2009-11-18, 18:54 | Link #9241 |
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Not to mention that Suzaku in season 1 could be likened to The Fool to an extent, benefitting largely from various fortuitous events, namely getting spared from death by his father's keepsake watch, being discovered by Lloyd and Cecille which led to him gaining access to the Lancelot, and meeting Euphie.
Now you could argue that Lelouch lucked out by being given Geass, but the rest of his success rested on his smarts, charisma, organizational skills, and sheer determination. Not to mention that the SAZ also happened after Euphie encountered Lelouch on Kaminejima Island, and subsequently Nunnally at the school festival, and had been encouraged by her meeting with Nina. |
2009-11-19, 16:04 | Link #9242 | ||||
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It would have happened. Suzaku isn't a messiah figure who has to deliver everything himself to be validated. It merely has to happen, and Suzaku's support and connection with Euphie were as necessary for her to get the personal strength to do so as anyone else. Quote:
Really, that's an amazing exception to make, and ignores the number of times Lelouch lucked out thanks to his own deus ex machinas. C.C. was that deus ex a number of times. Lelouch's successes were often dependant on Geass, which is not his own power. Quote:
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2009-11-19, 18:20 | Link #9243 |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
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The SAZ might have been "paradise" for Lelouch and Suzaku, since they were Euphie's first concern, but other than that, it's highly questionable that it would have resulted in a change of Britannia's policies as a whole.
The difference between Lelouch's luck and Suzaku's is that Suzaku's way of going about things wasn't realistic to begin with. Lelouch had a chance of achieving change even without luck. Suzaku, on ther other hand, would have ended as cannon fodder at best. In many cases, Lelouch used Geass because it was the quickest solution, not the only one. In others, he needed luck because life just hated him - Mao, for example, was something he could not have seen coming, at least before he acquired Geass. There were instances like the one where Cornelia almost got him because he was being overconfident, but without Geass, it's quite possible he would have been more careful and never even gotten into such a situation. Who knows? In Suzaku's case, though, it's pretty clear that without the Lancelot, he would have been screwed. Well, or not, considering he wanted to die.
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2009-11-19, 18:54 | Link #9244 | |
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2009-11-20, 01:48 | Link #9245 |
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What is the basis for this? Prerequisite to Lelouch achieving any change at all is for him to actually defeat Britannia. Lelouch's revolution never succeeded even with geass--what makes it any more likely he could have done so without it?
Although Suzaku's method has a 'destroy the enemy' prerequisite too, it is a perfectly realistic way of doing things. Given the smaller size of the enemy, in fact it is moreso. Suzaku doesn't need to be alive to change Britannia, he just needs to crush any further hope of resistance--then the Japanese, driven by the necessity of making a living, and Britannia, without any provocation for further punishment, would move fully into the process of assimilation. |
2009-11-20, 03:31 | Link #9246 | |
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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On the other hand, Suzaku outright would not have accomplished a thing if not for Lelouch. He'd still be a grunt sent in as cannon fodder, without any hope of promotion. Even after that, he lives off Zero. Any success he gains is done through Zero, even indirectly as with the SAZ. Suzaku never works for his goal, a few instances (KoR promotion) notwithstanding. He just expects it to be handed to him.
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2009-11-20, 03:50 | Link #9247 | ||
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2009-11-20, 12:32 | Link #9248 |
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Suzaku would've gone nowhere without Zero, that may be true, but the same can be said about Lelouch and geass. He said he was planning on destroying Britannia regardless, but his changes were pretty slim w/o geass. I guess he could always wait to become emperor, but he was 17th in line so...yeah.
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2009-11-20, 13:38 | Link #9249 |
Um-Shmum
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do i really have to point out that suzaku's path led him right into a kangaroo court that he would later be saved from by lelouch ?
after which he actually WENT BACK to it if lelouch hadnt took the credit for it during the rescue op, suzaku would have still been hung for a crime he did not commit he KNEW that, and he still went back suzaku's path on its own does not lead anywhere but his own death which one should note, is exactly what he wants
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2009-11-20, 14:48 | Link #9250 | |
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2009-11-20, 15:09 | Link #9251 |
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Is there some definitive basis for assuming Lloyd/Cecil only found Suzaku as a result of him being shot/pulled off the battlefield? Actually, since they somehow seemed to have compatibility data about him even before he piloted in that instance, it kinda stands to reason that they'd had an eye on him for a while. Given Suzaku's superhuman physical abilities, I don't think it's all that certain he'd have remained a grunt.
