Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

You remind me so much of all the other fangirls I've seen over the years. Ranka and Alto were never CLOSE. Not in the way that you wish they were.

As for an example of her impossible and fantasy view of him, remember when Ranka was all gushy when he made that heart in the sky during her concert, thinking it was for her from him, without ANY evidence that he truly liked her that way. And forgetting that it was his JOB to make entertainment in the sky for her concert and the fans(you know, like he did with Sheryl in episode One???). They'd never kissed(outside of acting in a movie), or even held hands. There was no talk at all between them about romance or relationships, or much in the way of sexual tension(I believe the only time they had sexual tension was on the one planet for one scene, compared to the dozens the he and Sheryl had throughout the series).

Someday, you will look back at these earlier posts, and wonder WTF were you thinking...

All I can say to you is: do you ever think that Ranka might be cautious of relationships in the romantic sense for a REASON? Alto sure was.

Spoiler for romance:

His relationship with Sheryl was shaky, at best. While they had their moments, he NEVER spoke of his past with Sheryl, she ALWAYS dominated the conversation and ignored if he wanted to TALK about himself. Also, Michael KINDLY pointed out to him since Ep2 that Alto LOVES to jump into things and then RUN away. Sheryl counts. After all, in Ep6, after their so-called date, he DENIES have feelings for Sheryl. Then, later in that episode, he jumps right into a friendship/romantic relationship with her AFTER he learns just a BIT about her past. Let's also take Ep3 into the equation: he jumps RIGHT into being a pilot. Michael had GOOD reason to believe that Alto was merely finding another means of escape, but this time he had reached TOO HIGH. And when he first met Ranka, he jumps RIGHT into finding her in Ep1 DURING Sheryl's concert. He also becomes an acquaintance to her awfully fast. It is not Ranka's fault that she talks about herself a lot, for whenever she's NOT talking, he could speak. Instead, he merely keeps going on about HER. Same with Sheryl. He speaks nothing of his past to Sheryl. But in Ep21 and even before that back in Ep17, Alto speaks about his past demons with RANKA. It was obvious that he also had intimacy issues. Shall we actually bothering returning to the fact that Alto returned NEITHER of Sheryl's kisses in either Ep10 OR Ep24? And also, in Ep22, Alto also JUMPS right into bed with Sheryl after one of his BEST comrades dies and RANKA left abruptly. It is NOT a show of love, honestly. He was hurt by both stings to the heart and all Sheryl became was a comfort zone. To be honest with you, if you actually thought to see that Alto DOES have issues with romance, you'd see he's NOT the man you're looking at. Whilst their MIGHT be love between Sheryl and Alto, it is proven in Ep13 that Alto is fine with the common ground that he shares with Ranka in the intimacy way. Actually, I think he also preferred her in that way, as she's too shy to do like Sheryl does, which is why he feels more comfortable stating his feelings to her like in that same episode.

Now, with Ranka: she easily builds friendships but romantic ones are difficult. Why? Well, for starters, what DOES she have to tell Alto about herself in Ep3? "I have no memories, just that song." So, for a moment here, let's actually think about what she'd say to her DATE at dinner when he asks about herself: "um, I don't have any childhood memories. I was adopted. So let's talk about you?" And I could easily tell you the boy would leave. Whether the interest was futuristic (leading towards a serious relationship and possible marriage) or a fling (would leave right after sex), a boy ALWAYS wants to know SOMETHING about the girl. For one thing: diseases. In Ranka's case, she has the V-type virus in her system that might be contagious and even just kissing might give it to him. But Ranka doesn't know she has it until Ep23-25. For another thing: behavior. Now, a LOT of people inherit their parents good looks but they also inherit their BEHAVIOR. And in Ranka's case, we can tell from one flashback in Ep23 that Ranka inherited her mother's stubbornness. However, what of her father? Most likely he's the one with the Zentradi blood, so she inherited anger from him. But what else? She's got NOTHING.
THIS is another reason Alto loves to share HIS past with her, for she has no inner demons to plague him with like others and can easily turn his frown upside down just with her smile.
However, she also has lack of self-worth, as Ep4 nicely pointed out when she compared her boobs to other girls' and admitted she couldn't do the competition on account that she wasn't like the other girls. She doesn't think she has a sex appeal. And she's right to THINK so too. She looks WAY younger than she actually is, which is WHY she can play Mao so easily. But this is also why she's more upset than normal when she sees Sheryl on the roof with Alto, HUGGING. For one thing: Sheryl is sexier than her and more important and she also HAS a past she can share with Alto so they can connect, unlike her. But the biggest burn is that Sheryl is her mentor and idol, someone she looks up to and trusts, that's why it's a DOUBLE burn to her. And let's not forget the REASON why Ranka was running up to the roof: Alto's performance in the sky gave her courage to ADMIT her feelings. When she runs up and sees him with Sheryl, how do YOU think you'd feel in HER situation?
Sheryl was someone she aspired to be. It was NOT because she wanted to sing, as she showed in Ep19 early on, but because she wanted to find self-worth in herself to approach someone romantically and she wanted to be someone who mattered to others, and someone whom could love. But when she met Alto, she should've let go of that desire, as he showed interest in her when she WASN'T a somebody (a good part for Alto , the famous Kabuki actor). However, he only inspired her TO sing. And a part of me believes it was BECAUSE he wanted her to sing that she actually went out and did so, because she believed he desired that of her. Regardless, if she had known about his past then, she would've realized that he was just pushing his own lack of the stage onto her, but if you look at it from a double-sided mirror: Alto becomes a man to protect her, Ranka becomes a woman to inspire him. In Ep3, this was shown real well as Ranka had inspired him to join the S.M.S. as a means of protecting HER, not anyone else AT THAT TIME. Her reason for going to the Miss Macross competition was inspired by HIM telling her to fly. Another good reason I believe they each took their own steps away from each other and truly parted IN Ep3. So there was no true love triangle except between the girls figuring out if he loved one of them. And honestly, despite his relationship with Sheryl, Ranka still gives a try to see if he loves her. It was not SHERYL who pushed her to admit her feelings OR feel that way, but it was because she desired to be with him.
And one thing I laugh about is that people say she doesn't see Alto romantically, that all she sees IS an image of what she WANTS him to be. In truth, what is she seeing: a handsome man, a knight in shining armor. Does she have good reason to? Yes. After Ep1, he saves her from the Vajra, he's handsome and kind, even strong; and she views him as her savior AND a love interest. It's not an image where she goes: "oh my, a pretty boy..." for like 25 episodes. It's an image where she understands WHEN they met. After all, the only other memory she might have is when he yelled at her in that episode. That wouldn't be a very good memory, now would it? And him looking dumbfounded later didn't work either nor when he was firing at the Vajra angrily. She wanted a GOOD memory and THAT was it.
Don't blame HER for being flawed so much that it makes your dear Sheryl look like a GOD but she has her REASONS. And if you stepped off your high-horse, you'd see that she can NEVER measure up to a character like Sheryl, and so, she feels inferior.
And if you actually looked back, you'd remember that Sheryl had NO dreams of being a singer for a significant reason. She just desired it. Sheryl had no reason that was worth continuing once she was ill (which Alto didn't understand because she never TOLD him why she sang). Sheryl wanted to get off the street, Grace took her. She wanted to be a singer since before her parents died, Grace helped her. Now ask yourself, AND the show, did RANKA want to sing since she was Sheryl's age (11-12)? No. At the time, she only sang the lullaby her MOTHER taught her.
That being said, it's another reason why Alto might like Ranka more, as she starts to sing because she aspires to BE someone better than who she is. She wasn't FORCED to sing, she didn't have the blood of one, and she didn't just choose it, but she wanted to be someone who held self-worth, whom he could love, and that's an endearing thing when you look at how shy and soft-spoken she is. Meanwhile, Sheryl only sang in the beginning so she could express herself AND be famous. She didn't have lack of self-worth nor did she feel inferior to Grace or others around her, she just wanted to leave the hellhole of Galaxy. But Ranka didn't want to leave Frontier. Both Alto and Ranka chose careers that involved their homeworld whilst Sheryl merely wanted to abandon hers, and in the end, she DID. Once again, another plus for Alto and Ranka.
Now, in the future, Ranka might actually GET Alto. It's not because he'd fall out of love with Sheryl, divorce her, etc. but the simple fact that Michael is absolutely correct. He jumps into things. Ranka takes her relationship with Alto slow and desires him to make moves when he deems it fine, unlike with Sheryl. And also, he shared his past with her much like a boyfriend to a girlfriend on their second date. Their relationship was bumpy, but after Ep25 when he broke her out of the hold, she became brave, even challenged Sheryl to a duel. It was obvious that Alto realized her pains and wanted to help. He never jumped into a relationship with Ranka that was more intimate BECAUSE he understood she was shy. Hell, if Ep13's "huh?" moment between them didn't show that, I don't know WHAT would except Ep15's hospital moment. He understands her emotions to a certain point. Now, he might not want to recognize she's in pain (or Sheryl for that matter) because it pulls him down. He's very highly inspired by emotions. And to fight for the WRONG reason (ex: "you tried to hurt Ranka, you make her cry" "you nearly killed Sheryl, now she doesn't want to sing") might be more harmful than good. So he becomes oblivious to that and fights with his own feelings (ex: "the blood of an actor?"). It is simply not Sheryl's fault that Alto fails to convey his past to her, to even share a stem of it, but it's because he doesn't want to put his burden on to some STRANGER in Ep6. Honestly, the fact that he shared his past with Ranka in Ep10, telling her about the old phrase his father had shared with him, showed she was QUITE important to him. The fact they led different lives did NOT mean he wasn't trying to be closer to her. After all, Sheryl WAS a singer longer and she had promotional videos and also she had to travel. She picked ALTO because she felt comfortable with him: she was someone she could trust. Now also keep in mind that she didn't want to also sign Michael to go with her to Galia 4 because the rebels there might think it was TOO WEIRD that TWO people from Frontier's army came with her. After all, if she could take care of herself, why need a military backup except from request via the government. But when it comes to Alto and Ranka, he even STATES that he understands Ranka is too busy for him - after all, he's BEEN down that road before. He says he DOESN'T MIND.
Quite honestly, you forget to view the facts that Alto obviously doesn't want her to think he's "with" Sheryl as a date or a boyfriend on ANY occasion. He even denies that he went on a date with Sheryl in Ep6, Ep15, and gee, even up to Ep20 when she CATCHES them together. He views her the same way as she views him: a possible future, a marriage. Because, quite honestly, the small builds in their relationship are not towards a fling or a marriage that was too quick and might fall apart (on either Sheryl or Alto's part) but towards a marriage that has a future, a solid one. They build towards THAT with the way they decide not to just jump into intimacy. After all, the #1 reason people get divorced is not only money but sex. And for that honest reason, a LOT of people who jump into relationships find out that person wasn't who he/she thought she/he was. And in Alto's case, he learns about Sheryl's past, her reasons, but views her in his own "famous" image. In Sheryl's case, she learns NOTHING about his past, but understands his CURRENT desire to protect Frontier, but she views him as her romantic interest. In Ranka's case, she views him as her knight in shining armor, though flawed, and learns about his past by either him telling her or her asking him, and she understands his demons, his reasons, his desire to protect Frontier (even if that seems hard to believe with Ep20), and she views him as a future boyfriend. Now, in Alto's case, he has GOOD reason to take things slow with Ranka. After all, he desires to protect her with all his might in Ep4 when he sees the Vajra. He also has lack of self-worth. And when he finds himself worthy to protect her (Ep25), he might approach her with that confidence behind his back. It didn't ALL start with Sheryl, as they all had their dreams to begin with, but it was RANKA who inspired him to do the corkscrew, because she brought his spirits up and made him happy. And if she hadn't inspired him, he never would have MET Sheryl off-stage for losing her earring, after all, it's BECAUSE he attempted his corkscrew that he knocked her off-stage and had to rescue her. The both of them each obtained their dreams through the others' strength.
And in the end, to be honest with you, Sheryl didn't inspire Ranka to do anything in the later episodes. Actually, Sheryl became the one person she didn't want to turn out like. It wasn't the illness but rather the fact that Sheryl had desired to help RANKA but ended up with the BOY Ranka loved, the reason she was singing. And quite honestly, that could easily be seen as a deception in Ranka's eyes. "You only helped me so you could have Alto-kun." Sheryl became less of an inspiration to Alto in the later episodes because FRONTIER moved him to end the war, not Sheryl. Rather, he didn't WANT Sheryl to sing, to motivate him. It wasn't JUST because she was dying but rather he didn't want to have that emotion on his already heavily burdened shoulders. His heart had already grown heavy since Ranka had abandoned them to fend for themselves. But he didn't think: at that point, what WAS her singing doing but harming Frontier more? After all, he doesn't realize she assumed more than she was supposed to in Ep20, even when her singing DRAWS them to her, he doesn't realize it. Not until Ep21 when she LEAVES. Now honestly, in both contexts, they lost their inspiration: Ranka felt deceived and abandoned by her idol, whom had stolen her love; Sheryl stopped singing and Alto didn't WANT her to sing after her learned of her illness. They BOTH lost that so-called "inspiration". So what drove them forward? Themselves. They each chose a path. What drove Sheryl forward? Alto. Once again, another reason their relationship was too rushed from beginning to end.

