Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by karice67

But I still stand by what I've discussed with a few people now - the role reversals in the films - all the 'what ifs' - CLEARLY show how the triangle ended in the series. So even if you don't subscribe to Kawamori's postmodernist approach to Macross, you can easily say that the resolution is the same across all the 'different continuities'.

You just made Magnus a really happy guy, right there.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

You just made Magnus a really happy guy, right there.

Well, as I said a few days ago, I already was 110% sure about the ending. But, yeah, thanks anyway.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by MichiNekoChan

Off to learn how to properly remux then. I'm still getting funky lettering.

Spoiler for image space:

My thought is that you don't have the right font installed for the subtitles. Usually "--" is a long bar in Microsoft Word, so perhaps that's where it gets messed up.

Originally Posted by karice67

But I still stand by what I've discussed with a few people now - the role reversals in the films - all the 'what ifs' - CLEARLY show how the triangle ended in the series. So even if you don't subscribe to Kawamori's postmodernist approach to Macross, you can easily say that the resolution is the same across all the 'different continuities'.

There's not really a difference in the "role reversal" department. Sheryl is still deathly ill (something us AruRan fans have often discussed the "what if she wasn't" piece) and Ranka is still rising to fame. The only role reversal I see is that Ranka is out to save Sheryl instead of the latter where Sheryl was out to save Ranka.

They still don't put out a "what if" to if Sheryl hadn't been dying. So we're still left to wonder if she wasn't in that situation, would Alto have chosen her still or the latter "would she have left Frontier sooner?"

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, as I said a few days ago, I already was 110% sure about the ending. But, yeah, thanks anyway.

But I meant it in the sense that she actually agreed with you. Don't kill the romance, man...

[karice67]

^

I had been hinting at it for a very long time, you know...it's nice to FINALLY be able to say why, instead of just telling people to 'wait until you can watch the film'. Although I was also right in suspecting that it wouldn't make a difference...

Originally Posted by karice67

I don't know if it's a good idea to post this now without more of an explanation, but...

Spoiler for response:

Er...as far as I could tell, whilst they changed things around in the second movie, AruRan was never a genuine possibility.

=====

@LMK

The scene at the end really isn't that important.

It's the scene where Ranka confesses that's important.

Remembering that Alto and Ranka BOTH thought that Sheryl was dead at that point, what do you think Alto would have said had Ranka not stopped him? Or more pertinently, what did it LOOK like he was going to say, given his expression and the tone of his voice?


And pardon me, but I'll leave the rest of you to deal with any replies to that. *goes off to bed*

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by karice67

And pardon me, but I'll leave the rest of you to deal with any replies to that. *goes off to bed*

You're pretty mean, aren't you?

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

There's not really a difference in the "role reversal" department. Sheryl is still deathly ill (something us AruRan fans have often discussed the "what if she wasn't" piece) and Ranka is still rising to fame. The only role reversal I see is that Ranka is out to save Sheryl instead of the latter where Sheryl was out to save Ranka.

They still don't put out a "what if" to if Sheryl hadn't been dying. So we're still left to wonder if she wasn't in that situation, would Alto have chosen her still or the latter "would she have left Frontier sooner?"

There are infinitely many unexplored "what ifs" out there. What if Sheryl never meets Alto? What if the two meet in a scenario where Sheryl is married to Brera with three children? What if Sheryl becomes one of the villains and has a tendency to be cruel to small animals? What if she is written out of the plot entirely? (These are all excellent fanfic possibilities, by the way, and some of them might not have been done... yet.)

Circumstance may create the opportunity for two people to get to know each other, but it isn't a force of attraction in and of itself. I suppose the point here is not that Sheryl and Alto are necessarily the absolute fated right answer under every possible circumstance, but rather that they just happen to click together when placed in close enough proximity to each other. That's magnetism for you.

[Moosey]

Many thanks for your subs Karice. They work beautifully with the raw for me. Much appreciated.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by karice67

@LMK

The scene at the end really isn't that important.

It's the scene where Ranka confesses that's important.

Remembering that Alto and Ranka BOTH thought that Sheryl was dead at that point, what do you think Alto would have said had Ranka not stopped him? Or more pertinently, what did it LOOK like he was going to say, given his expression and the tone of his voice?

Um, where did I bring up the confession scene in my above remark?

