[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[izmosmolnar]

As I said it's already uploaded both by Roger, and both by Crazy and Chrono, so there's no need to UL it for the third time. However I reckon it'd be beneficial to include a link to one of these in the opening posts.

[rogerpepitone]

Does anybody know of a good free webhost? With geocities closing down in a few months, those pages aren't going to stay up for long.

[Rei-Tenshi]

When Battler said to Beatrice "I will kill you", was that in red?

[ClockWorkAngel]

No, it was the other way around, Beato said that I will kill you Battler.

[Klashikari]

Absolutely not. Rei-Tenshi is talking about the "I will kill you" image text (and it is indeed Battler who declare that he will kill Beatrice).
There is absolutely nothing that state if it is red, because of being "red truth" or if it is red, for shock purpose.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Does anybody know of a good free webhost? With geocities closing down in a few months, those pages aren't going to stay up for long.

Google Sites?

[Marion]

Rewatching the 2nd episode of the show I wonder if the giant symbol on the shed was drawn before the murders were even done? Before evening time it wasn't raining at all, and it didn't look very messy or anything. Maybe the culprit or an accomplice drew it beforehand? If so they would need to do it after Kanon went to put away the fertilizer - but then again, Kanon himself could have easily drew it, assuming no one went to the shed after him.

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by Marion

Rewatching the 2nd episode of the show I wonder if the giant symbol on the shed was drawn before the murders were even done? Before evening time it wasn't raining at all, and it didn't look very messy or anything. Maybe the culprit or an accomplice drew it beforehand? If so they would need to do it after Kanon went to put away the fertilizer - but then again, Kanon himself could have easily drew it, assuming no one went to the shed after him.

All things considered, Kanon is easily the most suspicious person in Episode 1. So it would not be much of a surprise if he did turn out to be the one who drew it, or was being assisted by the person who drew it.

... Now that I think about it, Nanjo is easily the most likely culprit for being the symbol artist. They only appear if he's still alive. Episode 2 seems to counter this, but his death was not confirmed until after George and co died. If the killer had him and Kumasawa go hide somewhere after tossing some fake blood around in the servant's quarters, he could have simply killed him and Kumasawa after having him draw the symbol on Natsuhi's door. If that were the case, the twilights were in the correct order.

However, I think the numbers on the parlor door in Episode 3 were added by someone else. Or one of Nanjo's accomplices was still alive and ordered him to do it. Dunno why, but maybe it was supposed to get a reaction out of Battler or someone.

[Knicknevin]

You know, I've been thinking about those cases full of money that Ange found out about, and had a thought.

Let's say one fine day as Nanjo is going about his business, someone comes along and offers him a rather sadistic deal- Nanjo helps to carry out a crime spree, which might result in his death, but 100 million yen will be sent to his family. He's got a sick grandchild after all, right? You wouldn't regret sacrificing your remaining years to save them, would you? Genji and Kumasawa might have their own weak points that a clever person might coerce them with. And for all we know the dealer warns that if the person talks, or doesn't cooperate, their families might be at risk instead. Gohda doesn't seem old enough to go for the whole 'die with no regrets' deal, but we don't really know anything about him. Or Kanon or Shannon for that matter, but they could be the coercers for that all we know.

By this line of thought, most or all of the servants, and Nanjo, could be working together or maybe with another person, to carry out all the crimes. And those that took the bribes know going in they'll probably die. The rest might just be good acting and hoping for the best.

[Christen]

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

He's got a sick grandchild after all, right? You wouldn't regret sacrificing your remaining years to save them, would you?

You do remember Nanjo begging for his life and reasoning that he has a sick grandchild right?

If we go by Nanjo being an accomplice, we can probably deduce that whoever killed Nanjo isn't involved with the culprits. Nanjo didn't expect to be killed. Rather, some people outside of the original plan could have had their own agenda, or somehow intercepted the culprits.

[yangxu]

Anyone thinks that the food these folks ate when they arrived at Rokkenjima actually had something in it that induced moderate to severe degree of hallucinations in a time-dependent manner? Kinzo practices alchemy, and Nanjo is a doctor, Kinzo's servants do what they are told to do. If the servants were the ones preparing the food in the kitchen, there should be plenty of chances for them to add god knows what (products from Kinzo/Nanjo's research) in there as instructed by Kinzo or Nanjo. The drug's effect might grow stronger as time passes by as demonstrated by each character's increasing paranoia near the end of the story.

[Marion]

According to EP 4 when Ange visits Nanjo's son and he's introduced, we're told that Nanjo's granddaughter had an incurable disease. So if he was going to help with murder for money, then if anything it would be to fund research.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by yangxu

Anyone thinks that the food these folks ate when they arrived at Rokkenjima actually had something in it that induced moderate to severe degree of hallucinations in a time-dependent manner? Kinzo practices alchemy, and Nanjo is a doctor, Kinzo's servants do what they are told to do. If the servants were the ones preparing the food in the kitchen, there should be plenty of chances for them to add god knows what (products from Kinzo/Nanjo's research) in there as instructed by Kinzo or Nanjo. The drug's effect might grow stronger as time passes by as demonstrated by each character's increasing paranoia near the end of the story.