I'm not gonna compress this message... don't feel like it.

[MichiNekoChan]

Uh, where do I even start with that?

- Oh! well that was a pain to read, please add more spaces in between paragraphs to save our eyes please.

- Second, I'm not sure why you keep fighting so diligently here in the forums...

- Third, I'm pretty sure Sheryl never let Alto talk about his past because of the circumstances and pain behind it. Really, not everyone wants to throw a pity party like Ranka does.

- Boys ALWAYS lie about their feelings to friends when they first like a girl. (least the boys around me do XD)

- Who says he never returned the last kiss? All we see is his first stunned expression. Honestly if he never even liked her that way, I'm pretty sure he would have pulled her off, shoved her aside... something.~

- If I was ranka at the rooftop scene? Honestly, its a goddamn hug, until I hear official statements from them, I would still try. Again, Ranka goes to depression mode and throws another pity party.

- Do you honestly think Ranka would have had the courage alone to sign up for Miss Macross, even if Alto pushed her? Did you miss the scene where she was in a stair well and SHERYL was liked "get your ass moving if you want to beat me" AND SHE DID. God forbid you acknowledge that Sheryl did ANYTHING tot help Ranka out in the series at all.

- Why does there need to be a super significant reason for Sheryl to become a singer? If shes good at it, that could be her dream. Does one really need a reason more then that? To become a singing star to better yourself and get yourself out of the slums?

- From there it descends into a mass of unintelligibly statements and assumption, so unless I want m brain to melt in my skull, I think I'll stop there.

...

[ShinyBunny]

Ranka lost the triangle. Move on with your life.


Though this

And in the end, to be honest with you, Sheryl didn't inspire Ranka to do anything in the later episodes. Actually, Sheryl became the one person she didn't want to turn out like. It wasn't the illness but rather the fact that Sheryl had desired to help RANKA but ended up with the BOY Ranka loved, the reason she was singing. And quite honestly, that could easily be seen as a deception in Ranka's eyes. "You only helped me so you could have Alto-kun.".

So wrong. Sheryl inspired and was a better friend to Ranka than Alto ever was. What you say about Ranka makes me think you think little of her. If she would throw away a great friend and inspiration because of a boy what kind of person doe that make her? Her last line in the series was about not losing to Sheryl. That to me shows she still wanted to catch up to her because she knew she was neither the woman Sheryl was, the singer or had the affections of Alto that Sheryl had.

And if you go to movie verse, Ranka supported Sheryl and Alto. I can't stand Ranka, but you are making her out to be a worse person than she actually was shown.

[magnuskn]

Paragraphs are your friend, LMK. ^^

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

All I can say to you is: do you ever think that Ranka might be cautious of relationships in the romantic sense for a REASON? Alto sure was.

His relationship with Sheryl was shaky, at best. While they had their moments, he NEVER spoke of his past with Sheryl, she ALWAYS dominated the conversation and ignored if he wanted to TALK about himself.

Alto and Sheryl both spoke of their pasts to each other in episode 7, that's how Sheryl knew that Alto wanted to fly in a real sky, and the reason why she gave him the gift she did

Also, Michael KINDLY pointed out to him since Ep2 that Alto LOVES to jump into things and then RUN away. Sheryl counts. After all, in Ep6, after their so-called date, he DENIES have feelings for Sheryl. Then, later in that episode, he jumps right into a friendship/romantic relationship with her AFTER he learns just a BIT about her past.

Problem is, I don't think Sheryl was interested in Alto romantically at that point in the series, besides boys tend to lie about their feelings a lot, and what you say applies to Ranka as well, so you try to stay clear of this argument.

Let's also take Ep3 into the equation: he jumps RIGHT into being a pilot. Michael had GOOD reason to believe that Alto was merely finding another means of escape, but this time he had reached TOO HIGH. And when he first met Ranka, he jumps RIGHT into finding her in Ep1 DURING Sheryl's concert.

Actually Alto jumps right into the cockpit in episode 1, and he wasn't searching for Ranka then either he immediately went after Sheryl, and then happened to see Ranka. It was entirely by chance.

He also becomes an acquaintance to her awfully fast. It is not Ranka's fault that she talks about herself a lot, for whenever she's NOT talking, he could speak. Instead, he merely keeps going on about HER. Same with Sheryl. He speaks nothing of his past to Sheryl.

Again episode 7 says hi! And he met Ranka again (along with Sheryl) in episode 2, when they both got locked into the shelter. That is when Sheryl inspires both Ranka and Alto to chase after their dreams.

But in Ep21 and even before that back in Ep17, Alto speaks about his past demons with RANKA. It was obvious that he also had intimacy issues. Shall we actually bothering returning to the fact that Alto returned NEITHER of Sheryl's kisses in either Ep10 OR Ep24?

First of all it took Ranka 21 episodes what took Sheryl 7, that's hardly comparable. And if Alto had intimacy issues then episodes 20-23 don't display that very well, and for the record the first time Alto and Sheryl kissed Alto was surprised, the second time they may have kissed was initiated by Alto, and the third time Sheryl just did it to get him to shut up. As for Ranka the only time she kissed Alto was during a scripted movie, which only she took seriously.

