Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

That's a really depressing read. Homura's self-esteem probably didn't improve as she lost her only 1:1 fight in movie 3. She needed Sayaka of all people to save her, and Sayaka seemed to have the upper hand over her the whole time.

What the point of your quote? How is Sayaka relevant to witch/devil Homura's minions and to Homura herself? self-esteem? She has never really had any esteem for anyone. This minions are named as negative sides of Homura.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by woxx

What the point of your quote? How is Sayaka relevant to witch/devil Homura's minions and to Homura herself? self-esteem?

Homura has a very low opinion of herself starting from the beginning. She started as a sick girl in EP10 who couldn't fight, and at one point even considered suicide when she was under the influence of a witch.

This list that I quoted shows that Homura still has a very negative opinion of herself. Those are her minions. Presumably she has a great influence on them, and they reflected her mindset. A large part of that negativity probably comes from guilt that she imprisoned Madoka in a utopia, and she put everybody else in there without really asking them. I also theorised that her self-esteem probably didn't improve after she lost her fight vs Mami. In the TV series, Homura repeatedly saved Sayaka, who was shown to be probably the weakest magical girl. In movie 3, the roles were reversed. Sayaka lectured Homura and saved her. That adds to Homura's negative opinion on herself, I think.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

Homura has a very low opinion of herself starting from the beginning. She started as a sick girl in EP10 who couldn't fight, and at one point even considered suicide when she was under the influence of a witch.

This list that I quoted shows that Homura still has a very negative opinion of herself. Those are her minions. Presumably she has a great influence on them, and they reflected her mindset. A large part of that negativity probably comes from guilt that she imprisoned Madoka in a utopia, and she put everybody else in there without really asking them. I also theorised that her self-esteem probably didn't improve after she lost her fight vs Mami.

That's right. I edited my previous post a bit.

Originally Posted by Monoriu

In the TV series, Homura repeatedly saved Sayaka, who was shown to be probably the weakest magical girl.

Never happened.
She said like 100 times, she doesn't care about Sayaka. She was doomed anyway. Sayaka was just a huge drag to her goal to rescue Madoka.
In 8th episode she was seriosly going to kill her to end her suffering and prevent turning into a witch, because Madoka worried about her too much.

In the end of Rebellion, devil Homura wiped off Sayaka's memories and all her relations with Madoka, because Sayaka could be a threat again and she just hates her.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by woxx

she just hates her.

I don't think so. If that was the case she would have killed her right there. Homura doesn't like her, of course, and probably doesn't like Mami either, but I doubt she truly hates anyone (well, maybe she hates QB...), and I actually think she does care about them to some extent.

Also, I kinda agree with Monoriu that being saved by Sayaka might have contributed to her lack of self-esteem. Although I think being saved by Madoka (again) must have been much worse in that respect.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by woxx

Never happened.
She said like 100 times, she doesn't care about Sayaka. She was doomed anyway. Sayaka was just a huge drag to her goal to rescue Madoka.
In 8th she was seriosly going to kill her to end her suffering, because Madoka worried about her too much.

In the end of Rebellion, devil Homura wiped off Sayaka's memories and all her relations with Madoka, because she could be a threat again and she just hates her.

That's a bit different from my own interpretation. Homura doesn't really get along with Sayaka, that's true. But I won't go so far as to say that Homura hates her. If Homura really hates her, she can do all sorts of things to make Sayaka's life miserable with her devil powers. Instead, Homura chose to change her memories in such a way that Sayaka admitted on screen that she was happy. She ended up being together with Kyoko in the end, thanks to Homura's magic again. Sayaka is part of Homura's illusionary dream world. In the best case scenario for Homura, Sayaka is part of her team.

I know there is no conclusive evidence either way, but my reading is that Homura's death threat to Sayaka in EP8 was just that, a threat. If Homura really wanted to kill Sayaka, nothing could stop her. Keep in mind that Homura also threatened Madoka in EP6. Did she carry out her threat? No. Homura always choose to use harsh words and maintain a tough as balls exterior. She is a very different person deep down. Claiming to be the devil, while making sure that everybody has a happy life is a blatent example of that.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

That's a bit different from my own interpretation. Homura doesn't really get along with Sayaka, that's true. But I won't go so far as to say that Homura hates her. If Homura really hates her, she can do all sorts of things to make Sayaka's life miserable with her devil powers. Instead, Homura chose to change her memories in such a way that Sayaka admitted on screen that she was happy. She ended up being together with Kyoko in the end, thanks to Homura's magic again. Sayaka is part of Homura's illusionary dream world. In the best case scenario for Homura, Sayaka is part of her team.

