2010-03-24, 20:50 | Link #6981 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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2010-03-24, 20:52 | Link #6983 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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- Shannon becomes more assertive in her love for George - Kanon overcomes his negativity and becomes human - Maria lost Sakutaro but regained him If each world was like kakera in Higurashi, this kind of character development (especially Shannon's) would be hard to justify. But from the authorial system in Umineko, it's merely the authors developing the characters, especially as they got to know more about them (through research, etc.) Since you didn't read EP6 yet, this bit of spoiler should shed light on why we're talking about the authorial system ... Spoiler for EP6:
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2010-03-24, 20:55 | Link #6984 | |
Trust the red.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Guest House
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As for now, I must retire to a bit of non-Umineko work. Thanks for all the discussions everyone, and goodnight. |
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2010-03-24, 20:58 | Link #6985 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Before, we just had:
But in that case... what has Battler been seeing? Who is Meta-Battler? |
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2010-03-24, 21:13 | Link #6988 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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And with Sakutarou in EP6, you can already sense that their tale is over; she has Sakutarou back now. As for Battler... to some this will seem like a crappy answer.... but... Meta-Battler is on the same level as Featherine. He's a character, possibly the protagonist in the series of novels that Mystery Writer and Hachijou. The story was about him and Beatrice, although Hachijou may be trying to subvert that in EP7 now as stated by her character, Featherine. What has Detective-Piece-Battler been seeing all this time? Exactly what Sherlock Holmes has been seeing in his stories, a legitimate mystery. The episodes together (and I think as a whole) must still conform to Knox rules and must still be good mysteries. The difference is though that Battler-Prime and Rokkenjima-Prime... the Ushiromiya-Prime family... and what the REAL events were on that day are not relevant. That stuff is probably lost forever in the two-author's world. Although Mystery Author asks us to find out the truth, I believe that is some kind of deeper understanding of the background situation of the family rather than 'what really happened.' This doesn't mean that, "Ohhh it's all fake! Let's give up!" There still exists the possibility of discovering the truth through what's presented, even if it's fiction. Here's a link to my earlier post in case some people missed it regarding the Historical Method theory. http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=5168 Alot has been re-hashed out recently... but the relevant part starts after, "My theory is that the layers after EP6 are like this:" |
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2010-03-24, 21:14 | Link #6989 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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# All of them (referring to five people) had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal! In episode 3 Kanon had a gunshot wound in his stomach Shannon had a gunshot wound to the chest. Battler sees Shannon's corpse when George dies and she has not extra wounds when she is found. If Shkanon is true how can Kanon have a gunshot wound to the stomach when he doesn't exist and Shannon does? You can't shoot imaginary people in the stomach and kill them.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-25 at 19:35. |
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2010-03-24, 21:18 | Link #6990 |
Trust the red.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Guest House
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I know, I should be doing homework, but I can't stay away
So what you're saying is that, as time goes by (EP1 to EP2 etc.), the amount of love increases. As love increases, the resistance of the family members to suspect others of being the culprit also increases (since ideally they all love each other and it MUST be some person X, not beloved brother Y). As their resistance to suspect each other increases, their susceptibility to accept magic as a "way out" increases, so magic scenes and such continue to appear in greater frequency. Think about it! EP2 introduced the Stakes and Lambda, as well as meta-fighting. EP3 introduced Virgilia, Ronove, Eva-Beatrice, Siesta Sisters, Ange-Beatrice, etc., as well as more witch in-fighting EP4 introduced the whole world of 1998, Gaap, Goldsmith, etc, and a TON of new magic scenes! EP5 introduced a whole new element into the equation, Erika, as well as Dlanor and Co. and the new magic rules of the Decalogue. The whole magic trial is the epitome of a giant magic scene (or meta). EP6 don't get me started on the love trial and how blown out of proportions things get. How to explain this trend? 1. "magic resistance" of the island going down as Beatrice explained? 2. Ryukishi adding new and more twists each time for the sake of the story? 3. Or some Factor X, such as the growth of love or some other mechanism across stories? Is this love growing by itself, or is it being written through increased author awareness of the characters like someone else mentioned? So many questions!! |