As for what would qualify as Suzaku's accomplishment, you guys seem to be under the mistaken assumption that Suzaku's aim is promotion or personal power. This is mistaken. At the base level, Suzaku's goal was to wipe out resistance and terrorism, both in reality and in the people's hearts. Garnering personal accomplishments and being promoted is merely a secondary goal which encourages participation within the Empire by setting an example. His fundamental intent, however, was to force participation by necessity by leaving the Japanese no other alternative--improvement of conditions spurred by their cooperation would then occur naturally, without any need to rely on Suzaku. edit: I really have to wonder what Lelouch's supposed 'greater plan' would have consisted of. Zero only gained the support of the resistance movement because he was the 'man of miracles'. Without this ability to easily unbalance his opponents internally, Lelouch's strategic capabilities hardly measure up to even Cornelia. Without the 'power' of geass, and without the 'power' of a personal army, would he have had any power at all? Last edited by Sol Falling; 2009-11-20 at 15:20. |
2009-11-20, 15:22 | Link #9252 | |||
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2009-11-20, 16:05 | Link #9254 | ||
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And without Zero, Suzaku would never have to face that trial nor would he get shot by his superior. |
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2009-11-20, 16:19 | Link #9255 | ||
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No, he just would have been shot in another cannon fodder engagement when he was unarmed.
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Last edited by morbosfist; 2009-11-20 at 16:31. |
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2009-11-20, 16:19 | Link #9256 | |||
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Lloyd laments this fact out loud in fact, all the pilots were not free at the time suzaku wasnt selected from the start, he was just the only one LEFT for Lloyd to try out (because he was injured) there was no point for them to seek a pilot who they knew would never be allowed to field test the lancelot anyway (its only lelouch's actions that force clovis to OK it) Quote:
oppression breeds resistance. which is ironicly the REASON why suzaku's goal is doomed from the start britannia does not seek to integrate the numbers into their society in the first place, and would ALWAYS treat the numbers as lessers and hence, there would never be an end to the various rebellions against it Quote:
i'm sure he'd be able to find some OTHER way to get himself killed suzaku's survival is living proof that while the universe may hate lelouch, it fucking loves suzaku (or hates him, depending on how you/he views it) 1)when the "poison capsule" opens, he sticks his own gas mask on lelouch rather then himself (he's lucky its not really poison) 2)he willingly gets shot by his superior (lucky for him, his dad's watch protects him) 3) he gets sentenced to death and then after getting rescued he GOES BACK (lucky for him, his rescuer also cleared him of the charges) and just in case you think suzaku isnt entirely about blind luck 4)he walks out of the court and by the clearest display of divine favor, a royal princess who is unique amongst her family in not being evil, litteraly FALLS INTO HIS ARMS say what you will about suzaku the universe seems to like him
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2009-11-20, 17:52 | Link #9258 | ||||
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2009-11-20, 18:26 | Link #9259 | ||
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2009-11-20, 18:50 | Link #9260 | |||
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In an ideal world where Lelouch raises up Japan and starts from there, he isn't going to be facing the remnants of Britannia torn apart from within, and he's still going to be facing an orbital nuke fortress down the line. Quote:
The collapse of the settlement, for example; even if you go exactly up to that strategic point without Geass (say Suzaku is never rescued), handwave everything to that point, it would have been impossible to collapse the final Britannia defensive lines of the Tokyo settlement without Geass. Without collapsing those lines, Lelouch won't decimate most of Cornelia's forces, won't send Britannia's last lines to the government building and abandon everything else. Cornelia or her equivalent would hold out in the fortress of the settlement holding out until Schneizel would arrive and Lelouch's uprising would lose. Lelouch isn't in a position of being powerful enough to oppose Schneizel. The point is that Lelouch needed Geass for any chance to achieve his aims. Getting Geass is infinite luck, and without it (that luck and the Geass) Lelouch had no chance. And even with Geass, Lelouch lost the moment V.V. made a single move and retrieved Nunally in the confusion. Something that would surely happen Geass or no geass. And we know how that turned out. Lelouch's goal was just as unrealistic as Suzaku's. Suzaku's depended on unsupported faith in Brittanians. Lelouch depended on a unknown, supernatural power for even a fighting chance, a fighting chance which was annihalated the moment Charles sent V.V. to get Nunally. Which really was inevitable, since it happened the moment Lelouch became an actual threat. Quote:
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