I was talking about the "role reversal" piece you mentioned in regards to where the characters were portrayed, not in the triangle sense but more in the physical sense: Ranka being the one to rescue Sheryl (from prison) instead of Sheryl being the one to rescue Ranka (from Galaxy). Sheryl nearly dying (in the passageway) as apposed to Michael dying in a similar fashion (in Ep.20). Brera taking out Galaxy (in the Vajra Queen) as apposed to Alto taking out Grace (in the Vajra Queen Ep.25).
There were a lot of role reversals that didn't apply to the love triangle there.

And, regardless of what you think, I see the confession scene as a similar one to Ep.21; because Alto is not given a chance to reply. Whether you want to see it as a similar scene to Ep.24, that's up to you. In both universes, Alto is given no chance to reply and in one, he starts to, but his expression is more "why now?" in both universes.

When I refer to Sheryl's deathly illness, I'm talking about the V-type virus in both universes. It seemed like (to me and many others) that Sheryl had to be "deathly ill" in order for her to remain on Frontier (in the later episodes) and get Alto's drastic attention (especially around Ep.15 to 24). Had she been healthy, perhaps I (especially) would've seen the romance as a benefit to them, but the fact that Sheryl is always deathly ill in each scenario (no matter who writes it) makes my theory of Alto chasing his mother a reality.
"My mother had a weak body" <--> "Sheryl is dying from the V-type virus"
I just don't see a good romance blossoming when you're chasing a female who ultimately (from his point of view) has quite a few health problems (and this is before he knows the truth of her V-type virus in both universes). He is actually chasing his mother without knowing it.

Had there been a role reversal for the V-type infection (Ranka), I'm almost sure his attraction to Ranka would've tripled. Like I said, Alto is subconsciously chasing after his mother (whether it be the sky or a dying female) and it cripples him, really.

I feel kinda sorry for him in both universes because he's trying to find his mother in someone else but looks in all the wrong places (no offense to Sheryl, but she is dying, a bad memory of his mother, truly).

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

There are infinitely many unexplored "what ifs" out there. What if Sheryl never meets Alto? What if the two meet in a scenario where Sheryl is married to Brera with three children? What if Sheryl becomes one of the villains and has a tendency to be cruel to small animals? What if she is written out of the plot entirely? (These are all excellent fanfic possibilities, by the way, and some of them might not have been done... yet.)

Circumstance may create the opportunity for two people to get to know each other, but it isn't a force of attraction in and of itself. I suppose the point here is not that Sheryl and Alto are necessarily the absolute fated right answer under every possible circumstance, but rather that they just happen to click together when placed in close enough proximity to each other. That's magnetism for you.

I think you actually missed the basis of my point as the only role reversal that never changed (explained above).

Actually, the last one, "what if she was written out of the plot entirely" has been one of the questions I believe Endo once asked Kawamori, and I don't believe he could respond to that. I think his desire was for Sheryl to be a strong character but not exactly get together with Alto. His intentions seemed to be more on "she is fine as an independent character so why tie her to Alto?" And if you look back, 90% of the scenes they have together (or apart), Sheryl is independent, meaning her attachment to Alto is a failure to her character (or what Kawamori had her out to be). I think that Kawamori would rather Sheryl be herself (alone) and live for her songs rather than be tied to a lover (even if it is Alto); that's another reason why I really see his AruRan ending, since he wants Sheryl to be just herself.

As for your last reply, Alto and Sheryl really had no chemistry when they met, or did you miss the beginning episodes. He had to be forced to become her bodyguard (by her request) for him to get closer to her and know her because he honestly disliked her from day one. That doesn't strike me as clicking together.

[BetoJR]

You forget they don't really mention his mother in the movies, so your theory of the mommy chasing doesn't hold water, there...

[supernaps]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

As for your last reply, Alto and Sheryl really had no chemistry when they met, or did you miss the beginning episodes. He had to be forced to become her bodyguard (by her request) for him to get closer to her and know her because he honestly disliked her from day one. That doesn't strike me as clicking together.

That's because Sheryl was being an annoying pms bitch and nitpicking on everything and Alto ready to jump on her throat every chance given and the circumstances were not exactly chilling around them.
In the Star Date when they got to relax and be comfortable, they both started developing a fancy towards each other.

Also the mama-theory in the movies is nowhere to be valid, simply for the sole reason the above poster mentioned.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

You forget they don't really mention his mother in the movies, so your theory of the mommy chasing doesn't hold water, there...

Originally Posted by supernaps

Also the mama-theory in the movies is nowhere to be valid, simply for the sole reason the above poster mentioned.

