[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Kealym]

I'd note that as far as I've read, the majority of children resulting from incest are perfectly typical.. Not that there isn't a higher risk of some kind of congenital problem, but most pieces of fiction blow it way out of proportion compared to the actual risks involved.

Typically, if a baby is born with ambiguous genitalia. the doctor will, uh, make things less ambiguous. Though Lion was a secret birth, so, maybe that wasn't possible. Also, we have literally no reason to think Natsuhi thought there was something off with the baby itself. I know, 'Later Queen Problem' and all, but as far as we know right now, the passages say pretty directly that she was mostly just offended that the baby was THERE, and what it'd mean for her as a woman and wife.

It also sounds weird that Kinzo would raise someone that has a typical female body as a boy because "lol misogyny". It just seems to present more problems than it's worth for a kid he's already willing to make a crap ton of exceptions for in their life, right?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Yasu seems to insist it was a would that damaged him/her.

But maybe Yasu was not thinking about physical damage. It could as well mean that "because I fell down at that time, my life was ruined" or something like that, not thinking about the damage on her body, but about the consequences.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

But maybe Yasu was not thinking about physical damage. It could as well mean that "because I fell down at that time, my life was ruined" or something like that, not thinking about the damage on her body, but about the consequences.

Well, this is Yasu's complain from Ep 7:

"Why...?!! Why did you save me?! Why didn't you let me die?! Because of that terrible injury, ......I've been forced to live in a body like this!! I never wanted to live in a body like this!! This body that isn't even capable of love......!! What's...what's the point in living like that?! This isn't a human's life...!! It's like being furniture!!
That's right, I'm...furniture...!! Furniture...!! Why......why didn't you let me die back then?!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh......!!!"

She clearly complains about an injury, not about physical malformation at birth or consequences the fall had on her life.

Of course the injury could have been just something that worsened her condition, or not wishing to explain her the whole problem, the injury could have been blamed for her condition (which seems stupid but those 3 had done stupider things) but that's speculation similar to when Erika made a George's family culprit theory using the fact that the rules gave her freedom to make up things that weren't included in the story presented.

I'm not saying it's wrong (actually I like it more) but I think it's more unlikely than the explanation offered using solely what's said in the story.

[Renall]

Whatever the situation, it's something which Yasu believes to be physical. I don't think her dialogue makes sense strictly metaphorically. That doesn't necessarily mean she's correct, but there's gotta be something going on to lead to that conclusion. Or something she was told. And I can't see Genji trying to traumatize her, so either she's taking something pretty normal way out of proportion or something messed up did indeed happen.

[GreyZone]

What do you think Genji would tell Yasu more likely?


That (s)he "became infertile because of an injury"?

Or do you think it is rather that (s)he "was born infertile because of a genetic defect that was caused by Kinzo impregnating his own daughter"?


I am sure that Genji told Yasu the truth later on... but I don't think he did at the moment where Yasu was complaining about it.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

What do you think Genji would tell Yasu more likely?


That (s)he "became infertile because of an injury"?

Or do you think it is rather that (s)he "was born infertile because of a genetic defect that was caused by Kinzo impregnating his own daughter"?


I am sure that Genji told Yasu the truth later on... but I don't think he did at the moment where Yasu was complaining about it.

Honestly why to drop in a lie about her fertility in that moment? Expecially if they planned to tell her the truth? And more important, why to show us that moment if Yasu later on knew the truth? It generated a false impression of Yasu's problem being caused by the fall in the reader, a false impression that's completely not needed.

Besides Yasu just discovered she was Kinzo's heir. She might want to know why she didn't live with the Ushiromiya and consider showing up and claiming the inheritance.
Now... even if she was told that Natsuhi dropped her and that's why she wasn't raised in the Ushiromiya family the question would beg further explanations:

So she dropped me and you did nothing to her but sent me in an orphanage?
And why was the truth kept hidden to my father?
What if I show up and reveal the truth?

