Learning Japanese

[Vexx]

An english rough approx of "gomen nasai" might be: "Sleep well!" (even the usual "Good night!" is really a command of sorts)
See, its a 'command' (syntactically) but adjusted by the speaker's tone.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Vexx

An english rough approx of "oyasumi nasai" might be: "Sleep well!" (even the usual "Good night!" is really a command of sorts)
See, its a 'command' (syntactically) but adjusted by the speaker's tone.

Err... fixed

And yeah, they basically hit it.
I'll add that even though their etymology can be broken down as such, they're idiomatically entwined as such that they're not necessarily perceived as commands. An example in English might be 'farewell': it can be broken into 'fare' and 'well' to mean 'I hope good things happen to you in my absence,' but it's simply perceived as a fancy way to say 'goodbye,' which is etymologically similar.

[kitto-chan]

I know this was probably posted somewhere in this thread. But anyways, how you you overcomes the mental barrier of understanding a new langauge?

What I mean is for example, I pretty much memorized all the hiragana, and some katana, I really have no problem with the reading. And Im slowing picking up on conversational skill. But for the life of me, alot of times I run into a mental road block when reading. I mean I can enouciate the speechs perfectly but, when ask what the sentence means, I haven't a clue. Anyone have this problem?

[DarkUmi]

Don't worry. I'll bet that alot of people have that problem.(Incuding me!)What helps me the most with any language is to just practice and make flash cards with pictures(if you can draw something) next to the word. It helps alot.

[WanderingKnight]

I know this was probably posted somewhere in this thread. But anyways, how you you overcomes the mental barrier of understanding a new langauge?

It's a matter of practice. For instance, I am so used to hear Japanese that I can hardly make an immediate translation of what I'm hearing or reading, but I can grasp the concept in Japanese. But it's all a matter of practice, and of willfulness to learn the language.

[Vexx]

In an odd twist, I knew I was making some progress while sitting in a Panda Express of all places. I glanced up and they had some banners with one kanji on each. I recognized the kanji for "joy" before I noticed it also had "joy" written in english in small print at the bottom. I then realized I recognized a few of the others. Stupid, yes, but it made me feel a bit better.

Right now without aids, I can sound out any speech bubble in a manga (assuming furigana) and I'll immediately know what about half the words mean. So I'd place myself as a japanese school system almost-first-grade reader with some odd extra bits of knowledge. The rest is still "strap-on" (rapid lookup skills for words and kanji).

To sing along with Wanderingknight - persistent, stubborn, daily practice. You have to really want it and love a mind challenge.

[Kyuusai]

Originally Posted by kitto-chan

I know this was probably posted somewhere in this thread. But anyways, how you you overcomes the mental barrier of understanding a new langauge?

What I mean is for example, I pretty much memorized all the hiragana, and some katana, I really have no problem with the reading. And Im slowing picking up on conversational skill. But for the life of me, alot of times I run into a mental road block when reading. I mean I can enouciate the speechs perfectly but, when ask what the sentence means, I haven't a clue. Anyone have this problem?

They're right: Practice.

Reading itself generally won't get you very far as a beginner, though. Reading and linking it to concepts can!. You might try reading things for which you also have a spoken track, or perhaps flash cards with pictures. As your conversational skills increase, reading out loud will help more, but without conversational skills, it won't help at all.

When we learn to read, we start by sounding out words. We translate the writing into sounds, word by word, and sound by sound. The key is that when we do that, we already have a good grasp of the meaning of the sounds we're emitting. When you're learning Japanese, if you haven't re-learned how to quickly "internalize" the spoken words, then you're probably doing two levels of translation at once: Writing to sounds, then sounds in Japanese to your native language.

Of course, you probably don't read your native language by sounding it out any more, but it's only after we have experience reading a certain word either phonetically or by associating it with images (you probably learned to recognize the word "McDonald's" by seeing it on the sign, rather than sounding it out) that we learn to recognize it instantly by sight rather than interpreting it.

So:
- Improve your conversational skills.
- Read words associated with images.
- Practice, practice, practice.

