canon... why not? But I don't know who they could be. Like, I guess Jeroboam could be that younger brother? Maybe? That doesn't quite seem to make too much sense (if most of his thoughts aren't complete fabrications- which given that fantasy scene can't be ruled out entirely), though the age at least mostly matches up.

If it's Kanon, I'm not too sure how to apply that as significant to the story as a whole, though.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Spoiler:

It would be quite interesting to look at Redaction on the assumption that, as people have theorised about the main Umineko storyline, there is no actual need for Yasu to be Kinzo and Beato 2's child, and that she could be a random orphan. This leaves open the possibility of the real "Ushiromiya Lion" baby still being alive somewhere and whoever the Summoner represents attending the 1986 family conference in his place.

I'm sorry, but is there any way you could rephrase this? I'm not quite following.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Spoiler:

Heck, the Summoner could even be Jeroboam, or Jeroboam could be Lion. It's also possible he's just connected to Lion in some way, social or professional, and that he has some inside info about what was going on. He speaks Japanese, after all, so he could have been in the country at some point, or if Lion was living overseas, he could have met him before. That sort of connection could explain Jeroboam's reactions. Now, what would it mean for 1996...? That Jeroboam was on the island in 1986, escaped and survived, and thus became a witch? )

Spoiler:

I've been tossing the idea of Jeroboam being the Summoner around in my head quite a bit, actually. Circumstantially, there's quite a bit that does point that way- again, Jeroboam being the one with "Magical potential", the smoking, musical references, etc. The main problem is that I can't figure out how that fits narratively, especially if Jeroboam is the killer. I suppose that he could view his murders as doing the will for somebody else (Yasu? There was also an idea of Jeroboam actually being a hired gun tossed around earlier, if I recall correctly, though that feels like a stretch.)

Though if he has this deep backstory with Yasu, we have to basically dismiss those scenes where he seems to be relatively (and initially completely) ignorant of the details regarding the Rokkenjima incident. Which we certainly can, but if we start going down that road: how much of the narration can we rely on?

I actually do have a question I'd like to toss to anybody reading:

Spoiler for Question:

I actually hadn't thought about this prior, but what do you think the 1996 narration actually is? It certainly doesn't seem to be something that Walter knows about, given how he hasn't referenced it once, from what I recall. I can see three options here-

A. It's a written document that was created either pre or post-incident.
B. It was an actual replay of the events of 1996 through Jeroboam's eyes.
C. It's an embedded message in the 1986 text that either Walter hasn't decoded, or he hasn't revealed his knowledge of it to us yet.

Let's go through them one by one.

If it's A, that raises several questions: how does Walter appear to have missed it? Who was it intended for exactly, and who wrote it? The culprit has supposedly already written the 1986 Forgery, so I don't feel like it would make sense to then write a more literal transcription of the events.

If it's B, then what was with the fantasy scene at the end? Typically fantasy scenes exist in the narrative for the purpose of symbolic significance, but that doesn't make sense if this is a play-by-play. Since the characters would certainly be unaware that us readers were going to observe this (or were they?), who is Jeroboam lying to?

If it's C, which seems to work the best, then the nature of this confession seems to change radically from what we perceived prior. The similarities Walter has noted thus far seem to be more themes in the text itself and the connections of said themes to the 1996 killings, and not really hints towards decoding this second, hidden layer. And what is the point of using a forgery as a method for your confession if you're just going to have a second story, still cloaked in unreliablle narration, in there anyway?

So it feels like either I'm thinking a bit too hard about it, or there has to be a D option that I missed. But I can't think of what that D option might be.

[AuraTwilight]

On the question of what the 1996 narrative is, I'd like to point out that Renall and I have had many talks, both on this forum and in AIM logs I've posted here, regarding the nature of different narratives in Umineko, and how many of them don't seem to have any sort of 'real-world' counterpart, like much of EP7's contents. I wouldn't worry too much about what 1996's narrative is for "Prime", but focus on why you're seeing it, what it means, and what it says.

On the question of the Summoner's identity, I will only remind you all that Walter is confident that he believes this Forgery is a confession to the 1996 crime. At the very least, he is insisting that it's penned by the culprit of that incident, and so the Summoner is probably that author's avatar.