Yes, that's the poison theory I was pushing a while back. It would also explain Battler's death at the end, if the wine was poisoned.

[Marion]

Also, just a quick idea: What if Asumu isn't actually dead :O?? Like Battler was fooled into believing that or something.

[Rei-Tenshi]

I dunno, but Beatrice's true form being a bottle of poisoned wine makes me a little sad.

[Christen]

Another thought just passed me. I don't know if it has been discussed but remember in Episode 1 where Kanon and Genji reported to Natsuhi that the phones weren't working? However, the phone call from the parlor to the study was made and they were surprised that the phones were working. Then in Episode 4, the inline connection weren't cut at all. No one confirmed the faulty lines in Episode 1 by the way.

This can only mean Kanon and Genji lied about the inline connection not working but in fact, only the outbound calls are cut. It is risky to lie about it, but people in the mansion won't try to use the phones if they know it isn't working unless in an emergency.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

... Now that I think about it, Nanjo is easily the most likely culprit for being the symbol artist. They only appear if he's still alive. Episode 2 seems to counter this, but his death was not confirmed until after George and co died. If the killer had him and Kumasawa go hide somewhere after tossing some fake blood around in the servant's quarters, he could have simply killed him and Kumasawa after having him draw the symbol on Natsuhi's door. If that were the case, the twilights were in the correct order.

My present speculation:

"Beatrice" (that appears on the gameboard) is Shannon.
The staker/symbol artist is Nanjo.
The letter writer is Shannon or Kumasawa.

Shannon is definitely more and more suspect as time goes on. She and Nanjo are also the only reasonable choices for staker.

Nanjo is, by process of elimination, the most probable candidate for the ep3 First Twilight, which used the symbols. This doesn't mean he always murders though, or that he ever murders at all.

Who is the letter writer comes down to who has Kinzo's signet ring.

And I think Kanon is a big red herring. He acts in suspicious ways, but I don't think of him as a suspect.

[paraalso]

Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel

No, it was the other way around, Beato said that I will kill you Battler.

I think she's referring to how Battler's own victory will kill the meta-Battler. So Beatrice will eventually kill Battler by losing. Afterall, even if we get a good end, won't it be the Battler of that world who gets to go home to his family, and Meta-Battler will disappear?

It's a bit similar to Ange's situation. In Ange's Kakera only Eva survived, so Ange doesn't get a happy end no matter what. She was going to disappear if the game ever ended. Isn't meta-Battler's situation similar, as his Kakera is the world of game number 1. In that game Battler didn't survive, so there can be no happy homecoming for meta-Battler.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by paraalso

I think she's referring to how Battler's own victory will kill the meta-Battler. So Beatrice will eventually kill Battler by losing. Afterall, even if we get a good end, won't it be the Battler of that world who gets to go home to his family, and Meta-Battler will disappear?

It's a bit similar to Ange's situation. In Ange's Kakera only Eva survived, so Ange doesn't get a happy end no matter what. She was going to disappear if the game ever ended. Isn't meta-Battler's situation similar, as his Kakera is the world of game number 1. In that game Battler didn't survive, so there can be no happy homecoming for meta-Battler.

I think Meta-Battler might transcend and become his own entity, similar to Bernkastel. But I think Meta-Battler probably has a similar thought process like Ange did - it doesn't matter if *I* don't get my family back, because as long as *Battler* gets his family back, then I'll be happy.

[paraalso]

Originally Posted by Marion

I think Meta-Battler might transcend and become his own entity, similar to Bernkastel. But I think Meta-Battler probably has a similar thought process like Ange did - it doesn't matter if *I* don't get my family back, because as long as *Battler* gets his family back, then I'll be happy.

I agree and hope that meta-Battler will get a resolution of his own. I don't think he's yet realized that he may not be able to go home himself though. That might become a major plotpoint in the future chapters as another arrow in Beatrice's arsenal. After all he does say something like this in the fourth game:
"You know, I don't have anymore time to be playing around in a place like this.
...Even a tie will keep Ange waiting ...So, I'll break through you, ...take my family, ...and go back home!!"

I agree he will eventually accept that he's fighting for other Battlers and other Ushiromiyas, perhaps an infinite amount of Battlers since the game could take an eternity. As far as the meta-world is concerned, it seems like each game is more like an alternate universe of its own, instead of repeating time over and over in the same one.

From how I see it, whatever happens in future games, there are already 4 worlds where the Ushiromiya family met a tragic end. The way Bern and Lambdadelta speak of the Kakeras reminds me of the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics in a way. Afterall, the game that resulted in Ange's future was real enough (as far as the fantasy side is concerned at least) for her to live her life after the incident, and eventually enter the meta-realm to help meta-Battler.