My one other piece of advice is this:
Don't expect a foreign language to just become clear one day. That was my mistake. Although I grew up around foreign languages, I only had the experience to speak English. I kept thinking that in my study of foreign languages, I would come to a point where I would know enough that suddenly things made sense. As my experience learning and using Spanish and Japanese has taught me, though, it's just not that way. It's much more like learning new vocabulary in a language you already know.
We don't have different "buckets" in our brains to fill with vocabulary and grammar for each language. We just have one "bucket" for language, period, and are selective about what we sift out when we need it. Realizing that helped me to accelerate my language acquisition immediately.

Children learn language quickly not because they're better at it than adults, but because their minds start out in "language-acquisition" mode. As an adult, you may have to re-learn how to find that mode, but you can. The first step is to not feel defeated!

[WanderingKnight]

As an addition, you may want to pay more attention to what anime characters say. Despite the fact that regular Japanese people *don't* speak like anime characters, it can be an extremely helpful tool for internalizing the language, but only if you bear in mind that it is not a common way of speaking. Many times, I surprise myself not reading the subs at all, as used as I am to the Japanese speech.

[kitto-chan]

I agree with all of you in saying practices makes perfect. I do practice when Im free, associating the character with an image, I never thought of that. Good suggestions.

(Arrgggghhh. I can't type in hiragana in VB) mina san domo arigato gosaimasu.

[deathreape98]

so tell me if im right....i should learn japanese grammar first, then basic vocab, then hiragana and katakana and kanji, while working on my vocab at the same time?

[Mueti]

I'd start with Kana, before everything else. Try avoiding romaji. Other than that it's basically like you said...only that you can't divide everything all that clearly. Once you got the basics down you'll expand your vocabulary along with the kanji you know and come across the not-so-basic grammatical stuff. At least that's how it is for me.

[WanderingKnight]

(Arrgggghhh. I can't type in hiragana in VB)

Huh? I can type it perfectly! Aren't you using IME or something like that? Or are you using some kind of third-party program?

[Vexx]

Bouncing around from grammar to kanji to kana once I got a few months into it helps me keep from going insane ... but that's much like school: don't overload the brain in one area.

In my case, the toughest to get glued into my brain has been katakana (not kanji)... its like my brain says "baka you already have a set of phonetic syllables (hiragana)... whyforyou pasting these crazy Klingon symbols on top of sweet hiragana????"

Well.. anyway, that's my interpretative dance of how my brain resists rewiring.

[Risaa]

My main issue is that I have no one to talk with in Japanese... so I know I must be putting the emphasis on the wrong syllables of many words. I'm much, much better at reading it (just don't ask me to read out loud... I know the meanings of a lot of kanji, but the pronunciation? Remembering them is one of my weakest areas).

I also have a whole lot of trouble with listening comprehension, which goes along with not having anyone to speak with... on paper I can clearly see what are words and what are particles, etc., but whenever sensei spoke in class, it would take me a while to figure out what she was saying (and that goes with all the Japanese teachers I've ever had).

[Areguzanda]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

As an addition, you may want to pay more attention to what anime characters say. Despite the fact that regular Japanese people *don't* speak like anime characters, it can be an extremely helpful tool for internalizing the language, but only if you bear in mind that it is not a common way of speaking. Many times, I surprise myself not reading the subs at all, as used as I am to the Japanese speech.

I don't know how but for my sake some times I can have a Anime running , watching it, and the next second I'm answering a message on MSN and hearing the Anime in the back of the message, but still know what the heck they are saying even though I cant see the sub's.
so I guess I'm learning something.
heck I even use Japanese words instead of Norwegian or English ones in my daily-life just because it comes out naturally
I even thanked my friend yesterday with an Arigatou, he just: what? O_o
ooh...eeh thanx

lol
I even said Ohayou to my brother last Saturday morning
though he understood it since he watches Anime himself

( even though I can't read or write Japanese at all..... can't speak long sentences either. I've got a long way to go =/ )

[deathreape98]

Rissa, try holding a voice chat via xfire/teamspeak/msn/ventrillo/whatever with some of the japanese-speaking people here

[Mueti]

Originally Posted by Vexx

In my case, the toughest to get glued into my brain has been katakana (not kanji)... its like my brain says "baka you already have a set of phonetic syllables (hiragana)... whyforyou pasting these crazy Klingon symbols on top of sweet hiragana????"