2010-03-24, 21:24 | Link #6991 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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What I mean is, Ange-Prime exists and there is some world for her in which she exists. Other Rokkenjima stories notwithstanding, there's always going to be an aftermath with Ange surviving (but most people probably don't write about it). But if somebody did write about Ange-Prime, are they writing a factual account of her life or is she too being fictionalized? If the latter... well, what's the real Ange-Prime doing? But... the message bottles suggest Eva dies. And indeed, everywhere but ep3, she does die. But she's alive in Ange-3's world. If Ange-3 is Ange-Prime, then Eva survived in Rokkenjima-Prime. If Ange-3 isn't Ange-Prime, what in the world is 1998-3 supposed to be? Did the author actually write out a fictional history of Ushiromiya Ange's life if Eva had survived Rokkenjima? Why in the world would she do that? Are the Witch Hunters that interested in what some little girl does as she grows up? Does she even grow up in a world where Eva doesn't survive? What I guess I'm saying is, if you believe it's possible all the stories are fake, it's entirely possible all the people on Rokkenjima lived to 1998-Prime. But you can't prove that, and indeed it seems probable everyone thinks they died. But Ange must exist, or have existed, in the "real" universe. However, only one Ange has ever been written about that we know of. Is she (Ange-3) the real Ange? Is her world (1998-3) the real world? |
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2010-03-24, 21:29 | Link #6993 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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To say that it's not you'd have to deny Eva exists in 1998 I think because that's the first time anyone returns alive.
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2010-03-24, 21:33 | Link #6994 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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I didn't mean to imply that, merely "the 1998 that appears in episode 3 (and 4 I guess)" We know that in this world, Eva survived. How she survived may have nothing whatsoever to do with 1986-3. But she survived. That much is kinda hard to deny. Ange morosely suggests that if Eva hadn't survived, the Sumadera family might have killed her as a child. Though Ange is not exactly Little Miss Sunshine and Lollipops when it comes to speculation.
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2010-03-24, 21:37 | Link #6995 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Spoiler for Eva:
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2010-03-24, 21:39 | Link #6996 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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What if Eva didn't survive Ep3 at all? What if she only survived in the real world? |
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2010-03-24, 21:39 | Link #6997 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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It does tend to suggest that Eva surviving might have violated the actual results of the people in Hachijou/Mystery Writer's world. But I'm wondering if that too is irrelevant. People will say, "Hey, that didn't happen!" but even still the author is dropping clues about whatever the truth is. This is sorta like Dan Brown's story The Da Vinci Code. He suffered from a lot of historical inaccuracies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Da_...l_inaccuracies) but it's not to say the fiction within could not also provide some merit. You would question how good he is as an author though. In the same way, I'd question how good Hachijou is as well... |
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2010-03-24, 21:47 | Link #6998 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Anyways, regardless of what's going in the real world, I was thinking we could try solving the mystery from this end. If you take all the clues from the episodes to sort back to the truth that they're hinting to, that would be a bottom up approach. Instead, if you go top-down, you work out who the mystery writer is and work out what that writer wants you to know? So... who could be the writer? It is someone with feminine writing, a relationship with Maria and has intimate knowledge of the situation, right? Shannon? Kanon? Kumasawa? |
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2010-03-24, 21:48 | Link #6999 |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Spoiler for EP 6:
And, as everyone else already said, Ange would be tortured to death if Eva wasn't around to adopt her. Kasumi would become the legal guardian as the closest living relative to Ange. Of course, there is Kyrie's father, but at the same time Kasumi would find a way to take Ange from him since he is also part of the Sumadera family legally. |
2010-03-24, 21:57 | Link #7000 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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It also explains why Meta Ange reappears and talks to Featherine in episode 6. It's kind of like Durarara. Mikado was that pseudo protagonist he was made to look like the protagonist and was given a lot of character development in the novel, but the real protagonist turned out to really Celty Strulson the Duhullulin. In Umineko the real protagonist should be Ange if we go by this kind of writing . Actually this happens in Higurashi too! Keiichi was the fake protagonist and we learn that Rika is the real protagonist of the story later.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-24 at 22:08. |
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