And also, in Ep22, Alto also JUMPS right into bed with Sheryl after one of his BEST comrades dies and RANKA left abruptly. It is NOT a show of love, honestly. He was hurt by both stings to the heart and all Sheryl became was a comfort zone. To be honest with you, if you actually thought to see that Alto DOES have issues with romance, you'd see he's NOT the man you're looking at.

I think he was more worried about Sheryl dying at that moment, and again you shouldn't try to push this idea as you're basically making Alto out to be a jerk, and therefore making a blessing that he didn't choose either girls in episode 25.

Whilst their MIGHT be love between Sheryl and Alto, it is proven in Ep13 that Alto is fine with the common ground that he shares with Ranka in the intimacy way. Actually, I think he also preferred her in that way, as she's too shy to do like Sheryl does, which is why he feels more comfortable stating his feelings to her like in that same episode.

Considering the common ground he shares with Ranka is again nothing but friendship on his side, where he keeps her at a distance, never talking about himself, only letting her do all the talking.

Now, with Ranka: she easily builds friendships but romantic ones are difficult. Why? Well, for starters, what DOES she have to tell Alto about herself in Ep3? "I have no memories, just that song." So, for a moment here, let's actually think about what she'd say to her DATE at dinner when he asks about herself: "um, I don't have any childhood memories. I was adopted. So let's talk about you?" And I could easily tell you the boy would leave. Whether the interest was futuristic (leading towards a serious relationship and possible marriage) or a fling (would leave right after sex), a boy ALWAYS wants to know SOMETHING about the girl. For one thing: diseases.

Problem is Ranka has many friends over the course of the series. Let's count them shall we? Sheryl, Alto, Nanase, Luca, and Mikhail. Ranka only doesn't have memories of causing the accident that killed her family, she also doesn't doesn't have the v-type virus, only her mother and Sheryl did in this series.

Ranka also never asks Alto anything really personal about himself until episode 21, and Alto was told Ranka's past by Ozma, when he asked why she broke down.

In Ranka's case, she has the V-type virus in her system that might be contagious and even just kissing might give it to him. But Ranka doesn't know she has it until Ep23-25. For another thing: behavior. Now, a LOT of people inherit their parents good looks but they also inherit their BEHAVIOR. And in Ranka's case, we can tell from one flashback in Ep23 that Ranka inherited her mother's stubbornness. However, what of her father? Most likely he's the one with the Zentradi blood, so she inherited anger from him. But what else? She's got NOTHING.

Ranka's didn't have the v-type virus her mother and Sheryl did. Also Ranka has her friends and family. Compared to Sheryl who was made an orphan to live on the streets by the very same woman who later on adopted her and took her in only to infect her with the v-type virus, for her own experiments, and then dropped her after finding someone she considered superior. If that wasn't enough she's also dying at the young age of 17, and because of her hectic life she doesn't have very many friends. Yeah, compared to Sheryl, Ranka has it easy.

THIS is another reason Alto loves to share HIS past with her, for she has no inner demons to plague him with like others and can easily turn his frown upside down just with her smile.

He shared because she asked, he already told Sheryl the same thing in episode 7.

However, she also has lack of self-worth, as Ep4 nicely pointed out when she compared her boobs to other girls' and admitted she couldn't do the competition on account that she wasn't like the other girls. She doesn't think she has a sex appeal. And she's right to THINK so too. She looks WAY younger than she actually is, which is WHY she can play Mao so easily. But this is also why she's more upset than normal when she sees Sheryl on the roof with Alto, HUGGING.

first of all it was Sheryl that encouraged Ranka to go through with the Miss Macross contest after she thought of dropping out, though knowing you you'd never admit that. Also two people hugging is nothing, and Ranka was never shown to be sensitive about the way she looks so you're making up there.

For one thing: Sheryl is sexier than her and more important and she also HAS a past she can share with Alto so they can connect, unlike her. But the biggest burn is that Sheryl is her mentor and idol, someone she looks up to and trusts, that's why it's a DOUBLE burn to her. And let's not forget the REASON why Ranka was running up to the roof: Alto's performance in the sky gave her courage to ADMIT her feelings. When she runs up and sees him with Sheryl, how do YOU think you'd feel in HER situation?

Alto's perfomance in the sky was like the scene he acted for the movie scripted. It was never something that should has been taken on a personal level, as it was a part of Alto's job. Also again Ranka has never shown that she is seriously insecure about the way she looks, so you're just making things up. Also I can't say that I would feel for Ranka's situation because I think that I'd realize that it was a scripted performance first.

Sheryl was someone she aspired to be. It was NOT because she wanted to sing, as she showed in Ep19 early on, but because she wanted to find self-worth in herself to approach someone romantically and she wanted to be someone who mattered to others, and someone whom could love. But when she met Alto, she should've let go of that desire, as he showed interest in her when she WASN'T a somebody (a good part for Alto , the famous Kabuki actor).

Ranka initially said it was because she wanted people to hear her sing, she didn't decide to only sing for Alto until much later on. She never said that she never wanted to sing, in fact just the opposite. Also Alto didn't care about anyone being famous because he was already used to it, though Alto being a famous Kabuki player means that Ranka was the one who was constantly star struck.

However, he only inspired her TO sing. And a part of me believes it was BECAUSE he wanted her to sing that she actually went out and did so, because she believed he desired that of her. Regardless, if she had known about his past then, she would've realized that he was just pushing his own lack of the stage onto her, but if you look at it from a double-sided mirror: Alto becomes a man to protect her, Ranka becomes a woman to inspire him. In Ep3, this was shown real well as Ranka had inspired him to join the S.M.S. as a means of protecting HER, not anyone else AT THAT TIME. Her reason for going to the Miss Macross competition was inspired by HIM telling her to fly.

Actually the person who initially inspired them BOTH Ranka and Alto to start chasing after their dreams was Sheryl in episode 2, but considering your habit of blocking out anything containing her I doubt you remember. It was also Sheryl who stopped Ranka from giving up during the Miss Macross contest even with Alto supporting supporting her. So your skewed views are once again negated by canon.

Alto also wanted to join SMS in episode 2 because of Gilliam, but Ozma didn't let him, it was only after Ozma let Alto hear about Ranka's past that he allowed Alto to join, but Alto already asked in episode 2, which you are once again ignoring because of the lack of Ranka. It was more along the lines of Ozma would only let Alto join because of Ranka, rather than Alto actually actually joining because of Ranka.

Another good reason I believe they each took their own steps away from each other and truly parted IN Ep3. So there was no true love triangle except between the girls figuring out if he loved one of them. And honestly, despite his relationship with Sheryl, Ranka still gives a try to see if he loves her. It was not SHERYL who pushed her to admit her feelings OR feel that way, but it was because she desired to be with him.

Considering that they're not even in a relationship and are barely even friends taking steps away from each other is a bad sign.

And one thing I laugh about is that people say she doesn't see Alto romantically, that all she sees IS an image of what she WANTS him to be. In truth, what is she seeing: a handsome man, a knight in shining armor. Does she have good reason to? Yes. After Ep1, he saves her from the Vajra, he's handsome and kind, even strong; and she views him as her savior AND a love interest. It's not an image where she goes: "oh my, a pretty boy..." for like 25 episodes. It's an image where she understands WHEN they met. After all, the only other memory she might have is when he yelled at her in that episode. That wouldn't be a very good memory, now would it? And him looking dumbfounded later didn't work either nor when he was firing at the Vajra angrily. She wanted a GOOD memory and THAT was it.

No one ever said that Ranka never saw Alto romantically only that she never saw Alto for who he was, which is supported by canon. Though Ranka thinks of Alto as her protector in truth he never protects her, its always someone else protecting her and her attributing it to Alto, that much was apparent in episode 2.

Don't blame HER for being flawed so much that it makes your dear Sheryl look like a GOD but she has her REASONS. And if you stepped off your high-horse, you'd see that she can NEVER measure up to a character like Sheryl, and so, she feels inferior.

Considering that you ignore all her flaws, and try to make up your own which was never at all stated in series, I got to wonder whether or not you realize that you are really insulting yourself. After all who was the person who insisted on only them having knowledge of facts, which they gained from a public online encyclopedia, in a community filled with people who has only have been talking about this for over 3 years, but also has a few member who regularly correct and not only own most of the official material but are also most likely the ones responsible for both the fansubs, and the information you quote from wikipedia.

And if you actually looked back, you'd remember that Sheryl had NO dreams of being a singer for a significant reason. She just desired it. Sheryl had no reason that was worth continuing once she was ill (which Alto didn't understand because she never TOLD him why she sang). Sheryl wanted to get off the street, Grace took her. She wanted to be a singer since before her parents died, Grace helped her. Now ask yourself, AND the show, did RANKA want to sing since she was Sheryl's age (11-12)? No. At the time, she only sang the lullaby her MOTHER taught her.

Sheryl wanted to be a singer because she liked to sing, that's a significant enough reason to want to sing, in fact most singers day and age become singers because they like to sing. Sheryl outright said that she wanted to continue to sing because she felt that it was the only thing she had left, which was why she continued to sing even when her sickness started to weaken her. Also from your post you show that you don't know anything about Sheryl's character (in addition to Ranka's character either mind you). Grace sought out Sheryl, because she knew of her relation to Mao Nome and wanted to experiment on her, Sheryl is also the ninth girl that Grace did this to. It was never stated that Sheryl wanted to be a singer before her parents died (though Grace was most likely the one responsible for that one). Also now Sheryl is an evil girl for liking to sing, and wanting to get off the streets? There is such a thing as child starts you actually dreamed of wanting to sing. Not but you consider also Ranka a pure angel girl who got adopted just after her parents died, and deciding that she seriously wanted to become a singer when she was 16? Your views on life are skewed girl. Also no one knows whether or not Ranka actually wanted to sing any earlier than that.