In movie 1, it was implied by Alto when he was speaking to Ranka about his acting (for he started to say more when he abruptly stopped). And later, in movie 2, when Sheryl questions his love of the sky, he grows upset and decides to change the topic back to her. So it was implied that the same storyline for his family still existed.

As I understand it, Alto's background with his family did not change, nor did Ranka. It was a slight change for Sheryl, and that was the fact she lived on Galia 4 with Ranka for a while (which was implied by herself when speaking about her grandmother's works).

So basically, his mother still died the same way and it still cripples him.

Originally Posted by supernaps

That's because Sheryl was being an annoying pms bitch and nitpicking on everything and Alto ready to jump on her throat every chance given and the circumstances were not exactly chilling around them.
In the Star Date when they got to relax and be comfortable, they both started developing a fancy towards each other.

Yet, even after said "date," he still treated her like Michael. His actions towards her never truly changed until Ranka left, and they still held in at times. And since those are his actions towards a boy (Michael) and his friends (Luca and Nanase), I don't see where romantic atmosphere falls into that category when that's his normal actions.

The fact I'm driving at is that up until the later episodes (in the early twenties) they were not clicking at all when it came to holding a decent conversation or learning about each other. Alto learned more about Sheryl that she did him. Plus, the fact is, that two people who argue that much would not work. It usually turns to violence if the argument gets deep enough. Alto just doesn't click with Sheryl as much as he did Ranka (which clicked right off the bat). It strikes me that Alto was not interested in Sheryl as he was Ranka at the beginning of the series up until the late twenties (and even then, he showed little interest in dropping his guard around Sheryl even knowing she was dying).

[supernaps]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

So basically, his mother still died the same way and it still cripples him.
Yet, even after said "date," he still treated her like Michael. His actions towards her never truly changed until Ranka left, and they still held in at times. And since those are his actions towards a boy (Michael) and his friends (Luca and Nanase), I don't see where romantic atmosphere falls into that category when that's his normal actions.

Um, he treated Sheryl like Michael? Aha huum, well I don't recall Alto staring at Michael's boobs nor getting flushed red after Michael kissed him.
If one thing, I'd say he treated Ranka like Luca.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

The fact I'm driving at is that up until the later episodes (in the early twenties) they were not clicking at all when it came to holding a decent conversation or learning about each other. Alto learned more about Sheryl that she did him. Plus, the fact is, that two people who argue that much would not work. It usually turns to violence if the argument gets deep enough. Alto just doesn't click with Sheryl as much as he did Ranka (which clicked right off the bat). It strikes me that Alto was not interested in Sheryl as he was Ranka at the beginning of the series up until the late twenties (and even then, he showed little interest in dropping his guard around Sheryl even knowing she was dying).

Or alternatively, sex. Yeah.

I'm not sure how Alto clicks better with Ranka, when he was most worried not hurting her feelings when being around her because she's fragile; while with Sheryl, he was mostly himself arguing and bickering and then being all fluffy-ish, like a late teens-couple.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

In movie 1, it was implied by Alto when he was speaking to Ranka about his acting (for he started to say more when he abruptly stopped). And later, in movie 2, when Sheryl questions his love of the sky, he grows upset and decides to change the topic back to her. So it was implied that the same storyline for his family still existed.

Implication is not fact, but interpretation. You'll forgive us for not coming to the same conclusion as you, right?

And, as a matter of fact, Sheryl was the only one to mention the sky to him and get some sort of response - in their flashback.
So... More interpretation versus actually shown scenes.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

But I meant it in the sense that she actually agreed with you. Don't kill the romance, man...

Oh, karice and I had a long talk a few days ago, everything is well.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Oh, karice and I had a long talk a few days ago, everything is well.

So, are we going to get invited to the wedding or what?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

So, are we going to get invited to the wedding or what?

Go ship Tak and LMK, you.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by supernaps

Um, he treated Sheryl like Michael? Aha huum, well I don't recall Alto staring at Michael's boobs nor getting flushed red after Michael kissed him.
If one thing, I'd say he treated Ranka like Luca.

Attitude.

Michael and Sheryl got the same treatment from Alto when it came to their smart remarks and especially their attitudes towards him.

Plus, Alto never stared at Sheryl's boobs. And he didn't stare at Sheryl's boobs in Ep.11 either. Look at the pan again, he's looking up, not down.

