[Anime] Umineko - Spoilers & Expectations (for experienced VN readers only)

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Oekitarts

Maybe the words were so out-of-this-world and downright alien to Battler...
...maybe he heard it, but could not understand or believe what she said.

I don't think so. You can say that she just muttered it and his didn't overhear the words 'key' and 'six'.

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by Alaya

Ironic, for witch who is hunted for heresy to draw the circle of God. Maybe this is a prove that the witch is a fake.

Most witchcraft dating back to the middle ages is based on Christian superstition, though -- for example, SATOR-AREPO (I sure wish that would turn up in the game, it would be awesome). That definitely seems to be in line with all of the occult stuff that is being used in Umineko.

Also, I haven't finished Ep 4 yet so maybe there are more clues about this, but this thread made me wonder if 07151129 might be referring to Bible chapter/verses, since they've come up quite a bit in the game already.

[Jan-Poo]

Anyway I also find it very strange that in this fantasy universe witches and magic base their arts on the bible and the cabal. I usually associate witches and sorcery with pagan cults and certainly all those bible thumping who hate harry potter and similar works do not think of "magic" as something related to the holy book.

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Anyway I also find it very strange that in this fantasy universe witches and magic base their arts on the bible and the cabal. I usually associate witches and sorcery with pagan cults and certainly all those bible thumping who hate harry potter and similar works do not think of "magic" as something related to the holy book.

Er, well as I just said, that's the modern popular opinion perhaps, but historically it's inaccurate. From the middle ages on the occult has been rooted in Christianity and heresy, etc. It draws on ancient pagan religions, too, but most of what we think of as occultish practices have their origins in post-Christian practices and are therefore very steeped in Christian culture.

This is one book that gives a good overview of the origins of a lot of these practices, though obviously, the "occult" that appears in Umineko is a culmination of superstitions building up through the Renaissance to the 19th century.

[nagare]

Originally Posted by June 1983

Also, I haven't finished Ep 4 yet so maybe there are more clues about this, but this thread made me wonder if 07151129 might be referring to Bible chapter/verses, since they've come up quite a bit in the game already.

Yea, that's what I thought.
Here's what I came up with a while back (EP 03 game thread):

Originally Posted by nagare

Spoiler for 07151129:

Going through that Bible site one more time today, and I noticed it actually did list the books in the individual versions of the Bible listed in its database.

I only went through the International version looking up verses 07:15 and 11:29 through each book. While I'm still not sure if it is what that number is representing here some verses that I thought were interesting:


Proverbs
07:15 "So I came out to meet you;
I looked for you and have found you!"
11:29 "He who brings trouble on his family will inherit only wind,
and the fool will be servant to the wise."

Matthew
07:15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Romans
07:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
11:29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

1 Corinthians
07:15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.
11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Of these, Proverbs or Mathews seems the most likely. If Mathews, then it kinda follows the line of thought I had. Someone (*cough*EVA*cough*) is posing as a fake prophet/Beatrice.

I do think the message is biblical related as many of the "magic" are and all cryptic messages from Beatrice have been so far. Some problems I have with this are:
1) How was one suppose know which book to look up the verse if it was indeed a biblical verse reference?

2) If the message was aim at those left, who was suppose to read and understand this? Eva, Jessica, Battler, or Nanjo? Jessica and Battler are most likely not. Eva is most likely the fake prophet. So was this message aim towards Nanjo? Nanjo is constantly around Kinzo so he may understood it... But then if the message was towards Nanjo who wrote this? One of the "dead?" Hideyoshi is unlikely and almost nothing points that Natsuhi or Krauss are involved in any which way, so did Kyrie/Rudolf write this? My guess is Kyrie if this is indeed the case. While there's no evidence that she has this type of knowledge, she is the only one in the family who has a cross on her clothing and her character profile does suggests that she did not die instantaneously.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Marion

I don't think so. You can say that she just muttered it and his didn't overhear the words 'key' and 'six'.

Actually, Maria said "It's just the sacrifices chosen by the key".

So yes, the words were so unexpected to Battler that he couldn't pick them out from Maria's whisper at first. But later on, once he hears the word "sacrifices" elsewhere, it jolts his memory.

[June 1983]

re: nagare

Oooh, good work. Those do seem really fitting. I like the Corinthians one especially, as it seems to have a lot to do with Battler's and Beatrice's game.

I wondered if maybe there was a hint about which book in the Bible it could be contained somewhere in the original circle that was on the door, but it seems quite difficult to say.