That being said, it's another reason why Alto might like Ranka more, as she starts to sing because she aspires to BE someone better than who she is. She wasn't FORCED to sing, she didn't have the blood of one, and she didn't just choose it, but she wanted to be someone who held self-worth, whom he could love, and that's an endearing thing when you look at how shy and soft-spoken she is. Meanwhile, Sheryl only sang in the beginning so she could express herself AND be famous. She didn't have lack of self-worth nor did she feel inferior to Grace or others around her, she just wanted to leave the hellhole of Galaxy. But Ranka didn't want to leave Frontier. Both Alto and Ranka chose careers that involved their homeworld whilst Sheryl merely wanted to abandon hers, and in the end, she DID. Once again, another plus for Alto and Ranka.

If Alto liked Ranka more then he would have chosen her over Sheryl, but he didn't in either the tv series, the manga, the novels, or the movies get over it. Also Sheryl never says anything about singing to be famous, way to demonize a character. Also little tidbit of fact, Grace was the one who raised Sheryl which was why Sheryl was so surprised that Grace betrayed her the way she did. Also there you go again demonizing Sheryl for wanted to have a roof over her head instead of just living alone on the streets, eating food out of a trash can, compared to the little girl who has all of her needs met and taken care of. Your views of life are skewed.

I'm ignoring the rest.

Alto chose Sheryl not Ranka, get over it.

[Thess]

I don't want to join to a flame-war fest here. Please guys keep it civil. Ranka does have a lot of trauma too and I don't think she has "pity parties" (this is ONE of the communication problems between Alto and Ranka: she never really voiced her pain and connection to the Vajra clearly and he didn't even notice the clues).

From Ranka's mouth in episode 25, she admits that it was because of SHERYL she and Alto had strength to follow their dreams. She was slow in the uptake to realize it wasn't just Alto. She gives credit when is due.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Alto chose Sheryl not Ranka, get over it.

Quoting this. It's kind of over officially right...?

[karice67]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

And the funny part is that Alto gives credits to BOTH girls, and not just the one who inspired him the most. He didn't choose one wing over the other or give a specific movement there, and that is why they say undecisive. After all, he raises both hands and says "you are both my wings!" without any physical movement towards either girl. Although, before that, he moves towards Ranka, "you, both of you," right then and doesn't approach Sheryl, also, they hold THEIR hands out to her, right next to each other, but then again, people want to delete that from their minds because they think Ranka is inferior to Sheryl, that's obvious from all the posts I read here.

No we don't - at least, I certainly don't - but this is a very different matter from the issue of who Alto loves romantically. (see this or this)

[Thess]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Except, you forget that Ranka has SEEN what Alto will do to the Vajra. Don't you happen to think she'd be afraid of what he would do if she stated her feelings about the Vajra?

I don't think is Ranka's FAULT alone. They both share the blame, IMO. That's why they don't work (for me) as a healthy, romantic couple. I think I said a number of times before, if they hooked up, it would be a crash and burn relationship since both parties don't really seem to be able to understand each others. Although I think there were no such issues in the first movie, that was mainly lack of Alto's attraction to Ranka (aka he friendzoned her).

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

And yes, thank you, Ranka DOES have a lot of trauma. After all, she saw her family die before her very eyes when she'd been sheltered her whole life by her parents so she wouldn't BECOME like Sheryl (closed off from others - this warms up later, but at the beginning of the series, I mean).

I know. That's why was important for Sheryl to share the burden with someone and for Ranka to try to face things on her own (Brera doesn't count >.>; as he is part of that past) on purely character growth perspective (even if Ranka's actions were ill-timed in terms of the plot and I think have a lousy execution). In terms of character growth, Alto/Sheryl seemed the logical progression for that very reason: with her sharing her secret wish. Same reason why Ranka rediscovered her past without Alto. If she was later captured/rescued, it was due to plot arc rather than a character arc.

Originally Posted by karice67

No we don't - at least, I certainly don't - but this is a very different matter from the issue of who Alto loves romantically. (see this or this)

Exactly. There's absolutely no contest both girls are dear for him and were necessary in his development, growth, etc (wasn't that the meaning behind both are my wings: of his total equal trust -not romantic love-?). But he only loves one of this girls romantically. Platonic love is in no way inferior to romantic love, by the way.

Likewise, Alto and Ranka are important to Sheryl. Their relationship is triangular, but only one of the sides have mutual romantic bond.

[Darthtabby]

I have to say I'm not really seeing much to dissuade me from the general opinions I've held on this issue for quite some time now.

As I see it Ranka basically has a puppy dog crush on Alto because she sees him as Prince Charming and the Knight in Shining Armour all rolled into one. Meanwhile he mostly seems to view her the way one might view a younger sibling that one was particularly fond of. If there was any sort of romantic feelings that he held for her, they were towards the midpoint of the series and weren't capitalized on.

Meanwhile Alto and Sheryl seem to have a much deeper connection. They seem to be able to talk to communicate decently well (in fact I think Alto communicates better with Sheryl than with many of his friends) and seem to enjoy the things they do together (especially notable in Alto's case as he ends up enjoying things he was essentially dragged into doing). Sheryl understands Alto's motivation better than Ranka and she seems willing to join in his dream of flying (though she continues to chase her own dream as well). Meanwhile Alto takes a number of actions that prove that he cares about Sheryl. He's willing to break a vow he made to himself just to see that she's all right and he committed himself to stay with her to the end when she was sick. I don't think he'd do that for someone he didn't deeply care about.

On a related note, I'd gotten the impression that Sheryl's love of singing only came to light after Grace picked her up. Sheryl's singing wasn't originally part of Grace's plan, it was something Grace discovered along the way that she found a way to work into what she was doing. That being said a lot of my info for Sheryl and Grace's background is second hand, I don't know Japanese and I don't have access to the drama CDs (well, aside from the incredibly cute clip of young Sheryl singing Totsugeki Love Heart that's posted on youtube).

[Thess]

...Well, obviously Kawamori doesn't share your mother's opinion, LoveMeMegs.

Of course, if it would have gone my way. This would have been the ending:

Spoiler for image:

But I'm not the one who calls the shots, so I deal with it. Welcome to fanon!

[wisteria233]

Spoiler for too long:

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

And that's much? She didn't know the full length of his past until Yasaburou told her. In both universes, Alto shares with RANKA about his acting and his mother's death, even his feelings for his mother and father, and the sky. Once again, you want to forget those things ever occur.

he didn't Ranka about Yasaburo either, or about his father. He basically told her in episode 21 the same thing he told Sheryl in episode 7, so the point still stands it took Ranka 21 episodes what took Sheryl 7. Also considering that Sheryl ends up in the Saotome household and her chat with Yasaburo in episode 18, she becomes very aware of Alto's past with Yasaburo which is more than we can say for Ranka.

The difference is, regardless whether Sheryl was interested in him, to lie to Ranka when NOTHING was going on was stupid. If he didn't see her romantically, why lie at that time to his other possible love interest when she caught him RED HANDED? Plus, as I recall, Ranka states outright to Alto that Brera is just a friend, so she never lied to him about that. She stated her interest clearly by just saying Brera was a friend, that he wasn't a love interest. Your argument dies right there. Alto lied in Ep6 and even in Ep10 that to spare Ranka's feelings there.

Sheryl didn't become interested in Alto romantically until episode 11. Before that time she treated him like a friend, so neither or them were lying then. Also what difference would it make whether or not they lie to Ranka about this subject? I know in your skewed mind you think this but Alto and Ranka were never in a relationship, heck they're barely friends at that point, so there Alto has no obligation to answer her question at all whether truthfully or not. Especially if the question is personal. So once again your point is moot.

He jumped into the cockpit, yes, but for who's sake, AGAIN? Ranka. But in Ep2, he is shown arguing, wanting to take a Valkyrie out and battle right when Ozma deploys. He jumps RIGHT INTO wanting to be a pilot RIGHT THERE, even BEFORE Sheryl got close to him in Ep3, but sure; you'll forget THAT scene because it was at the end whilst Ranka was talking up a storm with Sheryl. And of course, you miss the fact that Alto WAS NOT searching DURING her concert for her, but RANKA. Who did his camera land on? Ranka. Who was he smiling at? Ranka. Don't believe me, go back and watch Ozma again spitting out his coffee with Giliam behind him (the only time you see him in the whole series).

Again not really, he just saw that someone was in trouble and previously he was put down again for being unprofessional. In episode 1 Alto had barely known Ranka for all of what 5-10 minutes, to say that he did jumped in for Ranka specifically goes against canon, as Alto is known to jump head first into situations without thinking. Your also remembering wrong Alto isn't questioned until after he took over the valkryie, before then Ozma didn't even know who was in Gilliam's valkyrie. Then afterwards when they are under attack again Alto thinks about Gilliam and asks to join SMS, to which Ozma responds by punching him, Ranka had nothing to do with that. Both Ranka and Alto were talking to Sheryl, with Ranka not saying as much as Alto, but seeing as you have selective memory, it isn't surprising that you also remember that wrong.

