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View Poll Results: Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood - Episode 54 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 61 | 71.76% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 15 | 17.65% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 5 | 5.88% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 2 | 2.35% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 0 | 0% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 1 | 1.18% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 1.18% | |
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll |
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2010-04-26, 02:58 | Link #42 | |||
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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EDIT: Actually, looking back, Miki was just win and awesome all over that episode (#17)... ^_^ Quote:
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2010-04-26, 07:48 | Link #43 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
Age: 38
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Everything below is my opinion and I won't add "IMO" in every sentence. Feel free to disagree. And I prefer to refer to Envy as a "she" but I will refer to that worm as "he" as well".
And so here we are, the most annoying chapter of FMA (94th) has finally been animated. I didn't like it in the manga and since FMA:B is several times worse than manga I hated this episode. There were only 5 good things in it: Izumi's entrance, topless Riza, Roy's anger (before everything became pink and everyone loved one another and wanted to hug), Armstrong's and Hohenheim's performances. The rest made me want to puke or at best extremely annoyed me. Firstly, Olivier annoyed me as always acting all tough and all. The whole "you're under my command now" and soldiers instantly listening to her was so unconvincing that I can't believe Arakawa did that. "Defend yourselves and don't be killed". No s*it Sherlock. And I should start with the fact they didn't shoot her on sight (even though they were ordered to) but waited until she could talk to them and until dolls came. Secondly, the thing with Roy was utterly stupid. From berserk mode Roy went to hugging everyone, saying that shrimp make him realize his mistake (yeah, right...), etc. That was completely out of his character. To be more specific: 1) Roy killed dozens of innocent people (and who knows if not hundreds, with his destructive power I wouldn't be surprised), woman and children also (whether directly or not, doesn't matter) as well as Ishbalans that only defended themselves from aggressors and had no chance against Amestris' superior power (and he knew it). He didn't kill Envy however, because it was, eh... wrong?! So mass murderer, trash and war criminal in one person was of more worth than dozens of Ishbalans? It certainly looks that way. Mustang literally made people s*it themselves and he didn't even budge then but continued to do a human barbecue. There was no sign of emotion when he fried people, even the ones that had no strength to fight back. What's more a while later he cheerfully talked with Hughes! Years later he flirted with girls and acted casually as if nothing happened, he wasn't a psycho and didn't kill people randomly. Why would killing Envy change him? Let's be serious here. 2) I don't know what Roy was waiting for with killing Envy. Before Riza or Ed could do anything he would have already burned him. He also should have done that before Riza put a gun into his head, it looked like he was waiting for her to do it. He also could kill Envy without hurting Ed (he would only warm up his automail a little). 3) Scar was preaching him, now that's a good one. He and Scar are completely different and their revenge was on a different scale too. Scar hated (and still hates but he is over with killing) ALL Amestrians. Whether they were doctors (that saved his brethren lives) or children (Ed, Al) it didn't make a difference to him. His desire for revenge had no end since there were many Ishbalan murderers. Mustang however hated only ONE person. Chain of hatred would end where it started with one death. He would kill Envy and it would be THE END. And no, I won't believe that it could change him in any way. If he wasn't changed for worse after killing innocent PEOPLE (not some worms, mass murderes at that) he would most certainly not be changed by killing the biggest son-of-a-**ore that existed. He was a guy in his thirties, people don't change easily at that age. And we've seen he could flirt, joke and live a normal life after what he had done in Ishbal, if Envy's death would change him that would mean Ishvalans were worse trash to him than Envy, i.e. he was SOF** himself and a racist. 4) To Riza torturing Envy was OK (she let Mustang burn Envy's eyes, tongue, etc.) but killing him no. She wanted to kill him herself though. 5) In the anime Mustang knew exactly when Envy would be left with one life and even made a special combo with his last attack and took a while with it, groaning as if he wanted to take a dump. Last explosion also seemed bigger then previous ones (again suggesting he knew it would be enough). That didn't make sense at all. Nice Bones. You've managed to screw up a story that was already screwed up beyond saving. That's an achievement. 6) Envy not killing Riza the first time they've met in the tunnels was strange. She loved to kill people in that manner but somehow it made sense to her to go with Riza and wait until they've met Mustang? We've seen that Mustang was capable of doing very small burns so he could probably neutralize Envy before she could do anything once they've met (and it was rather inevitable). And if she wanted to have Riza as a hostage it would be easier to her to absorb her (and not killing her by the way) thus preventing Roy from attacking (just like she did with Ed in ch. 52). 4/10 for the episode, and it's me being generous and taking into account Arakawa having a kid and all. |
2010-04-26, 08:17 | Link #44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Seriously dude, 2009 called, and they say they're sick of you and that silly little argument of yours, so feel free to join us in the year of 2010 anytime. |
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2010-04-26, 08:32 | Link #45 |
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Author
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Virginia Tech
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Gooral, one thing you're missing on your first point is the situation. In Ishbal, Roy was part of the military. He was ordered to kill the innocents. His lack of emotion was an emotion suppression, similar to somebody who doesn't cry at a funeral. This is a stark contrast to Kimblee, who simply enjoyed killing anyone he could. With Envy, this was nothing but Mustang's desire for revenge. Sure, it had implications for the entire nation, but Mustang obviously didn't want Envy dead to help save the nation. He wanted her dead so as to avenge the death of his friend.