[Alaya]

I'm not a Christian, nor a Westerner, so my knowledge of Western occult and holy symbols are practically minimum. It's interested me that the origin of witchcraft is also based on religions (although not surprising since many Eastern occults are also the same).

I guess maybe most people associate the supernatural power that related to the bible with priests.

[Jan-Poo]

I must say... I founnd it kinda hilarous in the novel that they only understand the murders were following the epitaph at the very end. I clearly remember at that time I thought: what the hell? Are you noticing it only now?
Now it would be understandable if Maria hadn't say a thing, but she clearly spoke of sacrifices explaining the first magic circle, pus there were all of those witch letters, and the demonic stakes.

Pretty much every anime watcher reached that conclusion instantly even before Maria spoke.

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by Alaya

I'm not a Christian, nor a Westerner, so my knowledge of Western occult and holy symbols are practically minimum. It's interested me that the origin of witchcraft is also based on religions (although not surprising since many Easter occults are also the same).

I guess maybe most people associate the supernatural power that related to the bible with priests.

I think that's a pretty common assumption ... and actually, your last statement is a good way of thinking about it. A lot occult superstition grew originally out of folk superstition, basically ordinary people coming up with ways to protect themselves from evil or demons without the mediating force of a priest. So a lot of really old "spells" and charms incorporate Christian prayers. Or sometimes a charm will call on Woden in one line and Christ in the next.

[ParasolPop]

Jan-Poo; Same here. I was surprised it took them that long to realise it.

[MeoTwister5]

It's actually not odd to think about how witches, western mysticism and the like are tied to Judeo-Christian lore. A lot of of the early Western-based mysticism was actually based on the Kaballah and by extension the Zohar (no not Xenogears/saga) and many other writings of the Judaic(sp?) and Hebrew traditions.

[milkypink]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I must say... I founnd it kinda hilarous in the novel that they only understand the murders were following the epitaph at the very end. I clearly remember at that time I thought: what the hell? Are you noticing it only now?
Now it would be understandable if Maria hadn't say a thing, but she clearly spoke of sacrifices explaining the first magic circle, pus there were all of those witch letters, and the demonic stakes.

Pretty much every anime watcher reached that conclusion instantly even before Maria spoke.

Well.... maybe they were in shock? I mean, if people you knew and loved around you started getting gruesomely murdered would you immediately go "oh my god it's the epitaph!" instead of just thinking "WHAT THE F**K!" and panicking? (well, Kyrie might have... )

On another hand, Episode 1 of Umineko seems to start out focusing on the traditional closed circle mystery angle - people start dying (albeit a little flashily), what's the motive? A large fortune is at stake, so naturally people's attention might be drawn to that, rather than to revive a witch or some other nonsense... Eva makes this conclusion at the end of her talk with Battler, that she's the most likely culprit because she's the next in line. I think it was most likely done from a story perspective to play down the supernatural element, and start the game off with a horror/mystery feel.

[Jan-Poo]

Well Battler recovered pretty fast from his shock, it's not like he wasn't able to think straight.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well Battler recovered pretty fast from his shock, it's not like he wasn't able to think straight.

I think he focused his thoughts on something else (theories, possible culprits, etc.) Or he just turn the chessboard over and over too many times.

[Nadeor]

I posted this in the discussion poll earlier
but however, it doesn't seem to have attracted much attention
took me a while to translate these from Baidu (A.K.A. Chinese 4chan) Umineko board
This is absolutely the most hilarious thing I've read since:

Spoiler for ep4:

Battler comitted a sin 6 years ago, Ange was born 6 years ago

That line was also from Baidu
and now this...
Warning: Spoiler up 'till epI-III(Dubious Move)

Spoiler for George: '...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?':

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...Take it off for me, I will go ask for a refund next week"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Actually, I was about to give it to you, dad...will you marry me?"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Actually, I was about to give it to Battler...*Cries*"
Battler: "WTF?!"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...Can you take that off for me please? It's kinda expensive you know..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "k great, I guess I will go ahead then...*starts to take off his clothes*"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Ran~~~~Ran~~~~RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "I guess I should now try to summon myself a Rozen Maiden..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Battler, I'll now give this to you...will you marry me?"
Battler: "What?! Why me now?!"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...I thought I told her to give it to Kanon for me..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...I was planning on giving it to Ange-chan..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...Can you check for me if there's one anywhere on Kanon's fingers?"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Wait, I'm still looking for it...Hang on...Kanon-kun, can you help me find where her hands are?"
George: "..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, there's one on each of 'em, which one are you talking about?"
George: "..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...So she's the one who stole it..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "I was planning to give it to Jessica..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "*Quickly takes the ring off and hides it*...No, what are you talking about?"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...Grandpa told me to give it to her...WAAAAHHHHHHHHH*Starts Crying out loud*"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...I knew it, she's a member of Akatsuki."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...No, what are you talking about?"
George: "..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Gohda's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
Eva: "What?! George...did you...?!?!"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
...