Alto also jumped into the cockpit because it was his dream to fly. Also both Alto and Ranka say that it was Sheryl who inspired them to chase after their dreams, so you're once again wrong.

It was also by chance that Alto's camera landed on Ranka, he wasn't looking for all, so once again moot point.


Again, you miss Ep2 before they all met together. Alto had already moved forward to pilot a Valkyrie and got his ass kicked by Ozma. He was already motivated by Ranka alone. Sheryl just pushed him a BIT more.

Sheryl didn't show interest in Alto romantically till Ep10. Ranka showed interest in him romantically from Ep3 and onward. It took Sheryl twice as long to warm up to him. But once again, you miss the fact that NEITHER girl had Alto's full attention up until Ep11. Whilst Alto was spending time with Sheryl, he would call Ranka (it wasn't SHE who called him if you listen to the conversation in Ep10) and whilst he was with Ranka, he spent time talking to Sheryl over the phone. Neither girl had the upper hand until Ep11 when he took off with Sheryl, then the challenge began if you look at the animation and emotional level of all three, this was obvious as the halfway point of a story is always the turn.

Sheryl not showing an romantic interest in him until much later on just means that isn't the type to falls hopelessly in love without at least getting to know the person first. Actually I think that it took Alto longer than that to start thinking of either of them as females with Sheryl being in episode 3 and Ranka in episode 13 ( I wouldn't say that he was ever interested in Ranka romantically, despite what you think), which essentially means that he's similar to Sheryl he doesn't fall in love easily, and he wont give his heart to someone who he doesn't know anything about (by the way I find it funny that you essentially admitted that Alto wasn't in fact interested in Ranka romantically in the first episodes despite your claims that he did). Sheryl was already in the lead by that point and she wasn't even attracted to Alto then, which says a lot about their relationship. It was to the point that Nanase had to outright tell Ranka that Sheryl and Alto were noticeably spending a lot of time together.

Actually, Alto DOES have intimacy issues. After all, if he liked Sheryl a lot, why not kiss her other than Ep22? BEFORE then, even? Alto has intimacy issues and it shows very well. Another thing, if he was so surprised, why not respond? He didn't. The second time may have been by him but by that point, he had lost everything precious to him: Michael, Ranka, and even Nanase was ill, and now Sheryl. He was upset. He once again, jumped into something.

Maybe Alto didn't kiss Sheryl back because he didn't have any time to? Sheryl basically just did it get him to shut up, and once again episodes 22-23 disagree with your view. It was also kinda obvious that she wanted to continue the conversation afterwards. Also you completely missed the point about being surprised. The point of being surprised is that you are unable to react.

Also all things considered, Alto was in his right mind when he did have that intimate moment with her in episode 22. By episode 22 Alto is resolute and isn't doubting himself, the only person who has his doubts right know is Ranka, and even then he isn't shown to be thinking of her at all. So your opinion just isn't true to canon. Considering that there is a time skip in between Ranka leaving and episode 22, I'd say that Alto had time to get over it. At that point in time Alto was thinking of Sheryl, it was never implied that he was thinking of anything else at that moment, at all.

I think Alto quotes me: "it's just a kiss. But to her, it's more." It's her FIRST kiss. Of course she takes it seriously. She's one of those old-fashion type girls who takes those things seriously. If you've watched enough anime, you know that the girl is shown staring in the mirror thinking about the kiss. It doesn't mean she thought it meant something to him but rather she is either shocked, confused, or upset. And in most cases, she realizes that she likes him and wants to deny it. One prime example of this ALSO had a love triangle: Blue Seed. If you ever saw that one, Momiji is shown looking in the mirror after her crush, Kusanagi kissed her, but it was actually to perform CPR. Same situation, different anime, both didn't mean the kiss and it was planned out as the only way to help both girls (only one saved the other).

Alto is a professional actor, so he's feeling bad for her, for having her first kiss being apart of a scripted performance. I think that most people rationalize the fact that they are in fact acting, and following a script and therefore realize that there is no intimacy and the kisses like that don't doesn't mean anything. Case in point how many child actors kiss in a movie and never end up in a relationship? Here's a hint too many to count. Also episode 11 says that Ranka did in fact think that the kiss meant something. Also cultural differences in Japan having your first kiss is a big deal, its just that in this case it was very unprofessional of Ranka to take things like that seriously, if it was just one time okay, but she did it again episode 19, this means that Ranka does have a problem separating her professional life with her personal life.

I've been watching anime since 1990, don't assume what you don't know.

Once again, he DID jump into that. After all, you had 21 episodes before that to show your deep interest, Alto. The fact that it takes 21 episodes where it took every other Macross character or character alone just 12-15 episodes to state their feelings or go for sex just proves that he's jumping into things too fast and can't catch up. By the time he has sex with Sheryl, everything has gone to hell, which you - AruSherri fans - tend to miss and say us AruRan fans are crazy. But look to Ep23 and how pitiful the town looks and TELL me it's just about his desire to show her how much he loves her. He's upset about the WHOLE mess: Frontier, Sheryl, Ranka, Michael, Nanase, Luca, his mother, his father, ALL of it. It's just a release of emotion. Trust me, you need to understand that men do that ALL the time. I could count the number of times I've heard the "I was stressed" from a guy after sex. Don't trust it.

Alto never jumped into having a relationship with Ranka, also episode 21 wasn't about Alto gaining an interest in her like that (I'd even say that he never gained an interest in her like that). If Alto was truly interested in Ranka then he would have gone after her. How can we miss what simply isn't there? Also you're the ONLY AruRan I've come across who argues in this manner (as in even the craziest of AruRan fans admitted the fact that episodes 21-24 didn't bode well for their ship) which just means that your the craziest shipper of them all. I mean seriously its said in canon several times that Sheryl and Alto spend more time together than Alto does with Ranka. I've got to wonder whether or not YOU understand men being a female yourself, and being corrected SEVERAL TIMES by the male members of this forum on how the male mind works, and their opinions of females. And if a guy only has sex with you only because he's stressed then, he's a dick (pun intended) plain an simple. A dick who finds excuses to not keep it in his pants, because even if he is stressed if he is in love with someone else then chances are he won't have sex with you, or is having sex with you because he doesn't have anyone else. But that is commonly known as cheating.

Hah, common ground? They shared a common ground unlike his relationship with Sheryl. Whilst he kept her at a distance, do you ever happen to think that he thought it was for her own good? After all, he tells her in Ep6 that he doesn't find her a bother, but after that, he takes the ACTING job in Ep10 to help further HER career. To be honest, he's more interested in helping her further her career rather than try to tie her down via romantic desires. And that's caring of him. She is shown trying to do the same thing in the later episodes, trying to make him choose others over her. She CAN'T help it that the Vajra are after HER and that makes HER the damsel in distress, but after all, she IS the key to the plot.

Sheryl told Alto about her past in episode 7 and Alto told her his, Alto also spends more time with Sheryl in the tv series than he does with Ranka (you yourself admitted this several times) if they weren't close then then Alto wouldn't have called her to complain about Mikhail, if they weren't close then Alto wouldn't have accepted her gift in episode 11, if they weren't close then Alto wouldn't have cooked for her in episode 23, if they weren't close, then Sheryl wouldn't have gained a romantic interest in him. Yasaburo also outright compares Alto and Sheryl to one another. So canon disagrees with your statement.

Also what common ground did Alto share with Ranka? Alto outright refused to take the job at fist because they wanted him to act as a female character, but his kept hounding him all through the shoot, and he never volunteered to take part in the scene until they needed a stunt double. Also Ranka is Alto's friend, unless he's a dick of course he'd want to help her succeed, but understandably not if he has to give up his dignity. Ranka isn't a bother because she's his friend. Also when has Ranka shown that she wanted Alto to choose others over her, that was Sheryl. Ranka also doesn't realize that the Vajra were after her until episode 21, so your point, or whatever point your trying to make is moot.

Yes, lots of friends. And we could count Brera in there too.

and family too therefore Ranka is not Alone.

Actually, Ranka doesn't remember ANYTHING about her childhood. No, up until Ep23's flashback, she is shocked to know that Brera is her brother. Now don't you think she'd remember that if it was ONLY memories of the accident? Yes.

Ranka was six when it happened, so guess what she still had a childhood after the event in question. Also it was shown that Ranka remembered before the accident as well, her memory came back gradually.

Actually, she DOES have the V-type virus. She was BORN with it via her mother. How do you think she's able to communicate with the Vajra? In both universes, she has a stable infection of the V-type virus. Because she was born with it, it was able to live in her body without causing her internal pain and possible death.

No, no she doesn't, and they never say that she does either. Her ability to communicate with the vajra was because her RANSHE NOT RANKA had the v-type virus. Ranka was perfectly healthy through out the series. It was also never stated that Ranka was dying at all that was SHERYL (whose past is more horrific than Ranka's could ever hope to be) AND RANSHE, NOT RANKA. Is this going to become another made up fact like your "Frontier launched at 2011".

Again, Ranka was given Alto's phrase from his father. She didn't ask for that, just advice. She didn't know he was actor. Again, a plus for Ranka, who liked him for HIM, not his past as an actor. Well, Ozma is the only one who would truly know, ne? I mean, Ranka has no memory. In the movie, it works out the same way, even though they've befriended each other then. So your argument fails there.