Genji basically kidnapped her under the belief to protect her not just by Natsuhi but also by her father and if she'll show up and claim she was the baby of X years ago (was it 17 at that point? Can't remember...) she'll end up being informed back then she was a baby boy, not a baby girl.

Also Yasu's words were all in red.

Sorry, I told you, I'll prefer if it was genetic but right now it seems we're forcing a solution when everything in the tale points to another one.

Yes, our solution would probably be better... but it doesn't look like the intended one.

[AuraTwilight]

Also Yasu's words were all in red.

Psst. That's not that that overtone meant.

[fg204]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

What do you think Genji would tell Yasu more likely?


That (s)he "became infertile because of an injury"?

Or do you think it is rather that (s)he "was born infertile because of a genetic defect that was caused by Kinzo impregnating his own daughter"?


I am sure that Genji told Yasu the truth later on... but I don't think he did at the moment where Yasu was complaining about it.

I don't really think that fertility is the main issue here, but rather a physical deformity that renders Yasu unable to have sex. Considering the many sexual connotations whenever the subject of "furniture" is brought up in the first two episodes written by Yasu, it just doesn't make sense thematically for infertility to be what Yasu considered to cause him/her to be "incapable of love" leading to his/her "furniture" complex. I don't think it was even suggested that infertility would make someone "less than human" particularly considering that Natsuhi, who had fertility problems before conceiving Jessica, never at any point considered herself as "furniture". The fact that Yasu's furniture complex is just as prominent with Battler and Jessica, neither of whom indicates any interest in kids, further suggests that the problem lies in Yasu's capacity for romantic love/sex.

[AuraTwilight]

I don't really think that fertility is the main issue here, but rather a physical deformity that renders Yasu unable to have sex.

Given all the means there are of having sex, that's....not really possible. Yasu has to know that, she's not THAT stupid.

You do bring up a point that it's probably not a "kids" issue, but the more likely idea is that she feels disgusted with her body and feels she's UNWORTHY of love. That she "can't" be in the same way that a closeted, self-hating gay person "can't love."

[fg204]

From just before Shannon's death in EP2:

Spoiler:

I think it's pretty clear that these particular passages spoken by Beatrice hides a much deeper pain behind them, especially when we reread this part with the realization Yasu is basically screaming all of this at herself. It isn't really until this moment that Beatrice becomes the literally violent, screaming, hysterical embodiment of Yasu’s self-loathing, and it’s really horrifying and painful to see. Yasu can indulge in all the self-delusional fantasy (regarding the ideal that "love is beautiful") (s)he wants but knows deep down that (s)he will ultimately find only pain and rejection from the real world as Beatrice here highlights that “men” are only drawn to Shannon because of her "womanly" qualities, i.e. her "female scent". The one obsessed with “furniture” in this instance isn’t “Shannon", but rather “Beatrice”, using it as a slur and trying to batter Shannon down with it.

Shannon tries to counter Beatrice by saying she doesn’t really have regrets, and that Beatrice is pitiful. The fantasy narrative makes Shannon look dignified in the face of Beatrice’s anger and bitterness, but it’s all different shades of Yasu’s self-loathing. Shannon perhaps represents a part of Yasu that think that her (so far non-physical) relationship with George is enough that her physical problems don’t matter. But the fact that she can’t convince herself is just another aspect of what makes her feel so repulsive and disgusting, as she tells herself "love is lust and can't be measured without sleeping together."


Also, recall Kanon and Jessica's death in this episode:

(Goats appear with blades, then Kanon shows his own "blade")

Kanon: Something like this... can't even be used to trim the roses.
Jessica: Kanon-kun…what is…
Kanon: I didn’t want…to show you.

Stripping the scene of magic, we see Kanon admitting (by showing his "blade") that he didn’t want Jessica to understand what being furniture really meant.

Beatrice mocks him for it: “So you've taken it out... How does it feel to have the fact that you are a subhuman being exposed in front of the girl you have feelings for?”