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Ya-yada~~(Tsundere Style)"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "You told me to give it to your lover."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Mom told me to give it to her lover."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
Shannon: "Bullsh*t!"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
Eva: "Wait, wasn't that mine which I've lost a few weeks earlier?"
George: "...Darn!"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...I thought I told her to give it to Battler..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a doggy-collar anywhere on Battler's neck?"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "That's not from me, that's from Shinpachi-kun (Gintama)."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
(???: "ya-yamede-auu~~auu~~yamede!!!!")
Hideyoshi: "I...I can't see clearly...*////*"
George: "......*Stares*"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!! THE WIND IS TOO LOUD!!!"
George: "..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Can you give it back to me please? I forgot to take it off when I was shaving their faces...too nervous lolz"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "..."
Hideyoshi: "What is it?"
George: "...I told her to wear it on her neck..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "What'ya think? Pretty nice-looking isn't it?"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Really?"
Hideyoshi: "Really"
George: "Are you sure?"
Hideyoshi: "I'm sure"
George: "Surely sure?"
Hideyoshi: "...Surely sure..."
George: "Then congratulations~You've answered Correctly!!!"
Hideyoshi: "..."

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "Google it"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...I'm kinda regreting it now"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...I was gonna give it to Ryukishi07...I want him to give me more lines, and more girls"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "IT'S A SUCCESS!!! I chose the options just like how the Strategy Guide told me to, Battler! You are a genius!"
Battler: "WTF are you talking about?! She's F***ing dead! This has to be a BAD-END!"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Battler: "*Raises his hand*Is this the one you're talking about?"
Eva: "What?! George...did you...?!?!"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...About that ring, dad..."
Hideyoshi: "What is it?"
George: "...I'M SORRY!!!WAAAHHHH!!!"
Hideyoshi: "What is it? Why are you crying all of a sudden?!"
George: "Actually...I used up all our family-savings to buy her clothes and the maid-costumes...And I sold mom in the blackmarket secretly to buy her the ring..."
Eva: "F***! You ungrateful little..."
Hideyoshi: "It's alright honey, I sold George as well...Qi-Pao's kinda expensive you know"
George: "F***! You fat old Qi-pao-con!"
(Qipao: A traditional Chinese-style dress, just like the one Eva wears"

Happy End
(The Family has to die because they sold themselves to Beato, and that's only logical)

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Can you take it off for me please? I got the two messed up, that one's for Battler"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "If we flip the chessboard around, I can say that this is definitely a murder-for-money!"
Battler: "Quit stealing my lines!...And WTF's with that retarded messed up logic?!"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "*Cries*Uu-Uu! George's ring! George's Ring!!! Give it back...Give it back!!! Uu-Give it back!!"

*Rosa sits up*

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Nippa~I'm so happy~"
Battler: "What'ya Nippa-ing about!? She's F***ing dead!"

================================

Battler: "...Uncle Hideyoshi, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon-chan's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "...*Cries silently*"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Darn! I should've never trusted that damn seller! He said that the ring gives automatic resurrection!"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Just as planned =_=+"

================================

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "So the rumors that this ring is cursed is true after all..."

================================
Lastly:

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "Can you take it off for me please? It's kinda expensive"
Hideyoshi: "Urgh...Urgh...Darn it's not moving! It's too tight!"
George: "You idiot! Isn't there a chainsaw right beside you? Saw it off and give it to me!"
Kinzo (Hiding in the dark corner like Gumasawa): "...I take back my positive comments about you...George..."

I hope you guys enjoy it =_=|||

[Jan-Poo]

Ha ha fantastic! The "bad end" one and the "autoresurrection ring" were priceless XD

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Nadeor

Spoiler for George: '...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?':

George: "...Dad, is there a ring anywhere on Shannon's fingers?"
Hideyoshi: "...Yeah, what about it?"
George: "*Cries*Uu-Uu! George's ring! George's Ring!!! Give it back...Give it back!!! Uu-Give it back!!"

*Rosa sits up*

haha that was the best one

[Nadeor]

...The fact that you guys enjoyed it has shown that you are all cruel bastards...jk

[Jan-Poo]

frankly after seeing the anime I'm more and more convinced that that corpse is NOT Shannon.