I know there is no conclusive evidence either way, but my reading is that Homura's death threat to Sayaka in EP8 was just that, a threat. If Homura really wanted to kill Sayaka, nothing could stop her. Keep in mind that Homura also threatened Madoka in EP6. Did she carry out her threat? No. Homura always choose to use harsh words and maintain a tough as balls exterior. She is a very different person deep down. Claiming to be the devil, while making sure that everybody has a happy life is a blatent example of that.

Well, that's interpretations and speculations only. Homura's personality is still unclear. It's hard to say, if she is really evil or not.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by woxx

Well, that's interpretations and speculations only. Homura's personality is still unclear. It's hard to say, if she is really evil or not.

Well, of course. I think it is left deliberately vague so that the show creators can do whatever they want to do in the next story. We can only work with whatever material we have. Homura has done some questionable actions, mainly because she didn't get Madoka or anybody's agreement before she changed their circumstances. But she is also remarkably reasonable about the way she does it. Misguided, perhaps. Evil, I say no. Not based on the evidence that we have.

[Triple_R]

Mami's victory over Homura in the movie was pretty decisive, it happened in spite of heavy use of Homura's time-hax abilities, and it happened in spite of Homura having more memories than Mami did. And then Homura had to be rescued by Sayaka, who like Mami was able to surprise Homura by overcoming Homura's time-hax abilities. Twice in quick succession other Puella Magi managed to find very effective workarounds for Homura's time-hax ability, which is supposed to be Homura's trump card.

Soundly defeated by a less knowledgeable Mami, and totally outmaneuvered by Sayaka.

Yes, this probably wasn't very good for Homura's self-esteem.


As for Homura's feelings for the other characters...

Well, this was Homura's dreamworld, and in that dreamworld she was part of a full five-member Puella Magi team. She clearly sucked the real Mami, Kyouko, Madoka's family, Hitomi, and Kyousuke into this dreamworld. This suggests that Homura has a certain attachment to this overall setting, and key players from her various loops.

I think her feelings for Madoka's family is largely positive. I think her feelings for other Puella Magi (other than Madoka) is ambivalence. She no doubt is annoyed by Sayaka, Mami, and Kyouko due to the complications that they unwittingly caused her in her attempts to save Madoka. At the same time, I don't think that Homura can bring herself to hate someone that Madoka loves (aside from moments of jealousy, perhaps ).

"If Madoka loves this person, then there must be some good in this person" is probably how Homura views it, deep down inside. So combine this with annoyance, and the overall effect is ambivalence. It's kind of like having an in-law that you find kinda annoying, but your spouse loves that in-law, so you try to see the good in that in-law and get along with that person for the greater good.

[night_sentinel]

Regarding Homura, I actually think that she cares about the characters. Yes. Even Sayaka. Despite all the evil impersonation and uncaring posturing that Homura did in the series and the movie, I have yet to see her take an action that will be bad for the others. And for me actions speak louder than words ever do.

Really, the fact that her witch barrier is pretty much our favorite characters' ideal world pretty much sealed the deal for me. Witch barriers are supposed to be reflection of what the Puella Magi want or consider the most important. What does it tell us when Homura's witch barrier is dedicated to making Madoka, Mami, Sayaka and Kyouko and pretty much the named cast happy? ^^

Heck, one of the psp game ending showed that Homura's happy ending is for everyone to live past Walpurgis and share tea with one another.


As for the Mami vs. Homura.

I actually thought that it showed how much Homura improved. Remember guys, Mami is connected to Homura via ribbon which means Homura's time hax is unusable during the entire fight. And yet despite this disadvantage, Homura was still able to fight Mami more or less evenly with gun-fu.

Considering that Homura supposedly started as the weakest Puella Magi barring her magic stat (Time hax). This just shows she has come a long way.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by night_sentinel

Btw, I just read this but is Homura's witch form changed?


