2007-03-31, 20:58 | Link #561 | |
日本語を食べません!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Age: 41
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I don't think it's possible, really, to learn a language "for the test" -- that is, to memorize without understanding it. EDIT: Maybe words, but likely not grammar structure or the basic kanji. |
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2007-04-02, 15:05 | Link #562 | |
A2000A
Fansubber
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On another note: I have heard from a friend in university who takes Japanese that he feels the different levels of politeness are not properly taught. That is, that the student is not properly familiarized with actually using them in conversation etc. Anyone sharing that sentiment? |
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2007-04-02, 15:17 | Link #563 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
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2007-04-02, 15:59 | Link #564 |
A2000A
Fansubber
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Well, the thing is, this guy is taking like 3rd or 4th year Japanese now. And he still has this complaint.
How suitable is classroom teaching for learning conversational Japanese anyway? I have always been a fan of learning languages through simple exposure to them. It's how I picked up English, though admittedly, I was younger when I learned English than I am now. It is becoming apparent that without anyone to actively speak/practice Japanese with, progress is slow indeed. Lack of interaction is the Achilles' heel for anyone trying to learn a language on his or her own. It is easy to land in situations where you are forced to communicate in English, especially when on vacation, however this is obviously not the case for Japanese. =) |
2007-04-02, 16:06 | Link #565 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
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But of course, if you have zero contact (as some people of my Japanese class have), you're bound to stay very, very limited in your learning. The moral of the story is, that anime and manga help a lot in picking up a good part of the language, but don't go around figuring that it represents the totality of it. That's why classes are necessary for Japanese, if your source of contact with it is solely anime and manga.
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2007-04-02, 23:45 | Link #566 | |
日本語を食べません!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Age: 41
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I only took the language for four semesters (roughly two years) but I feel like I learned a decent understanding of the hows and whens to use it. Forgot a bit of the son'keigo (尊敬語) and the ken'jougo (謙譲語) but I don't think I'll run into very many situations where I, as a non-native speaker, would be expected to use it. As a non-native, I think you'd only need to learn teineigo (丁寧語; ~masu/desu form) and kudaketago (砕けた語; informal ~u/da form). The usage is simple -- when in doubt, be polite. |
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2007-04-03, 01:51 | Link #567 |
A2000A
Fansubber
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WanderingKnight: I have heard others mention that as well, hehe. Ppl watching too much anime addressing the teacher with 'omae', rofl.
raikage: He's actually an American, so judging by your location that assumption would be at least partially incorrect. =) His complaint is that it's hard to learn what is appropriate where 'properly' in the classroom because the teacher will always insist on you being polite to him etc. Even if some practice routines try to force you to 'practice' it, it still ends up awkward since you don't generally use it. And there really isn't any properly involving, meaningful roleplay to try and fill this gap. |
2007-04-03, 07:42 | Link #568 | |
come tess me now!!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: under the sea
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not to try and copy the way they speak, but soley for word and speech recognition. most people don't live in a place where they can listen to native speakers or read in japanese. being able to hear native speakers (who speak much faster than most learning level japanese audio help) and read read japanse in non-textbook form, to me is a good learning tool. but as you said should not be used as the basis for learning the language. but if you combine what you learn at school with it and use it to enforce vocabulary, use context clues to figure out what is being said, sentence structre, voice tone and patterns, and work at trying to understand the normal native speakers pace then it should be ok. just dont use it as a gauge for how all japanese people speak. that will get you some stares |
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2007-04-03, 12:04 | Link #569 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Whether classes are useful or not depends on:
1) How you best *learn* (not just memorize and forget). 2) How the class is taught (interactive, lecture, groupwork, immersive, etc). I'm taking conversational japanese classes (lots of interactive and roleplay scenarios), that teacher is giving me sidework in kana, and combining that with some separate classes on kanji. For me, getting the information lodged in "permament" "accessible" memory is the toughest. I "know" a good deal - but it often isn't accessible when I'm put on the spot. That's the hump I'm trying to get over now. And yes... unless you want to talk like an ill-mannered japanese teen (and probably feminine-speak as well) --- don't use what you learn in anime in real life
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2007-04-03, 13:46 | Link #570 | |
Dansa med oss
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Near Cincinnati, OH, but actually in Kentucky
Age: 36
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I seem to be able to get away with using slightly feminine speech patterns like の instead of か and feminine conjugation - possibly because I'm a bit feminine myself |
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2007-04-04, 14:06 | Link #572 | |
Senior Member
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At least if guys speak like girls they can blame it on the fact that their Japanese teacher was most likely female. |
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2007-04-04, 17:32 | Link #573 | |
幻想郷
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 幻想郷
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Usually the chinpira (punk, hooligan?) way of speaking is the one that can influence your Japanese when you learn it from anime or manga. But, from the anime or manga itself you can learn how to use the expression you find there. In spite of it's bad influences, manga or anime is a good alternative to learn Japanese. From my experience, manga or anime is the fastest way to improve your vocabulary when you reach level 3 (or higher) of JLPT. About way of speaking, I think as foreign, stick on desu/masu form is the most bunan (safe) and normal yet quite polite alternative. Because, even Japanese, often mistake the usage of polite expression. I only use that when I really need to use it (means I must master it first).
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2007-04-07, 02:04 | Link #574 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
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how did you learn your japanese?
How long did it take for you to learn Japanese? what method did you use?
I would like to learn some Japanese so i don't have to read subtitles anymore. Subtitles are fine but you miss somethings when watching anime. I would also like to read Japanese mangas. thanks for the input |
2007-04-07, 02:55 | Link #575 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 42
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Haha, I've been watching anime heavily for over 10 years now and I still dont know much Japanese. Obviously I can understand a number of typical spoken phrases and words and such but thats about it. Its a very complicated language and I dont know how to read any of it and I wouldnt be much good in trying to speak it to anyone aside from very basic things.
2nd languages have never been a strong point for me. Never did well with french in school and couldnt be bothered to learn German which is my mother's parents first language. That being said, as far as languages go, I do really like Japanese and I'd love to be fluent with it, but thats likely never going to happen. |
2007-04-07, 03:15 | Link #576 |
Junior Member
Fansubber
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I recommend that you look at this guide: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ (probably the best guide for Japanese on the net- and its also better than some books which you find these days). You can also go to the forums there to ask questions.
You may also like learning Japanese through podcasts: http://www.japanesepod101.com Good luck with learning Japanese it gonna take a while- esp. kanji |
2007-04-07, 03:17 | Link #577 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
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I picked it up through anime.
I have been watching anime like about 8 years. Like Icehawk said, some of the phrases spoken I can recognize but me speaking proper Japanese is impossible. I had also bought a book on Japanese basics. It helped me a little. I think to pick the language up, a proper language course is needed. |
2007-04-07, 04:04 | Link #578 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The South of England
Age: 55
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I went to lessons at a Japanese language school. 90 minutes, twice a week, for about 1 1/2 years. That got me to what they called a Higher Intermediate stage, which was basically a good general conversational level. This is enough to get the general gist of what's going on in most shows, so long as they don't get too technical or existential (which rules out GitS on both counts! ) Unfortunately, the school shut down a few years back, so I couldn't get any further.
Basically, if you want to learn the language properly, enough to watch a show without subtitles and understand most of whats going on, or read manga without going to a kanji dictionary every other character, you need to take proper classes. |
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