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2010-04-26, 08:37 | Link #46 | ||||||
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35
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Envy style is to torment people. He even said how he wanted to use her beaten up corpus to tick Roy even more. When it comes down to it, he will go with the option that will damage his enemy emotionally.
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2010-04-26, 08:41 | Link #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
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People, you really shouldn't bother. He already made that argument in the Manga thread a whole year ago and Kirarakim, Sannom and Terrestrial Dream already proved how silly it is and what little grasp on FMA's story and characters he has then, yet he never listened to reason. Seeing as he still hasn't gotten over it after 356~ days it's quite obvious that this time won't be any different.
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2010-04-26, 09:12 | Link #48 | ||||||
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
Age: 38
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@Endless Twilight Neither you nor anyone else did counter my arguments, only deflected them (and it basically came to one argument - "killing in revenge would change Roy so he had to be stopped", lol). I would give you bad reputation for spamming but unfortunately I would have to spread some before I do it again. Hope someone else will after he reads your yapping. |
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2010-04-26, 09:31 | Link #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Oh no, not bad reputation! Please, anything but that!
And about your 'arguments', if you can even call them that... Nevermind the fact that they're based on huge misconceptions of the characters, they're also based on the conviction that you are able to somehow predict the future and know exactly what would have happened to Roy had he gone ahead and satisfied his lust for revenge. There's really not much I can say to 'counter' that I suppose, other than the fact that I wish you'd let me borrow your time machine, since seeing all of the possible futures for the characters would be pretty neat. |
2010-04-26, 09:39 | Link #50 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
Age: 38
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Said the person that just gave me bad rep .
No. It's the opposite of what you've said. You (and some other people too) are acting as if you were alpha and omega and know what would become of Roy once he killed Envy and don't have arguments that support that. You're saying he would change and become like Scar or worse. I have an analogous situation where Roy killed lots of people and wasn't bothered by it. You can't even answer my question, why would Envy's death bother Roy more than him killing dozens of innocent people? What's more Scar somehow changed for the better so what makes you think that Mustang would not? And let me remind you that Scar killed not one but several people out of his revenge. PEOPLE not worms (unless you;re saying that Envy was a human). Mustang wouldn't even kill his own species but some animal that had to be put down anyway. |
2010-04-26, 09:46 | Link #51 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
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One thing about the military in general.
First a soldier cannot resign from duties during a state emergency. Disobeying an order during a state emergency is a court martial offense where trial will be swift and merciless usually ending up facing a firing squad especially in a military state like Amestris. Signing up to the military is not the smartest thing in a country like Amestris but a person with ambitions has no other options but to join since there was no hope to make it to the top without doing so. No chance of a peaceful citizen up-rise either since the military is ruling the state. Roy was simply stuck between a rock and a hard spot and merely trying to do his best in worst of time. |
2010-04-26, 09:53 | Link #52 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
Age: 38
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It's better if thousands of people die then me, right? I can give a hand in a genocide if I'm being ordered to, right?