Actually Ranka did ask Alto for advice, and Alto gave that his answer. By episode 11 Ranka knows that Alto was an actor, she found this out earlier in the episode. Also it was stated in canon that tv series Ranka didn't like Alto for who he was, she liked him for the image she had of him.

Actually Ozma wouldn't know that because she basically described Alto to him as a guy who looks like a princess that she was interested in, and that's the last we ever see of her talking about Alto to Ozma. So for all intents and purposes even HE would probably think that her attraction to him was entirely superficial, because there was nothing to say otherwise. Also movie Ranka was friends with Alto for a period of time before hand, and her personality is different from tv series Ranka, as she's more mature, and more outgoing, and she STILL lost the love triangle so your entire argument still fails based on the information alone.

When she aspired to be a singer, no one was helping her originally. Ozma, in Ep5, is shown yelling at her, saying she can't do it. Michael has doubts in her. Alto gives her encouragement. Sheryl and Nanase the ONLY ones who believe she CAN. And up until Ep4, Ranka had never met Klan. Luca also met her in that episode, as I recall. Those two were new to her. But no, her friends didn't fully support her until she BECAME said idol.

Wow, you really forget characters don't you? Nanase helped Ranka and so did poor Elmo (who you always forget), while Alto, SHERYL, Mikhail, AND Luca provided her with moral support, so no Ranka was never really an underdog and she was never alone. Also the reason why Ozma was pissed at Ranka was because she got suspended from prestigous private school, which he worked tooth and nail to get her admitted into, by joinging a beauty contest without his consent. For all intents and purposes Ozma has every right to be pissed. Mikhail meanwhile knew the story behind why Ozma was pissed, and yes, he was right to say what he did to her. Also Mikhail was correct, in saying that she was too shy to sing on her own, remember: what ultimately gave Ranka the courage to sing? The knowledge that someone was listening to her. Ranka doesn't become an idol until episode 11, so your point is rendered moot by that fact. Before then

And again, Grace took Sheryl in. When Sheryl wanted to sing, she helped her. Regardless if Grace WAS the cause of her agony, Sheryl was helped by someone from start to finish to reach her dream. And regardless of her death, she had already felt before she KNEW about her illness that she had completed her dream. She no longer wanted to sing after Ep16. Not to mention that EVERYONE took Sheryl's side, even Michael, whom was on Ranka's side in the beginning. Let's not forget that everyone turns to Sheryl, as if forgetting Ranka even exists. So don't say she didn't have friends.

Grace took in Sheryl not from the goodness of her own heart, she did it with a motive in mind (this is supported canonically). Before Sheryl wanted to become a singer Grace infected her with the v-type infection (again supported canonically) to get revenge on the Mei and Nome families (supported surprise surprise canonically). Some time later Sheryl expressed an interest in singing and Grace and Pals used that as a platform to perform more experiments (information supported canonically again). Grace raised Sheryl with an agenda in mind (I'd say what the full story was but you'd just ignore it anyway). You've also got it wrong Sheryl was outright lying when she said that did want to sing in episode 18, which is a fact supported by the later half of the episode in her chat with Yasaburo's statement and her own in episodes 21 and 22. Sheryl never once says that she has completed her dream, considering that her dream was to sing, its more accurate to say that she was still in the midst of living out her dream. Besides that Sheryl's dream wasn't something that singing could bring her (a fact that Grace points out in the drama cds).

FYI Grace n' Pals are also most likely the ones responsible for the death of Sheryl's parents, so Sheryl has no one left in terms of immediate family.

Ranka was also helped by people from the very start, dare I say she had more moral support than Sheryl ever did, as the people who supported Ranka actually cared about her. And considering that Ranka doesn't make it big until after episode 11, I'd say that none of them were star struck by her (remember she never won that Miss Macross contest, she was still very much a nobody), and Sheryl's support (read: Grace n' Pals) abandoned her for someone else without much thought and no regrets, I'd say that Ranka's support team was more dedicated, and loyal, and that Ranka was still much better off. Also not one of Ranka's friends ever forgets of her existence, despite your claims.

I'm talking about her desire to sing when I speak of Ranka. Grace had connections, meanwhile, no one in Ranka's family did.

Yes, and Grace's connections sure helped out Sheryl didn't they? I mean she was very well taken care of in episode 16 oohh...wait... That's right Grace's connections didn't give two craps about Sheryl once her usefulness ran out, so they abandoned Sheryl like they did the other eight girls before her.

She did not encourage her to show up in Ep3 for the questioning. Or did you miss Alto throwing his plane into the sky and her feel enlightened by his words of encouragement? And honestly, Ranka wasn't thinking about dropping out, just that she wasn't good enough for the competition. Sheryl's timing was bad too, for you miss the fact that her encouragement had already come back with Alto's message "I'm here. Win this thing."

Actually Sheryl did convince Ranka AND Alto to start thinking about following their dreams, earlier in episode 3, the characters admitted as much (though again you have selective memory). Except Ranka was sitting alone on the staircase wondering whether or not she just give up, when Sheryl came in and convinced her to once again chase after her dreams, so you're remembering wrong (big surprise there), also Alto never once said "I'm here. Win this thing". She merely showed up, so the timing isn't off, he's just telling her that she can do it, so you can't say that it was Alto alone who made her go through with the Miss Macross competition, as Nanase helped out as well, as did Sheryl. To say that only Alto supported Ranka is to outright ignore the events of 95% of the series.

Uh, yes she was shown to be sensitive. Go back to Ep4 again and rewatch the dressing room sequence. Oh my, if you actually miss where she's shown blushing at Nanase's breasts and paling, realizing she's out of her league, then just go ahead and watch her react to the OTHER girls. Then, if that's not enough, when she's prepared to go out, she sighs and pulls at her bra, attempting to make her breasts bigger, then she sucks up that lack of self-worth and walks out, because ALTO is there. If that's not enough, she also says, same episode, at the end, to ALTO: "someone like me could never do that." Now why do you think she's always repeating that phrase? No one was shown to have taught her it, so of COURSE she lacks self-worth.

That was played for laughs, when was Ranka ever shown to be seriously sensitive about her body? Ever? Also Ranka was talking about the swim suit competition as she knew for a fact that they were going to judge her on her body, acknowledging the fact that your boobs are small doesn't mean that your sensitive about your body. Her pulling her bra was the equivalent of a buy pulling up their pants and going "Let's do this", she was in a beauty competition and they were grading her on how her body looked in a bikini, if she doesn't look sexy enough she won't get high scores, and she knew that. Also you said it yourself didn't you Ranka is shy, and parading around in a bikini on national television while being judged by a panel of mostly strangers, is a lot to take in at once. Like I said before Miss Macross is a beauty competition, its as superficial as superficial can get, Ranka acknowledging the fact that the competition is superficial doesn't mean anything.

Also if Ranka was truly upset about the way she looked then she would have been against playing a ten year old in a movie (but then again its normal for an older actor to play a younger character in movies and tv series).

To Ranka, Alto and Sheryl hugging on the roof when she'd finally built up the courage to state her feelings in WORDS was a blow. It is not about saying "it is nothing" but having the wind knocked out of you surely makes it hard to breath, right? Same for Ranka. "Alto-kun, I--" /sees Alto and Sheryl pull away/ "No way." It is the simple fact they are TOGETHER that blew her away.

The reason why I'm don't feel sorry for Ranka, is because it was highly far fetched that anyone could take a scripted flight show as a love confession from one of the stunt pilots, also Ranka set herself up for her own heartbreak, of which her reaction was quite frankly overblown.

AGAIN, when she's running up the steps, what is she saying? "At last, I can tell him how I feel!" It wasn't that she thought the stunt was real but rather he had encouraged her to state her feelings outright. And again, Brera DID ask her WHY she sang. She wanted to make it clear, to state her feelings. But bursting onto the roof and seeing him with Sheryl blew that courage right away. So, knowing that, what would YOU do in her situation?

Considering how she blushed at the arrow being put through the heart and thought that the pilot who did that was Alto, suggests that Ranka did in fact think that it was a love confession. Otherwise, which was the reason for her overblown reaction. Also Ranka changed her reasons for singing in that episode previously she said she sang because she wanted to liked to do it, and she wanted to convey her message to the world. This was before Ranka decided that she was in love with Alto. But keeping what you said in mind if I was in Ranka's position of wanting to express myself to my crush only to find him with another girl (this happened to me once) I'd pretty much just suck it up and walk away, while feeling embarrassed (which is what I did), I wouldn't collapse and wish myself dead (which I didn't), and try to tell him another time (never got the courage to do again but life goes on, there are other fish in the sea).

Actually, in the beginning, she said that because she THOUGHT it was that way. But it was shown in her LYRICS when she first sang her debut song or even Seikan Hikou that she had already chosen to sing for Alto. Meanwhile, Sheryl was singing for HERSELF up until she fell for Alto.

