Star Wars: The Old Republic (MMO)

[kuroishinigami]

So, which one has better story on the jedi side? The knight or consular? I want to play with glowstick first and I don't think I have time to play more than 1 story XD. And does the 2 advance class has different storyline(as in guardian and sentinel has different story)?

[Jaden]

Advanced classes have the same story. I'm not sure if there is a way to change your advanced class though...

I played a Jedi Guardian to level 18 so far, going through Tython and Coruscant. Here's my impressions, not counting the bugs and other oddities that I'm sure will be fixed at some point.

Positive:

- Storytelling is generally awesome. Just what you'd expect from a Bioware game. The story flows well in spite of the MMO environment. Good replay value due to the many class choices.
- Co-op missions are pretty cool. You really want to have friends or guild mates playing this game parallel to you so you can group up for these.
- Companions enhance the solo content and trade skills well. If your character joins a big party, personal companions are dismissed to make room. So you don't have to worry about decking them out and grinding trade skills as much. Though I wish I had more choices for companions early on...
- Animation quality, voice acting, soundtrack...all get a thumbs up from me. Within its confines, the game feels polished.

Negative:

- Combat is dull when you've been playing WoW or a similar game for 6 years.
- PvP is pretty dull. They made it work suprisingly well, and it can be a nice distraction, but still...this doesn't seem like a great game for PvP.
- Graphics engine is unimpressive. Undynamic and the areas feel restricted, similar to the old KOTOR games and ME games...in an MMO I'd prefer more freedom and room for exploration. On the flipside, it should run well.
- Artwork is kind of uninspired and lazy at places. Some bad character models and texturework are out there. I feel like Bioware should've done a better job with their budget. Maybe their best artists are busy with Mass Effect games.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Have to agree pretty much with what you've said there. I'd add that character creation is a bit off in terms of body sizes, it's either bean pole or beef cake. Its obviously inspired by the clone wars animation series. Still they do grow on you after a while.

The combat does feel very wow-ish, but its the same for near every MMO and I doubt we will ever get away from it any time soon. Only way I think we will ever see anything different is if someone makes an MMO with a similar system to The Elder Scrolls, where you have to actually manually aim/hit. Still some class mechanics are kinda fun - like the smuggler/agent.

What are peoples observations on flowing from the base class to an advanced class? For me it seemed a little hit and miss, at points it kind of flowed well thus leading you to a choice. But in others you're left a little in the cold it seemed. Like getting a gun with the Imp Agent at the start, pewpew to level 10 go 'cool operative' then notice one of the trees is totally dedicated to melee (or at least it looks that way - since my little lvl 8 agent only has one melee skill.) and go 'bwah? where be the guns'.

Would love more choices with companions early on, and maybe more then one choice per role. Like for example I'd prefer someone a little less ungainly then Khem Val to be my tankage on my inquisitor.

[Nixl]

I would definitely agree on the your gameplay experience Jaden, however, after playing the Sith Warrior so far (level 11) I would have to disagree about the story. I am not going to touch on the Revan spoilers since, well, they are spoilers, but generally my experience with the story has not been great. I find neither the moral choices or the character's generally compelling. My issue with Bioware writing is that they often over rely on (1) twists and (2) "moral" extremes, which may not even fit morally. With the Sith Warrior, you either kill the person in front of you or you don't, that's it. You kick the puppy or give it a loving home. It revolves around action and collecting good guy/bad guy points, which no real questioning or rationalizing what you are doing. I wish there was a Kreia type character lambasting you for making weak choices. I would really love if they had an event or two similar to Kreia criticizing you on Nar Sha'da with the beggar in Kotor 2. That event essentially put yourself, the force, and the universe in perspective. Instead, everything is consumed by this unquestioned all consuming logic of the universe. I am truly pessimistic about Bioware's ability to write anymore after Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 2/3(that leak was...), and especially how they deal with Revan and the event of Kotor 2 in TOR.

Another issue I have is the repetition in the story so far.

Spoiler for Sith Warrior Spoiler:

I am only level 11 and so far I have experienced the same person or group in the hallway waiting to test themselves against me. It has happened a total of 5 times in the course of 9 levels. I am told it happens again in later acts.

If all the force users follow the same, unquestioning repetitive story line I honestly feel that story is TOR's weakest aspect. The combat, while perhaps dull, performs its job. The story at the moment just feels like I am watching the Prequel Starwars movies.

[Jaden]

Hmm...it's true that while there is a lot of descisions to make, you aren't really made to think about them. Especially in sidequests.