I know soldier cannot resign and I know that trial would wait for him. The problem was it was clear who was aggressor and who was a victim here. Who had superior power and who didn't stand a chance. Roy was kicking the lying (on the ground). And Alex Armstrong somehow survived after disobeying orders. He even became a major. I was only saying that regardless of the reasons Mustang killed innocent people but didn't become a bad person. making excuses doesn't justify what he did. |
2010-04-26, 10:24 | Link #54 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
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And it's easy to see why, this post of yours alone was worth a thousand facepalms. - You say I act as if I were alpha and omega when I haven't even bothered to express my opinion on the matter. - You actually think Roy wasn't bothered by the people he killed in Ishval. Haha oh wow, and you want people to take you seriously? Yeah man it's not like his entire goal as a human being revolves around his guilt or anything! - You say Scar changed for the better after becoming obsessed with revenge. Yeah, he did eventually. Only it took him YEARS UPON YEARS of miserable rage and corruption of his very soul. - You don't consider Envy a sentient being because of his true form's appearance. To quote duckroll from last year's discussion, obviously the day an intelligent alien race makes contact with Earth we should all wipe them out mercilessly because they're not humanoid? Yeah that would make sense. Now why would I bother argueing with a person like that, who to top it all off completely lacks the willingness to listen to reason and the maturity to admit that they just might be wrong? Yeah, sorry, not worth it. The only reason I intervened was to prevent fellow actual knowledgeable FMA fans from wasting their time on someone that was already proven wrong in the Manga thread an entire year ago. Last edited by Vicious108; 2010-04-26 at 17:53. |
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2010-04-26, 11:04 | Link #55 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
Age: 38
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@Endless
-Yes you did express your opinion, but not now, earlier. -I didn't write that Roy wasn't bothered by killing Ishbalans but that he did it with a straight face and without mercy. Don't put words into my mouth. Whether he regretted it or not is beyond the point, he killed every citizen of Ishval he encountered without exception. I also wrote that he didn't become a bad person because of it. Learn to read with comprehension. -No, it didn't take years. For how long was he going and killing alchemists? Not long. Including the time when he wasn't killing them is stupid because the same can be applied for Mustang. He was burning with desire for revenge the moment Hughes was killed. Actual rage lasted only few minutes, in Scar's case it was weeks if not months. -As for Envy, I wasn't saying only that. I've also mentioned that he was mass murderer and war criminal, haven't I? Again, learn to read with comprehension. And unfortunately, you failed to prove me wrong. Learn to read with comprehension first, then we can discuss. |
2010-04-26, 11:26 | Link #56 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I know each person is entitled to their opinion but I actually loved this episode. I really think this is one of the best episodes in the anime so many incredible moments, and some of them even better than in the manga.
Episode 54 Beyond the ranging Fire Spoiler for saving space:
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2010-04-26, 11:29 | Link #57 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Virginia Tech
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With Envy, however, there was no order from his superiors. There was no thoughts of saving the country. His face showed nothing but anger and hatred. He simply wanted to take his revenge on her. By stopping him, they stopped him from losing himself to his anger. They stopped him from killing someone when he had a choice, unlike the military, where you do what your superiors command.