The Nutcracker Witch. Its nature is self-sufficiency. Its gallant form, which once split many nuts, is now useless. Without any other purpose, this witch's last wish is her own execution. However, a mere decapitation will not clear away the witch's sins. This foolish witch will forever remain in this realm, repeating the procession to her execution.

Which makes sense given the context of the movie. But, what about Homulily? Non-canon?

Witches are determined by what the Magical Girl is feeling at their darkest moment, so there's going to be differences, as the two iterations of Homulilly are created under different circumstances. Kind of like how in some timelines, Octavia had different familiars and a rock motif because Kyousuke was a guitarist.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Kind of like how in some timelines, Octavia had different familiars and a rock motif because Kyousuke was a guitarist.

Where did this happen? I mean, in what Madoka Magica spin-off work?

[GDB]

I was wondering the same. Thus far, the only differences we've seen in witches were Madoka, who became stronger (and possibly used a different wish, thus generating slightly different powers) each time.

Homura can easily be explained by either her alternate powers in the new universe, or by just saying the former was non-canon.

[MYWA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Soundly defeated by a less knowledgeable Mami, and totally outmaneuvered by Sayaka.

To be fair, Homura was only halfway out-manoeuvred by Sayaka: she tried stopping time the first time and Sayaka put the kibosh on that with her cutlass, but when Sayaka tried that the second time, it was Homura who wasn't having it and kicked her away. So they didn't nerf Homura too badly; she's still got her fighting chops. Sayaka was fast enough to somehow escape her time freeze, though.

Originally Posted by Monoriu

Homura has a very low opinion of herself starting from the beginning. She started as a sick girl in EP10 who couldn't fight, and at one point even considered suicide when she was under the influence of a witch.

This list that I quoted shows that Homura still has a very negative opinion of herself. Those are her minions. Presumably she has a great influence on them, and they reflected her mindset. A large part of that negativity probably comes from guilt that she imprisoned Madoka in a utopia, and she put everybody else in there without really asking them. I also theorised that her self-esteem probably didn't improve after she lost her fight vs Mami. In the TV series, Homura repeatedly saved Sayaka, who was shown to be probably the weakest magical girl. In movie 3, the roles were reversed. Sayaka lectured Homura and saved her. That adds to Homura's negative opinion on herself, I think.

Frankly, I don't think Homura's self-esteem is such that it would be affected by losing to Mami or having Sayaka saving her. For one thing, she's not so small a person that such things would bother her much. She just doesn't care, because she doesn't care about a litany of things, and being saved by someone you don't get along with is just one of those things. Also, Homura's far too utilitarian in her outlook and too straight-forward a character for her self-esteem to be considered this way. It's simple: Homura was weak, she became strong, and she is confident in her strength and abilities (to the point of near-complete self-reliance), but I think it's obvious that she doesn't draw any great deal of worth or self-esteem from these things in-and-of themselves. It's all just too blasé for her.

In fact, I don't see why Homura's self-worth or happiness would change much. The very few things in life that make her happy seem to begin and end with Madoka, and unlike Madoka, she doesn't gain anything from being a magical girl - just the opposite. She's also continuously failed time and again to save Madoka, despite becoming incredibly skilled and knowledgeable. But most of all, her travails have only served to stunt her personal development, as Homura still relates to people as poorly as Moemura did, she's just now a lot less awkward and a lot more brutal about it.

Originally Posted by night_sentinel

Regarding Homura, I actually think that she cares about the characters. Yes. Even Sayaka. Despite all the evil impersonation and uncaring posturing that Homura did in the series and the movie, I have yet to see her take an action that will be bad for the others. And for me actions speak louder than words ever do.

Really, the fact that her witch barrier is pretty much our favorite characters' ideal world pretty much sealed the deal for me. Witch barriers are supposed to be reflection of what the Puella Magi want or consider the most important. What does it tell us when Homura's witch barrier is dedicated to making Madoka, Mami, Sayaka and Kyouko and pretty much the named cast happy? ^^

I agree that she cares about the other characters...at least to a degree. I would say she respects Mami for her skill and seniority, despite her naiveté. I also like to think values Mami as having once been her sensei. She also respects Kyoko for her skills and tenacity, despite her viciousness (in most timelines). Unfortunately, she seems to neither likes nor respects Sayaka, and she's probably all jelly over the latter's friendship to Madoka in later timelines. I like to think that changed a bit in the third movie.