For example on Coruscant I made a choice to aid a group of radicals with illegal means, ousting one of the super-conservative senators. On another quest I decided to expose an otherwise good-hearted senator for having used corrupt means to get in power. Yet there isn't really any consequences, besides getting LS/DS points and a different reward. I would at least have expected criticism from my master, since Jedi aren't supposed to mess around in politics.

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Hmm...it's true that while there is a lot of descisions to make, you aren't really made to think about them. Especially in sidequests.

For example on Coruscant I made a choice to aid a group of radicals with illegal means, ousting one of the super-conservative senators. On another quest I decided to expose an otherwise good-hearted senator for having used corrupt means to get in power. Yet there isn't really any consequences, besides getting LS/DS points and a different reward. I would at least have expected criticism from my master, since Jedi aren't supposed to mess around in politics.

I heard they used to restrict quests based on morality, like accepting will gain you LS/DS points, and some quests later on is LS or DS only. But since that creates imbalance in the PvE environment, they did away with it.

[Keroko]

They also made it so that the wrong decision could end you up with your companions leaving you or killing them, but the beta players complained about that so they scrapped the feature.

Originally Posted by Nixl

With the Sith Warrior, you either kill the person in front of you or you don't, that's it. You kick the puppy or give it a loving home. It revolves around action and collecting good guy/bad guy points, which no real questioning or rationalizing what you are doing. I wish there was a Kreia type character lambasting you for making weak choices. I would really love if they had an event or two similar to Kreia criticizing you on Nar Sha'da with the beggar in Kotor 2. That event essentially put yourself, the force, and the universe in perspective. Instead, everything is consumed by this unquestioned all consuming logic of the universe. I am truly pessimistic about Bioware's ability to write anymore after Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 2/3(that leak was...), and especially how they deal with Revan and the event of Kotor 2 in TOR.

It comes and goes. You had one such criticism during the interrogation of the prisoners, for example, where your choices were criticized unless you made all the right choices (right in this case being what the person you're trying to impress would approve).

I doubt we'll ever get another Kreia type character. Kreia was unique in that aspect where video games are concerned. There's never been a character like her in any other star wars game, and even in the other EU media her type is exceedingly rare. As much as people may complain about Obsidian having done a bad job with kotor II and how Bioware should have done kotor II, Obsidian did one hell of a good job with Kreia.

But then, even in the KotoR games you were rarely criticized for your actions, nor did they have long-lasting results save for a few. Only your partymembers would comment occasionally, and that system is still in place through companions. Arriving on Coruscant and having a chat with a servant prompted a comment from Vette quite quickly.

[Ithekro]

What seems odd is that I went from a North American West Coast server, to a European server. The name was the same...the location changed (at least it seems like it anyway). Though I do recall someone saying they though it was a European server when I logged on. My guess is they swapped it from Friday to Saturday and then back again in Sunday.

Either way, it doesn't seem to be a massive problem.

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by Keroko

It comes and goes. You had one such criticism during the interrogation of the prisoners, for example, where your choices were criticized unless you made all the right choices (right in this case being what the person you're trying to impress would approve).

I doubt we'll ever get another Kreia type character. Kreia was unique in that aspect where video games are concerned. There's never been a character like her in any other star wars game, and even in the other EU media her type is exceedingly rare. As much as people may complain about Obsidian having done a bad job with kotor II and how Bioware should have done kotor II, Obsidian did one hell of a good job with Kreia.

But then, even in the KotoR games you were rarely criticized for your actions, nor did they have long-lasting results save for a few. Only your partymembers would comment occasionally, and that system is still in place through companions. Arriving on Coruscant and having a chat with a servant prompted a comment from Vette quite quickly.

While it is true Kotor 1 and Kotor 2 did not all have extraordinarily complex choices each moment or criticism that followed, I feel like it had both a theme and a character that drove it, which leads to another issue that I think Tor suffers from.

I believe TOR attempts to give your character the impact or importance of Revan without successfully proving it to the player. The reason I bring it up is that at least for Sith Warrior, everyone states how you are the ultimate badass prodigy, but I just don't feel like they make a convincing case. It fact, it seems rather arguable.

In contrast, in Kotor 1 you had the mysterious mastermind character such as Revan in the background. You picked up the pieces of what Revan was planning and what he accomplished throughout the shadows only to learn that you are the mastermind. Your character's existence became absolutely undeniable as the story continues (Kotor 2 also did an amazing job in building up Revan as someone on a completely different level). In addition, you had Malak and others hunting you. Finally, you also had a theme of whether someone can change. In essence Keroko, I feel like there were indicators, whether that be the pieces of Revan's plan you pieced together, Malak hunting you, or a theme of change that gave Kotor 1 some impact.