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2010-04-26, 12:19 | Link #58 |
O_O
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Gooral, I respect your opinion - and for that matter, anyone who has different or equal opinions -, I would just like to ask you if you thought about the situation this way:
Roy did have a choice at the Ishval war - kill or not kill. But, what he really wanted to do was change the military and the way the government was, and that would require him being at the top of everything. To get there, he first needed to gather information on how things worked, so he could find a way to change everything, since no one else (at least apparently) was doing anything to change the country and it's ways. He did what he was ordered so he could stay in the military - maybe even be promoted - and get the knowledge he needed to do what he is trying to do at the moment: change the country, save future lives both of Amestris and other countries that the current government would try to overpower. To do what no one else seemed willing to do, he decided it would be better to kill a few thousands in order to be able to save much more - this is what I believe the character thought and is what Arakawa tried to convey. The point here would be almost like the point made by Alan Moore with Ozymandias in the Watchmen novel - sacrificing a few to save many, since if nobody did anything, everyone would die - if I am seriously wrong about the novel, someone please correct me. That was Roy's objective, and what gave him the steady head to do what he did at Ishval - I believe. Here, with Envy, at that moment, he didn't have any rational reason to kill him, except satisfy his desire of revenge. I believe he wasn't thinking "Envy, if I don't kill him, will go out there and kill many more", or trying to save anyone. He looked as if all he wanted was to make himself feel better - and this is not something a selfless, rational, coherent and trustworthy ruler/president should do. Caligula is an example - he killed people just for the heck of it, because he wanted to. The problem here is that Roy was doing something that neither he nor Riza, Ed, Hughes - and everyone else who backed him up untill now - agreed with, but he was overpowered by his emotions (again, a flaw when making decisions involving many people) and if it wasn't for Riza and Ed (Scar to a lesser degree, I think), he would have fully turned into a hypocrite that would be unworthy of ruling the country in the eyes of those who backed him up untill now - including himself. This would result in loss of trust in him, and all that they are currently fighting for - to change the country - would be useless, since the person they wanted leading the country is unworthy of such a position, as he would be unstable. So, I believe this is the reason that the scene is coherent, and in my opinion, very well made. If you have thought about this point before, I am sorry for using a few minutes of your time. Again, I have no problem if you disagree |
2010-04-26, 12:28 | Link #59 | |
Kana Hanazawa ♥
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 37
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Can't wait for the next episode. The manliness will be off the charts !
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2010-04-26, 12:29 | Link #60 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Heh. 'k, speaking on the Roy/revenge thing, it's actually kinda weird for me. I remember I was pretty contemptuous of how that chapter turned out back when I first read it, and felt a similar incredulity over the overdramatized 'wrongness' of Roy killing Envy and the manga's moral preachiness about revenge. I wasn't actually expecting to like this episode, but somehow, maybe because I knew it was coming, I didn't really mind it this time. The conflict between Roy's destructive emotions and Ed, Riza, and Scar all rallying to hold him back still isn't one of the high points to me of this series, but at least I think I've accepted that these are the author's intentions and that they are significant to the story.
Gooral, here is my understanding of what's 'bad' about Roy killing envy. You're right, I think the civilians he killed in Ishval were a thousand times a more monstrous crime than him killing Envy would have been. However, the difference here would have been: in Ishval, killing civilians filled Roy with revulsion and self-loathing. With Envy, Roy would only have felt satisfaction--even if only satisfaction for killing a mass murderer who threatened the fate of his country, it would be the same satisfaction that Kimblee described back in the Ishval arc about one's superiority over another. And the point is, it's not that Roy would change immediately after. Not at all. I don't buy at all the moralizing tripe about becoming 'no better than Wrath or Envy', who, despite it all, I nevertheless managed to find sympathy for at the end as a viewer. The danger lies in if Roy ever loses anything else--Riza, or any other of the prized subordinates Roy obviously put a lot of his heart in. At those times, consumed by grief, Roy would be liable to lured by the satisfaction of revenge again. As someone blindly pursuing that, there would be no way for him to properly lead a country--nor would he deserve to, if only because, at the very least, his heart wouldn't be in it. Er, I think in the above I've over-sentimentalized a number of things. A more precise counter-argument follows: Roy's revenge might be over the moment he finishes Envy. However, you won't disagree that Roy is unfit to be a leader while he is satisfying his thirst for vengeance against er, 'her', right? To take it a step further--this whole time, while Roy was chasing after Hughes' murderer, a part of him inside had festered that cared only about that vengeance, the fate of the country be damned (per his suicidal determination this episode), right? As someone who aims to be a leader, and as someone for whom many things are precious, Roy might well lose another 'Hughes' sometime in the future. If, as he did now, he went on a murderous rampage, or were preoccupied by chasing after and finding the murderer(s?), what would happen to the leadership of the country? What if his enemies, seeing that, targeted his valued subordinates directly? That is the "country lead by a blahblahblah" (I forget, someone quote it for me) that Scar was talking about. I think having all of Ed, Riza, and Scar show up, and Roy going all 'Graaah!' and being willing to kill himself, was a tad overdramatic. But presuming we're attached to idea of Roy as a leader and visionary, I think this chapter/episode is decent enough in its conclusions. It makes sense. It's not about revenge being wrong as a person, it's about revenge being wrong for someone aiming to rule for the sake of others. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-04-26 at 12:41. |
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