I can't say that Katakana is tougher than Kanji for me but I regularly find myself stumbling over many (imported) Katakana-words. I have to read them out loud a few times and sometimes I'll get them this way.
Like: "ブラザース ... burazaasu...
brazaas...wtf...
brazas...
ohh!....
brothers...omg!"

[Kyuusai]

Originally Posted by Vexx

In my case, the toughest to get glued into my brain has been katakana (not kanji)... its like my brain says "baka you already have a set of phonetic syllables (hiragana)... whyforyou pasting these crazy Klingon symbols on top of sweet hiragana????"

Well.. anyway, that's my interpretative dance of how my brain resists rewiring.

I had the exact same problem. I still do, really: Oftentimes when I come across katakana my brain won't process it until I "change gears".

I tend to become offended to some degree with useless activity or examples of willing stupidity or incompetence. Katakana satisfies both of those, because it's redundant and it has characters which are not only misleadingly similar to certain hiragana, but also misleadingly similar to OTHER katakana (シ and ツ, ソ and ン... I NEED TO KNOW WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS SO I CAN BEAT THEM!).

Whoever standardized katakana hated literacy only marginally less than they hated kanji.

Originally Posted by Risaa

My main issue is that I have no one to talk with in Japanese... so I know I must be putting the emphasis on the wrong syllables of many words. I'm much, much better at reading it (just don't ask me to read out loud... I know the meanings of a lot of kanji, but the pronunciation? Remembering them is one of my weakest areas).

I also have a whole lot of trouble with listening comprehension, which goes along with not having anyone to speak with... on paper I can clearly see what are words and what are particles, etc., but whenever sensei spoke in class, it would take me a while to figure out what she was saying (and that goes with all the Japanese teachers I've ever had).

Are you actually emphasizing syllables in volume or "force", or just adjusting your pitch? Years ago, my aunt asked me why I emphasized certain syllables the way I did when I spoke Japanese. I was more careful at that point, but didn't really understand until I saw pitch explained later. I'm not assuming you didn't know, just trying to be helpful, just in case.

I'm really flabbergasted that Japanese doesn't have pitch notation for its phonetic writing systems. I've only seen ONE book that's ever even addressed the issue of pitch when listing vocabulary. The lack of pitch notation creating so many heteronyms in Japanese is one of the biggest reasons kanji is still used.

The best advice I have for listening comprehension is this link:
http://japanesepod101.com
Free lesson mp3s. PDF transcripts are available for a small fee, but you can bulk-download without maintaining a monthly subscription.

[WanderingKnight]

I tend to become offended to some degree with useless activity or examples of willing stupidity or incompetence. Katakana satisfies both of those, because it's redundant and it has characters which are not only misleadingly similar to certain hiragana, but also misleadingly similar to OTHER katakana (シ and ツ, ソ and ン... I NEED TO KNOW WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS SO I CAN BEAT THEM!).

What about カ (ka) and 力 (chikara), 夕(yuu) and タ (ta)?

[Syaoran]

Originally Posted by Kyuusai

I tend to become offended to some degree with useless activity or examples of willing stupidity or incompetence. Katakana satisfies both of those, because it's redundant and it has characters which are not only misleadingly similar to certain hiragana, but also misleadingly similar to OTHER katakana (シ and ツ, ソ and ン... I NEED TO KNOW WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS SO I CAN BEAT THEM!).

Wasn't this introduced by a monk of the Tendai or Shingon Buddhist schools?
You'll need the old De Lorean DMC-12 to travel back in time to kick the monk's ass.

But be careful, it's the boss monk, so it will be kinda hard