Again, the sexual connotations are fairly obvious. By revealing his “blade”, Kanon has in essence revealed that he’s “subhuman”, the definition of furniture. And what makes him “subhuman” in reality? Having been physically deformed, being stuck between sexes without any easy way to fix or mentally cope with it.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by fg204

I don't really think that fertility is the main issue here, but rather a physical deformity that renders Yasu unable to have sex.
...
I don't think it was even suggested that infertility would make someone "less than human" particularly considering that Natsuhi, who had fertility problems before conceiving Jessica, never at any point considered herself as "furniture". The fact that Yasu's furniture complex is just as prominent with Battler and Jessica, neither of whom indicates any interest in kids, further suggests that the problem lies in Yasu's capacity for romantic love/sex.

I agree that infertility isn't necessarily the main issue, but I do think it's quite important to the series in several ways.

Spoiler for Relevant interview quotes from Ryukishi:

R And I think it is plenty possible to arrive at the solution, that George’s idea of their life after marriage pained her quite much.

K To have many children in a happy home…

R "I want to spend my future surrounded by many grandchildren!", said George recklessly, already cementing a future with children. But it’s his desire to have children, right?! And I think you can guess that this put a lot of pressure on her.

K Yasu said in EP7 that she has "a body that is unable to love".

R If you take this expression as a basis, you can imagine her sad fate of a having some kind of imperfection on a sexual level. I think it’s possible to get to that point.

K At first I was thinking that it was maybe a terrible wound that chained Yasu to the bed. But that does not seem to be the case at all.

R It is a pretty adult topic, so I had to obscure it’s depiction.

K Because there were expressions like "I hate it to even look at a mirror", I was doubting the part that she was honestly in love with George.

How scary must it be, to be told that your partner "wants children", when you have a body that cannot make love. That’s why Shannon couldn’t speak honestly. Because she thought she would be hated if she were honest. But to be honest, I think if she really told him that, George would be more than happy to modify his plans for the future. But Shannon was far to scared to hear that. And if you turn this around, it means that George really wasn’t just a replacement for Battler. Maybe he was a replacement at the beginning, but at some point she began completely seeing George for the man he was. If you think about that, his comment about children, must have kept haunting her in silence.

So, it's more as if the infertility issue is something which was twisting the knife, but wasn't the only cause of Yasu's distress.

On the other hand, in regard to Natsuhi, I do think the infertility issue with her was supposed to parallel Yasu's condition.

Natsuhi: It was all my fault, because I couldn't bear a child...

Kinzo: "It's clear now that you cannot bear children. ......There must be some sort of defect in your body."

Natsuhi: "I don't hate Father. ......If anything, ......I only hated my own body...! I detested it! I truly detested my own body for being unable to bear a child......!!"

Natsuhi: "I couldn't stand it......, I couldn't stand it...... I hated my body...! So, I hated this baby, ......because it made my failure so apparent...!!"

So, Natsuhi thought she had a defect in her body which meant she couldn't bear a child, and she deeply hated her own body. Her self-hatred has got to be a mirror for Yasu's hatred. Although she never got called something like "furniture" (which Yasu coined many, many years later) the treatment she received from Kinzo and Eva and the pressure she felt under was certainly dehumanising. Eva didn't even stop once Natsuhi had a child.

Eva: I'm telling you to bow down before the third ranked in the Ushiromiya family hierarchy, who is allowed to stand at the left shoulder of the head!! Know your place!! And then look in a mirror at your shabby figure!! Where on your clothes is the wing? Where are you permitted to wear the One-winged Eagle? Aren't you nothing more than a borrowed womb to house the next successor to the Ushiromiya family!! Understand your place, you lowly maidservant!!"

(Maidservant...) And yet another reference to mirrors and being unable to look at oneself. Yasu has certainly been raised in an environment where there has been an emphasis on Natsuhi's worth as being only as a womb, and where Natsuhi was considered to be a failure as a woman and a wife at the time when she couldn't conceive. It won't have done Yasu any good to be exposed to this environment. Adding into that the fact that George even talked about wanting kids, it's like Ryukishi said, Yasu will have felt a huge amount of pressure.