With the Sith Warrior, you kill off all your rivals so quickly, I just did not feel like there was any Darth Malak or Sion to be your foil if that makes any sense. Without a dedicated theme, villain, or at least some way of knowing you are not some random I just feel like TOR fails to make your character or even the story compelling. The disconnect becomes especially strange when,

Spoiler for Multiple Story Spoilers:

-4 randoms kill Revan, Hk47, Darth Malgus
-Jedi Knight solo kills Emperor

BW has examples of successful story telling, whether it by their own creation (Kotor 1) or Obsidian, but they don't seem to be using for TOR. I do not want to give off some exaggerated statement that the story "sucks," but I 100% believe Bioware could do better. They made Kotor 1 and so I just do not see why they would create a story that seems to lack a dedicate theme and villain on top of a way to make the character's existence matter. Granted, maybe the Sith Warrior story becomes better, but I just think Bioware knows better.

[Kyero Fox]

^ play Trooper's story

[Nixl]

I would, but my game is corrupted and I do not feel like reinstalling the game for just a few hours of game time. Besides, at this point I feel like I would just nitpick and probably annoy more fans of the game.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Nixl

While it is true Kotor 1 and Kotor 2 did not all have extraordinarily complex choices each moment or criticism that followed, I feel like it had both a theme and a character that drove it, which leads to another issue that I think Tor suffers from.

I believe TOR attempts to give your character the impact or importance of Revan without successfully proving it to the player. The reason I bring it up is that at least for Sith Warrior, everyone states how you are the ultimate badass prodigy, but I just don't feel like they make a convincing case. It fact, it seems rather arguable.

In contrast, in Kotor 1 you had the mysterious mastermind character such as Revan in the background. You picked up the pieces of what Revan was planning and what he accomplished throughout the shadows only to learn that you are the mastermind. Your character's existence became absolutely undeniable as the story continues (Kotor 2 also did an amazing job in building up Revan as someone on a completely different level). In addition, you had Malak and others hunting you. Finally, you also had a theme of whether someone can change. In essence Keroko, I feel like there were indicators, whether that be the pieces of Revan's plan you pieced together, Malak hunting you, or a theme of change that gave Kotor 1 some impact.

With the Sith Warrior, you kill off all your rivals so quickly, I just did not feel like there was any Darth Malak or Sion to be your foil if that makes any sense. Without a dedicated theme, villain, or at least some way of knowing you are not some random I just feel like TOR fails to make your character or even the story compelling. The disconnect becomes especially strange when,

Spoiler for Multiple Story Spoilers:

-4 randoms kill Revan, Hk47, Darth Malgus
-Jedi Knight solo kills Emperor

BW has examples of successful story telling, whether it by their own creation (Kotor 1) or Obsidian, but they don't seem to be using for TOR. I do not want to give off some exaggerated statement that the story "sucks," but I 100% believe Bioware could do better. They made Kotor 1 and so I just do not see why they would create a story that seems to lack a dedicate theme and villain on top of a way to make the character's existence matter. Granted, maybe the Sith Warrior story becomes better, but I just think Bioware knows better.

I would say the game's story do well as a MMORPG. Expecting it to be like a single player game seems too stretching to me. The story is engaging enough, though with faults, comparing to, well, vanilla WoW.

Yeah, they can do better with the light side and dark side option. But Star Wars in general is based on the extreme of good and evil (with some rare exception like Jedi Knight II). The only grey area would be Kreia but it would be really hard to fit her into the MMORPG game, where quests are shorter and disconnected in general.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Nixl

I would, but my game is corrupted and I do not feel like reinstalling the game for just a few hours of game time. Besides, at this point I feel like I would just nitpick and probably annoy more fans of the game.

I'm not annoyed by well-reasoned arguments, I just like debates.

You make a good points in regards to having a boss-type enemy out there to chase after. The trooper story has something like that, and it does indeed make the story more interesting.

[kuroishinigami]

One more question. How good is Jedi Guardian at soloing? Is their damage output good enough? I end up choosing Jedi sentinel for this beta, but I think I'll either choose guardian or sage if I do end up playing the game. I wish they at least give the sentinel or guardian force push though.

[Ithekro]

Sometimes the choices don't give a really good impression of what you are about to say. I've been surprised by the actual words that come out sometimes based on a choice that I thought meant something else. (One I think the choice to me meant something on the order of "why should I do this?" became "Are you going to pay me?", which was not the answer I was going for (it upset by companion as well, which I was trying to avoid when possible within the rather limited Jedi Code). The "Real Republic" based quest actaully did not go like I wanted it to at all. I evaded Dark Side points, but upset my companion and probably made a fool out of the person that hired me. But, then the proper option would likely have been to walk away...a Jedi does not get involved in politics unless necessary.