He treated Ranka differently than the others, I noticed. He actually took the time to encourage Ranka separate from them (Ep.3 as an example) and spoke his mind to her often (a good Movie 1 example). I don't think you could truly compare his actions towards Ranka to any of the other characters in the show because there were significant differences.

Or alternatively, sex. Yeah.

Nowadays, that doesn't work anymore...

I'm not sure how Alto clicks better with Ranka, when he was most worried not hurting her feelings when being around her because she's fragile; while with Sheryl, he was mostly himself arguing and bickering and then being all fluffy-ish, like a late teens-couple.

Trust me, Alto and Sheryl never became so-called "fluffy-ish" with one another enough for you to see a growth in romance between them. By the time the fluff came around, it was already in my mind that he was pitying her because that didn't truly show till Ep.22 after he learned of her illness.

Alto relied on Ranka early in the series for purpose (as stated in Ep.23 with the "I met her, joined the S.M.S. to protect her" piece). Then he allowed Ranka to rely on him for courage. They had quite a few moments of this.

Also take into account that the series and movies are different.
Series - Alto and Ranka had just met, know nothing of each other
Movies - Alto and Ranka have been friends for possibly years, know backgrounds
In the series, Ranka knew nothing of his background. And since they were opposites (he was raised in a noble family, she was considered a "nobody"), he could easily connect with her. She had no knowledge of him and therefore they could connect automatically by him just introducing himself and talking about his current status rather than "yeah, I did that movie three years ago, thanks for noticing." But in Ep.1, this didn't show very well because he automatically assumed she was a fan. This was redeemed by later episodes and him showing very good interest in getting to know more about her (like Ep.3 with Ozma and the later discussion). Because he made so many dumb assumptions in the series, of course he was worried about harming her feelings because he doesn't know what they are.
In the movies, Ranka knew of his background. They were still opposites but he still seemed to connect with her on the same level. But he also still decided to push past the barriers, something he failed to ever do with Sheryl and ask Ozma about Ranka's past. But, once again, he kept making dumb assumptions (or jumping to conclusions) about her feelings, and therefore denying Sheryl's "she likes you" was an obvious reply just like Ep.1's "they say airheads stick out" remark. This is later redeemed by him taking Ranka out on a "date."
In both universes, it is not hard to see that Alto goes to great lengths just to learn more about Ranka whilst if Sheryl doesn't feel like sharing her history with him, that's fine. That's not a mutual understanding but rather a "I don't give a crap about it." So his worrying over Ranka's past is actually a plus because he's concerned over a person he possibly wishes to grow closer to (like a girlfriend/lover/wife).

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Implication is not fact, but interpretation. You'll forgive us for not coming to the same conclusion as you, right?

And, as a matter of fact, Sheryl was the only one to mention the sky to him and get some sort of response - in their flashback.
So... More interpretation versus actually shown scenes.

And did Kawamori state that his history was changed like he did with Sheryl's and Ranka's? No. So therefore, Alto's past with his mother is the same, so she lived and died the same.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

And did Kawamori state that his history was changed like he did with Sheryl's and Ranka's? No. So therefore, Alto's past with his mother is the same, so she lived and died the same.

Really? Did you read the series' bible or something, so you can outright state something like that? Would someone who has never seen the series be able to interpret his past like that? No? Then we're through with this argument, right here.

[supernaps]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Attitude.

Michael and Sheryl got the same treatment from Alto when it came to their smart remarks and especially their attitudes towards him.

Plus, Alto never stared at Sheryl's boobs. And he didn't stare at Sheryl's boobs in Ep.11 either. Look at the pan again, he's looking up, not down.

He treated Ranka differently than the others, I noticed. He actually took the time to encourage Ranka separate from them (Ep.3 as an example) and spoke his mind to her often (a good Movie 1 example). I don't think you could truly compare his actions towards Ranka to any of the other characters in the show because there were significant differences.

Sheryl and Michael often teased Alto who responded in a similar way of imma-angry-face, but that does not equal 'treated them the same.'
They are all different people, therefore they get different treatment.

Alto knew that Ranka is a young, innocent and sensitive girl so he was being there for her, encouraging her and all this jazz shit.
With Sheryl, at first she comes across as a strong individual relying on her musical career and stuff, and later when she breaks down he is also there, reaching out on her and helping her.
Point. He was there for both of them, but the difference lies in the fact, that he got intimate with one. That's the difference between friendship and romance.