Actually, in Ep20, she made it perfectly clear that she only wanted to sing for Alto throughout the WHOLE series, refusing to sing when he demanded she use her gift for something horrid like killing the Vajra. After all, the Vajra are living things, even if bio-weapons, and two wrongs don't make a right.

episode 20 is after the fact, it doesn't change the fact that she changed her reasons for singing. It was also implied that Ranka liked to sing before meeting Alto so your point is rendered invalid by that. Though to say that she sang for Alto's love before doesn't help your case in Ranka being serious about Alto, and seeing him for the real him. In fact saying what you just did implies that Ranka became overly reliant on a guy that barely met a few days ago, and knows virtually nothing about. Also the Vajra were killing the citizens of Frontier, and it was the Vajra that started the conflict, so Vajra are and have never been innocent. Or are you forgetting the way the Vajra squeezed Gilliam to death in episode 1, after picking him up out of his cockpit? Two wrongs may not make a right, but the Vajra are killing people unprovoked what should the denizens of Frontier just sit back and let the Vajra do it,because Ranka wants them to get along? Keep in mind she's the reason for they're attacking.

In that case the best choice of action would be to prevent Ranka from ever being able to sing again, or just let the Vajra take Ranka away, that would have solved all of their problems.

Ranka was not star-struck. After all, she didn't KNOW he was a famous actor until Ep10. So you fail there.

Wasn't it Ranka who goes "He's so pretty like a princess?" that's the same as being starstruck, and its an impression that she keeps along with her ideal of Alto being her ultimate protector.

Nope, you got the EPISODES mixed up. It was Ep3 that she spoke to them like that. In Ep2, Alto had already moved forward and stated he wanted to pilot a Valkyrie, to fight, and Ozma had knocked him out. Ranka, at that time, was talking to Sheryl without knowing it was her. And again, at Miss Macross, Alto's message had already worked it's magic. She was inspired because HE wanted to see her. Sheryl was merely the icing on the cake.

Episode 2 is the precursor to episode 3, I just referring to the two of them together because its late and I'm lazy.

It was necessarily because of Gilliam but he felt like he had let the man down. After all, what did he do when Gilliam told him to take Ranka and leave? Stand there and watch. And it wasn't because of Ranka that Ozma let Alto join but his desire to protect her. If you look back at Ep2 and even Ep3, Alto showed a very deep interest in knowing more about Ranka and even learning how to protect her. He grew fond of her very quickly for a person you say is not interested. Instead of her being an innocent bystander that he could just release when the fight was over, he chose to get attached to her. And with that being said, he wanted to pilot a Valkyrie to avenge Gilliam, not just because of him. He wanted to finish the mission Gilliam had failed, to protect Frontier, and THEM (both him and Ranka) from the Vajra.

Which pretty much goes against what you said above, way to destroy your own argument. And yes it was because of Ranka that Ozma let Alto join SMS, he asks to join in episode 2 as well, but Ozma refuses his request, until episode 3, which Mikhail pointed out the disparity of after their chat with Ozma. Also Alto outright says that Ranka was his excuse, so yeah, canon disagrees with you.

You know, you act as though people should be twins attached to each other for them to be in a relationship. You know how many people keep long-distant relationships JUST so they can keep their career and love life going? Millions. And Alto and Ranka fit into this BECAUSE she is so busy. Alto gets busy once his missions start and then he's assigned (not of his own volition, I tell you) to guard Sheryl, as shown in the beginning of Ep10, and he's not happy about it either.

No twins are twins they are related by blood, that provides their attachment. But people who are unrelated need to be attached to one another emotionally, if they are unattached to each other in this regard then they are not in a relationship. Even with long distance relationships tend to fail, why because the two people lose their affection for each other in the absence of their significant other. Also people in long distance relationships STILL see their significant other, they have to otherwise the relationship won't last. Also long distance relationships are much harder to keep up than the way you talk. That is the reason why people prefer not to have long distance relationships.

Again, it is BECAUSE of what Alto does that she is saved, and that means he protected her. Just because he doesn't come back with her and say "yes, I finally did it, I got you out safely!" doesn't mean he didn't protect her. And also, Ranka DID see him for whom he was. She stated it nicely in Ep21 when she complimented his mother's story. "That's beautiful." It wasn't HIM she was referring to, but the memory he shared with her. She could picture the sky his mother dreamed of just like he could. They shared a common smile and a deep moment together where Ranka allowed Alto to fix her plane. In a sense, the plane was a symbol throughout the WHOLE series. If the plane didn't fly, it meant the heart was wavering, and with Sheryl, this proved true, even with Alto. And when Ranka's plane flew, it meant her heart was fine - which meant she saw his affection, his love for Frontier, and understood his means. The fact that Ai-kun took the plane only meant he had grown impatient with waiting. And if you realize, Ai-kun had taken the planes since Ep17. Her questioning him to come with her here is not hope but an actual request. In truth, she doesn't want to leave with Brera either if you look at her face when she's on the hand (love the CGI there) before he gets up to demand she stay. And if that doesn't help you enough, she says "I wanted us to be together always." It's not that she has hope or that her heart was rejected, she understands just as Sheryl did that Frontier is more important, after all, he had just yelled at her saying they had to kill the Vajra to survive.

Delusion much, Alto never saves Ranka on his own.

Episode 1 - Gilliam intercepts the Vajra and stops said Vajra from taking Ranka away, he is then killed, and Alto takes over killing the Vajra. Ranka thinks only Alto saved her, Alto corrects her.

Episode 11- Brera kills the creature going out of control Ranka wakes up and thinks Alto saved her, Alto tries to correct her again

Episode 14-15 Brera once again saves Ranka.

Episode 24-25 Sheryl convinces Alto to not kill Ranka, and gives Alto the earring which allows him to hear Ranka's voice, but it is ultimately Sheryl's song that wakes Ranka up.

So yeah Alto never once saved Ranka on his own.

Also if Ranka didn't want to go with Brera, then why did she ask him to go with her? there is a logic bomb in your argument. Also if Ranka understood Alto's heart then she would have never asked him to go with her, the day after Mikhail's death, with Ai-kun, whose evolved and looks just like the bug that killed Mikhail.

Also considering Alto's reaction to what Ranka did in episode 21, I'd say that he didn't appreciate it much.

Also Ao no ether and the subsequent message of episode 21 is about how Ranka didn't understand Alto, and is now just realizing it, which is again supported by official material. Meanwhile Sheryl does understand Alto, but believes that she doesn't.

Also according to Yoshino (series script writer) Alto's affection for both girls was never equal.

The mere fact that you say she doesn't see him for who he is... it makes me puke. Maybe you should look through Ranka's eyes. You'd surely see her feelings then.

You can't argue with canon, its outright stated that Ranka doesn't see Alto for Alto so puke away. You should stop looking through Ranka's eyes, so scratch that because you aren't even doing that you should get off your high horse and not tell other people what to do, when you refuse to do it yourself.

Yes, yes; but Ranka was not the same. She didn't choose to sing because she liked to. That was the difference in Ranka that drew about her desire to end it in Ep20. She realized it wasn't her dream at all, that all she wanted was to sing for Alto to hear her from Ep3 onward.

Which again goes against what you said above do you read your own arguments? You just basically admitted that Ranka sings because she likes to. Also when was it ever stated that Sheryl didn't like to sing?

Naw, I love Ranka's character. I see her flaws as things she can fix.

Correction you don't see any of her flaws, and try to create your own to make her into a Mary Sue.

I thought I told you all in the beginning that I disliked Sheryl from the start. If it were up to me, she'd be a more friendly and likeable person from Ep1, THEN I might warm up, but it took me 19 episodes to warm up to her, then she just got on my bad side when I saw her with Alto in Ep20 and how my OTC (one true character) in MF was upset. I wanted to hit her too in Ep25. But that's just a fan speaking about a character they dislike.

And now you finally admit it. Though you were a lost cause from the start if you watched Macross purely because you thought that Ranka was going to win the love triangle.

Actually, by the flashbacks, she picked Sheryl up off the street when she was Ranka's age, 11.

When did I ever say she wasn't 11-12 years old is still childhood. Childhood doesn't end until you become an adult. Sheryl was the ninth girl that Grace picked up and experimented on.

Hm, she never DID remember how her parents died. But it was obvious in Ep7 when she spoke to Alto that she had desired to sing from the start of her life. After all, when Grace picked her up, she said in Ep18 that Sheryl had a strong voice. That was a REASON she wanted to find her. Now where would she know THAT if Sheryl didn't sing BEFORE her parents' death?

That information came from supplemental material. The reason why Grace wanted to find Sheryl was because of her relation to Mao, she didn't find out about Sheryl's voice until after she took Sheryl in and infected her. So your making things up.

I didn't say she was evil. I said her reasons were different.

You pretty much demonized her.

Again, their reasons were different. Ranka DECIDED to sing after she met ALTO. If you remember what she says in Ep3: "I come here a lot to sing. No one can hear me." Remember that he says "is that alright?" Ranka, up until then, never wanted to sing out. Up until Alto saved her, up until she realized she wanted MORE out of life, and that she wanted to be closer to HIM. So, yes, she decided at 16 to start singing.

Actually Ranka decides to sing after she meets Alto AND SHERYL she admits as much in episode 25, and its stated several times in canon.

Oh, Ozma knew. In Ep5, he is shown throwing a tantrum and saying "I told you that you can't do it!" Ozma knew. Nanase knew. The others, not so much.

Which goes against your previous statement that Ranka wanted to sing because of Alto. By the way we catch Ozma and Ranka in the midst of their arguments so its unknown whether or not he meant that he said it before the beginning of the series, or just then.