Aside from Natsuhi, childbearing was also introduced as a theme in regard to Kyrie, where Kyrie believed that her having a stillborn child was the reason Rudolf stayed with Asumu, and caused her "hell". Although it's harder to draw a parallel between Kyrie and Yasu.

[Renall]

The biggest problem I have with the entire sexuality motif is that... what about Battler? We see so little of that relationship that while it's possible to believe that Yasu holds it up as a sort of pure intellectual love, I find it hard to believe this complex wouldn't somehow creep back in. I suppose it might be said that, because it predates the complex, it's somehow immune to it... but how, exactly? Especially given that Beatrice is physically everything Yasu cannot be, so there is definitely a physical component ascribed to it.

It's almost like the furniture complex is a justification for rejection because Yasu is holding out for what she actually wants. The real problem isn't the inability to love physically, but the fact that she doesn't truly love anyone but Battler, so the only love that would remain for George or Jessica is necessarily physical and thus not possible. She then tries to pass it off as self-directed rage because she can't blame the two of them for something that's entirely her fault.

Also, I really can't see a person who goes into this sort of self-loathing breakdown as being capable of executing these sorts of murders. Someone that emotionally and physically unstable is probably only getting away with it through authorial fiat. And then, well, you know, there's the issue that the author is clearly not crazy in the same way, so it almost feels like the self-loathing is intentionally exaggerated.

If it isn't, then I don't really see what's supposed to be likeable about this character. "Leads people on for selfish reasons, gets mad at them and herself for things that are completely her own fault, snaps and murders everyone she claims to love?" Yeah, sorry, there's no "love" for that character that can convince me to wring out a drop of sympathy. So I'd like to think it's just theatrics for Battler's sake... but then I still don't know what the whole complex would do to that relationship were it to be restarted. Is she just holding out hope that Battler doesn't care? Is Pervy Battler a way to again justify her rejection by characterizing him as someone to whom physicality matters? Was that actually not the case?

[Drifloon]

I really can't agree with the idea that Yasu's self-loathing is some kind of exaggeration at all. If anything, it's practically the defining point of her character. The fact that she sees herself as furniture, her hatred of herself for being unable to love, the constant self-vilification and mockery of her own beliefs that is so present in her message bottles...It's most certainly an important point, and really, I don't see anything that unbelievable about it. I'm honestly continually stricken by how genuinely human Yasu's character is, actually.

And as for whether she makes a believable culprit, well...the fact is, a lot of people commit murder, and many of those aren't people that would have seemed to be the type to kill to the outside, even to those who felt they were really close to the person in question. Self-hatred is seriously an incredibly destructive thing, as I know from experience; if it's kept bottled up inside for long enough, without anyone else knowing about it, it can definitely become all-consuming and yes, it can ultimately turn into a total apathy and inability to care about anything, like the Beatrice we see in some of Clair's scenes or in the EP4 tea party. Such a state of mind would more likely lead to suicide than anything else, but yes, I can see it leading to some kind of desperate, futile gamble like the one Yasu ended up pulling, on the basis that she has nothing to lose anyway and can't really bring herself to care about the consequences, however much she might intelectually understand them.

...And, well, whether that's something that can be sympathised with is ultimately up to the reader, I guess! But on whether it's actually believable or not, I honestly think that it is. A person can definitely be perfectly intelectually sound, even to the extent of being able to plan and write something as complicated as the message bottle stories (and indeed the murders themselves), while still being a complete and utter mess emotionally. With all the
complicated stuff Yasu's had to deal with, I can definitely see her getting to that point. Maybe you would call that "insane", but in the end that's just a label for a state that a normal person can't identify with. Being "insane" doesn't necessarily mean that one isn't capable of logical, rational thought; a person can intelectually know that something's wrong, but that really doesn't hold much power if they're too emotionally ruined to care.