In any case, I for one welcome our new demonic overlord!

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Where did this happen? I mean, in what Madoka Magica spin-off work?

Third-timeline Octavia has Hitomi familiars and a laser lightshow motif instead of a classical sound hall theatre one, and Urobuchi's gone on record that he wanted to do things like have Kyousuke be a guitarist in some timelines, but Episode 10's screenplay had to be shortened to fit the requested timeslot.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by MYWA

I agree that she cares about the other characters...at least to a degree. I would say she respects Mami for her skill and seniority, despite her naiveté. I also like to think values Mami as having once been her sensei. She also respects Kyoko for her skills and tenacity, despite her viciousness (in most timelines). Unfortunately, she seems to neither likes nor respects Sayaka, and she's probably all jelly over the latter's friendship to Madoka in later timelines. I like to think that changed a bit in the third movie.

In any case, I for one welcome our new demonic overlord!

Agree that Homura cares about all the others. Mami saved her life with Madoka back in EP10, and she was the person who taught Homura the initial skills and knowledge about being a magical girl. Kyoko is Homura's best and probably only option for an ally. Homura doesn't want to tell Madoka her real worries. She doesn't get along with Sayaka. She can't reveal the truth to Mami, who doesn't react well to say the least. Homura always approaches Kyoko if she needs a partner in her plans, although Homura likes to flash step Kyoko in the TV series to make sure Kyoko knows who the boss is.

[MYWA]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

Homura always approaches Kyoko if she needs a partner in her plans, although Homura likes to flash step Kyoko in the TV series to make sure Kyoko knows who the boss is.

I loved it when she flash-stepped Kyoko and come out of nowhere. Such a troll.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Third-timeline Octavia has Hitomi familiars and a laser lightshow motif instead of a classical sound hall theatre one, and Urobuchi's gone on record that he wanted to do things like have Kyousuke be a guitarist in some timelines, but Episode 10's screenplay had to be shortened to fit the requested timeslot.

Which... doesn't really make sense? It's not like Kyousuke picked an instrument between the time Homura woke up in the hospital and when Sayaka made her wish. From the way it was presented, he'd been playing the violin for years.

[RobotCat]

Originally Posted by GDB

Which... doesn't really make sense? It's not like Kyousuke picked an instrument between the time Homura woke up in the hospital and when Sayaka made her wish. From the way it was presented, he'd been playing the violin for years.

That's because Homura doesn't actually time travel, she literally jumps into another pre-existing alternate universe, which means there are differences she cannot control.

I'm guessing she merges with the Homura present in that timeline, just like how she merged with the Homura in the new timeline at the end of the tv series when she's dropped back to the new universe from the higher plane of existence.

The idea that she might have killed off the existing Homura in the universe she goes to is a bit too grim even for someone like Urobuchi.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by MYWA

I loved it when she flash-stepped Kyoko and come out of nowhere. Such a troll.

Homura only does it to Kyoko. My theory is that Homura knows from experience that flash stepping is necessary to keep Kyoko in line, given Kyoko's aggressive personality. If Kyoko doesn't know how Homura's powers work, she is not likely to challenge Homura.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by GDB

Which... doesn't really make sense? It's not like Kyousuke picked an instrument between the time Homura woke up in the hospital and when Sayaka made her wish. From the way it was presented, he'd been playing the violin for years.

Even putting that aside, violin vs. guitar is a pretty big difference. They're two very different instruments that appeal to very different musical tastes. Kyousuke really struck me as a somewhat refined classical music guy. His personality and mannerisms gives me that feel. I have a very hard time imagining the guy as a literal rock-star.

Also, Sayaka has a love for classical music in general. I'd rather think that said love is due to her own taste in music, and not purely due to the Kyousuke effect. If Sayaka becomes a fan of whatever Kyousuke happens to play then it makes it seem like her taste in music is purely due to him, which is not an interpretation I'm fond of.