At least the Jedi Guardian questline was not really boring like I've heard the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior quest lines are. Imanaged to get to level 16 with a Jedi Sage. On to the third planet, after I got a ship. Stopped about a half hour ago after about 9 hours of play. Only went up four levels today, as oppose to 12 levels n 12 hours on Saturday. Hardest fight was probably the one Sith I fought. I think I died six times before I got him down. And that was only because I figured I didn't need the companion to tank him, I needed him to do damage to get him down faster.

He seems mostly fine soloing. Though they provide a tank companion so you can do ranged combat by throwing things at them or some other ranged spells. But if the enemy is tougher, you will need to get in close to help with your saber. There are places that it is difficult, especially if your companion is down. The Strong enemies or the healers can be annoying to fight. Though if you think about it you usually can take them down, but it might take an attempt or three. (or, since the serve was so full, wait for someone else to take it down if all you need is the stuff behind it). I tended to avoid combat in a few places, just because the mobs tended to be a combo that was taxing. (Strong plus medic in numebrs).

[kuroishinigami]

Well, finished playing the beta with the sentinel. It's probably because I suck and didn't bother to buy equipment, but the sentinel is very weak defense-wise. I was dying like 50 times in 1 flashpoint run. I even died more than my shadow teammates lol. It was a fun game though. Will probably buy it 1 or 2 months after the server goes online.

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

Well, finished playing the beta with the sentinel. It's probably because I suck and didn't bother to buy equipment, but the sentinel is very weak defense-wise. I was dying like 50 times in 1 flashpoint run. I even died more than my shadow teammates lol. It was a fun game though. Will probably buy it 1 or 2 months after the server goes online.

This beta goes until tonight, you still have until 11:59pm CST Monday.

[kuroishinigami]

nah, got a test tomorrow(that's this night in CST I guess) so I'll have to study. I have to say, I'm liking the game so far. I wonder if they'll tone down the exp rate on the real server though.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Sometimes the choices don't give a really good impression of what you are about to say. I've been surprised by the actual words that come out sometimes based on a choice that I thought meant something else. (One I think the choice to me meant something on the order of "why should I do this?" became "Are you going to pay me?", which was not the answer I was going for (it upset by companion as well, which I was trying to avoid when possible within the rather limited Jedi Code). The "Real Republic" based quest actaully did not go like I wanted it to at all. I evaded Dark Side points, but upset my companion and probably made a fool out of the person that hired me. But, then the proper option would likely have been to walk away...a Jedi does not get involved in politics unless necessary.

I'm concerned a bit about that. I'm a perfectionist and have a very clear idea of what I want to do with my character. lol

Well, I still have the Collector's Edition pre-ordered. I still have a few days to decide if I want to drop that to save the money and either pre-order the lowest form or wait a while to buy whatever version I want... I guess it's balancing my desire for the stuff in the CE, the free month you get with the pre-order, and pushing off an expense for a few months.

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by Alaya

I would say the game's story do well as a MMORPG. Expecting it to be like a single player game seems too stretching to me. The story is engaging enough, though with faults, comparing to, well, vanilla WoW.

Yeah, they can do better with the light side and dark side option. But Star Wars in general is based on the extreme of good and evil (with some rare exception like Jedi Knight II). The only grey area would be Kreia but it would be really hard to fit her into the MMORPG game, where quests are shorter and disconnected in general.

I would disagree with you sir. In my opinion, with the amount of time and funding Bioware has received if they wanted to put an RPG story into an MMO they should have done it correctly. What I mean by correctly is to have a story with compelling and evolving elements. I am not talking about flashy cutscenes, but rather more work creating a dedicated villain or even theme. Something that you worked towards essentially like in Kotor 1 and 2. Having a dedicated villain or theme does not seem dependent on a single player game style, which leads to my next point.

Bioware has done RPGs for as long as I have known and for a developer who specializes in RPGs to make weak class stories appears unacceptable to me. In the past they have made stories with dedicated villains, themes, and ways that enhanced your character's importance and existence. I see no excuse for why the Sith Warriors' story is so lacking. Another reason is that this is the Kotor series, a franchise founded on being a strong RPG. For Bioware to make this game into an average MMO at the cost of its story and RPG elements is saddening.

As far as Kreia, I think TOR needs that type of character not for the grey, but rather to create some type of perspective of the universe and your role in it. Right now, at least for the Sith Warrior, you have no context for anything. You are just some super badass who wears sunglasses at night and dualwields double bladed lightsabers while blowing up a sun on a hoverbike. I would say that the most important aspect of Kreia was that she stayed with you as your mentor. The fact that you have a mentor or teacher that is constantly by your side testing your resolve and watching your growth, but also giving a vital context to your actions seemed like a great story structure. It created a unique connection between characters.