Once again, it is Kawamori who decided upon the pairing, doesn't mean he liked it. After all, he did like ALL of his characters and was really upset to kill Michael. He'd prefer them all happy and the regular pairings to end the series WOULD be Alto/Ranka and Brera/Sheryl, to rid the incest and make everyone happy. So quite honestly, I don't care what you say, the obvious NORMAL happy ending is there.

Umm...If Kawamori didn't like the idea of Sheryl ending up with Alto then why endorse it? Remember Alto was originally going to choose in episode 25 before Yoshino convinced Kawamori to change the ending. Also Kawamori wrote the script to the movie, if he didn't want Sheryl and Alto to end up together then they wouldn't end up together you're conspiracy theories are hilarious and delusional as ever

She sure acts the part, though.

Actually she doesn't, she never once says she sings for the money. Way to demonize the character.

I know that. You once again just state things I already know without thinking which episodes my words or talking about or reading the full sentence/paragraph. And trust me, I dislike Grace... have from Ep13.

I guess then its just because its related to Sheryl, that you completely ignore facts.

Oh yes, poor Sheryl. Like there haven't been multiple other people who have been on the streets. And Sheryl says it herself: she's never been lucky. So she had to CREATE her own luck. Ranka is the lucky one. And, to be honest, both Ranka and Sheryl are bound to have met, as Mao Nome was the research director for 117. It just shows that Ranka got the long stick and Sheryl got the short. It doesn't mean that I demonized her, it just means that she had her fights, but when you look at it through both characters: they both lost their parents at age 11, both were picked up by people who took them in, both sang for different reasons, both met through Alto. Again, they both started out on Galia 4 and then ended up meeting again through Alto. He was the cement. And to be honest with you, Sheryl got her luck by reuniting with Ranka. After all, if she hadn't found Ranka, she would have suffered when she returned to Galaxy. It was due to Ranka that Alto accidentally got her earring and they formed a bond together. So it starts with Ranka and ends with Ranka. Shocking how people miss that.

I think Sheryl admitting the fact that she was lucky proves that she knows where she came from and was prepared to work hard to make sure that never goes back there. And yes, you have been demonizing Sheryl throughout all of your posts, while subsequently ignoring her involvement in both Ranka's AND Alto's lives as the catalyst to them seriously pursuing their dreams, though canon mentions it at every opportunity. Ranka was about 4-6 when she lost her parents. By the time Ranka was 11 Ozma had already adopted her. And now you ignore Alto.

Funny you just summarized your Ranka centered views. No it doesn't begin and end with Ranka, it had never began or ended with her. What happened in the series was a joint effect of the three of them meeting. Alto would have never met Ranka if not for Sheryl, and ditto for Ranka and Alto. But at the same time Alto would have never realized his dream if not for the Sheryl AND Ranka, and Sheryl would have never met people who actually cared for her if not for Alto and Ranka. That is the meaning of the triangular.

Ah, is never gonna change: no. Because I see the true pairings of Macross F: Alto/Ranka and Brera/Sheryl

.
Enjoy your delusion, then.

[teelatsuki]

I'm too tired to quote but from earlier posts...

WHAT THE HELL?!!!!

BreraxSheryl as a true couple I really hope you only refer to the movie verse when it has a (REALLY SLIM actually nill) chance of happening because in the series they didn't even met let alone talk to each other.

And also now canon does not mean anyting beacause you see the real pairings? what's the whole point of creating an history and tell it if at the end people will ignore it and change it so it adjusts their views, what's the point of creating a pairing that you don't like and then make it canon in every single continuity? please understand that you should respect canon at the very least and accept that your views are purely fanon

Other points

Sheryl saw alto as a romantic interest very early in the series she even asked him if he had a girlfriend (a consideration that Ranka didn't have mind you) in episode 5 wich means earlyer than that she was interested perhaps be the end of chapter 3.
Stop jumping between Alto being a real saviour to Ranka and him not, make up your mind or else it's confusing.
Sheryl didn't actually desired for being a singer she just happened to be good at it and needed it to make a living eventually that was the only thing that validated her an she says so herself "I singed to live but now I live to sing" she didn't do it for the glamour or anything she needed it.

I will make my point again the whole deal with chapter 21 was that Alto never really conected with ranka so stop pretending they had a strong bond or high understanding of each other.

Also don't pass Alto's denials as him wanting to marry ranka that's just creepy since they almost just had meet, him being intersted ok, but anything more is just too much.

As for the V-type Ranka didn't have it she had the cure to it wich turned out to be also a communication device.

Also sheryl knowing about Alto she did, Yasabouro just helped her understand his reasons for a little better nothing else.
Alto didn't choose to fight for ranka until episode 3, in episode 2 he just wanted to use a Valkyrie again and fight.

I remember some members saying this but i will repeat it

If Alto is enought of a jerk to have sex with a (terminally sick) woman (that if we go be the novels was a virgin) that he didn't love just to throw her away for another person, WHY would you want to pair your favorite character with him?

In chapter 10 Alto took the paper because the director was bothering him about it and wasn't about to stop.
About the roof scene could have played in a lot of ways if Ranka hadn't overeacted why would she overeact about something she has seen several times, BECAUSE SHE MISUNDERSTOOD ALTO'S PERFOMANCE AS A LOVE CONFESSION (I just realised that Alto was doing that performance for Sheryl to encourage her to sing again) and was sure that he loved her back wich is why she was ready to confess because she was sure she was going to succeed.(as for your question I would have made sure I knew what was going on instead of jumping to conclusions)

Also Ranka eventually was able to see the real Alto but that only was portrayed until episode 21 that's goddamn long time it took to break her bubble.

Don't go putting ages in the mix because it will just be wild guessing and that turns out ugly when the actual facts are revealed.

about the "you, you are both my wings" the first you was for sheryl since she was the one he was talking to at the moment.

also: how selfish sheryl is, not wanting to burden further an already burdened Alto with her problems not sharing her load unlike a certain greenhead that did just that trough the series, yes Sheryl is pure evil (hope you undertand this is sarcasm)

Finally: you just tried to remove the one trait that I liked of Ranka at first for your shipping tendencies, that trait being that she wanted to sing for everyone, that she changed her mind and choosed to sing for Alto only, rest of humanity be dammed was the biggest dissapointment I had with her character.

If you know ranka's character so well then you should know that wanting to sing only for alto was supossed to be one of her flaws right?

well that was longer that intended for the points that you made that bothered me... I hope i didn't went overboard at anytime but once again i'm tired so i don't know anymore.

[raile]

Wow. Just when I thought she could not outdo herself...

Well no matter how long and "thought-out" her posts are. It's always fun and effective to say one thing:

Alto/Sheryl is canon. Deal with it.

In hindsight, fanon isn't so bad, just as long as you don't try to force it down others' throat like it's the truth. Quoting Natsu, that's like a raft (fanon) against Noah's ark (canon)....which she is doing basically.

P.S. The fact that she's bringing in her personal life into the discussion means she's getting desperate and grasping at straws (also she has a pretty warped sense of love if what she's saying about her parents is true). That alone makes me bang my head against a wall. I hope I don't get selective amnesia out of it. *whistles*

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Ah, is never gonna change: no. Because I see the true pairings of Macross F: Alto/Ranka and Brera/Sheryl

Okay, even I have to call you out on this. Where in the anime OR the movies do you even see this happening??

When you answer, I would like the episode number and the time in the episode where it happens so I can go look it up myself.

[BetoJR]

Good grief, sometimes my eyes hurt, while reading (or trying to read) some posts, here. And then, I laugh. Out loud. And I forget about it. Maybe some of you guys should do the same?

Let's talk about the original triangle, people. There's a rewatch going on, you know?

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

Okay, even I have to call you out on this. Where in the anime OR the movies do you even see this happening??

When you answer, I would like the episode number and the time in the episode where it happens so I can go look it up myself.

Dude, don't you know she has a life outside of anime? She doesn't have the time to do those nerdy things, like actually backing up her claims with actual facts! Leave the girl alone, you bully!

Seriously, don't.

[solothurn]

*points at ignore list*

[cheesie]

Well, Westlo's calling it as a failed trollolol. Which is somewhat true - you know you suck as a troll if you're too dull to be funny. Unsure of why people nevertheless respond to it anyway.

I'm more entertained by the notion of a lost, wandering soul hung up on the remnants of a shipping war long ended and only needs to be gently spirited away to the world of Fanon, where its welcoming doors await.

Leaving that alone and moving on, let me point to what has greatly interested me the past few weeks:

Hnnnnngh, that delicious stubble. (Yeah, I'm obviously up to date.)

[playmaker2k]

um...what?

[MichiNekoChan]

Ah, is never gonna change: no. Because I see the true pairings of Macross F: Alto/Ranka and Brera/Sheryl

As my boyfriend put it quite nicely:

"Its like ketchup and peanut butter, while they go well with other things, both of them together....eghhh"

You see I'm more of a fan of Alto/Sheryl and Brera/Grace and Ranka/Nanase.

You know cuz at least I put 2 people together that met in the series at least.

or OH!

How about Grace/Nanase!? I think thats officially cannon for you, yes? Oh! or Gilliam/Ranka if you prefer?

[raile]

Originally Posted by MichiNekoChan

... or Gilliam/Ranka if you prefer?

My OTP!
Canon, I say! CANON!
Same with Bilrer/Ozma! Because I see the real pairings!