...Man, I really should stop getting into these debates, they're not good for me at all. I just can't seem to help myself from trying to defend Beatrice as a character, since she's honestly what makes Umineko for me. I'll get back to proofreading Part 6 now.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Renall

[...]Yeah, sorry, there's no "love" for that character that can convince me to wring out a drop of sympathy. So I'd like to think it's just theatrics for Battler's sake... but then I still don't know what the whole complex would do to that relationship were it to be restarted. Is she just holding out hope that Battler doesn't care? Is Pervy Battler a way to again justify her rejection by characterizing him as someone to whom physicality matters? Was that actually not the case?

I think there was a scene where PieceBattler explained that he only did these "pervy things" to relieve tension.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

I really can't agree with the idea that Yasu's self-loathing is some kind of exaggeration at all. If anything, it's practically the defining point of her character. The fact that she sees herself as furniture, her hatred of herself for being unable to love, the constant self-vilification and mockery of her own beliefs that is so present in her message bottles...It's most certainly an important point, and really, I don't see anything that unbelievable about it. I'm honestly continually stricken by how genuinely human Yasu's character is, actually.

Well of course it's human. But it's also extremely questionable whether her mental state was actually as damaged as she may have portrayed it. It's a legitimate question given the difficulty in knowing enough about the change in her character from 1984 to 1986.

Plus if the letters are pre-incident, the state she was in while writing them may have differed quite a bit once the actual time came. What if Battler wasn't what she expected? What if she was foiled as she'd hoped? What if she just got cold feet because there's a big difference between doing something private and harmless and doing something to actual people?

And as for whether she makes a believable culprit, well...the fact is, a lot of people commit murder, and many of those aren't people that would have seemed to be the type to kill to the outside, even to those who felt they were really close to the person in question. Self-hatred is seriously an incredibly destructive thing, as I know from experience; if it's kept bottled up inside for long enough, without anyone else knowing about it, it can definitely become all-consuming and yes, it can ultimately turn into a total apathy and inability to care about anything, like the Beatrice we see in some of Clair's scenes or in the EP4 tea party. Such a state of mind would more likely lead to suicide than anything else, but yes, I can see it leading to some kind of desperate, futile gamble like the one Yasu ended up pulling, on the basis that she has nothing to lose anyway and can't really bring herself to care about the consequences, however much she might intelectually understand them.

...And, well, whether that's something that can be sympathised with is ultimately up to the reader, I guess! But on whether it's actually believable or not, I honestly think that it is. A person can definitely be perfectly intelectually sound, even to the extent of being able to plan and write something as complicated as the message bottle stories (and indeed the murders themselves), while still being a complete and utter mess emotionally. With all the
complicated stuff Yasu's had to deal with, I can definitely see her getting to that point. Maybe you would call that "insane", but in the end that's just a label for a state that a normal person can't identify with. Being "insane" doesn't necessarily mean that one isn't capable of logical, rational thought; a person can intelectually know that something's wrong, but that really doesn't hold much power if they're too emotionally ruined to care.

Why pick a day when there are a dozen innocent people completely unrelated to her problem? Because Battler just happened to be coming back that day? What stopped her from buying a knife, calling him on the phone, and meeting him for a heart-to-heart/lover's suicide? That goes beyond self-destructive or even sick and starts bordering on willful, deliberate evil. I do not believe that Yasu was evil. Even if she were mentally unstable, she is sane enough to at least realize that she can kill herself at any point she wants. If she decides that she cares so little for anything that she'll just murder everyone who cares about her and several people who had nothing to do with anything... well that's monstrous. I could totally understand snapping and killing herself. I could understand killing Battler. Where do you draw the line at what you think is understandable and what you recognize as morally reprehensible? Is it slaughtering a nine-year-old girl? Is it murdering some guy who just worked there? Is it orphaning a six-year-old? If she is intellectually capable of understanding these things, how does she justify them? If she's capable of detailed planning, why not plan a way to get as many unrelated innocents as possible out of the way before sealing up her catbox?

If she is so lacking in empathy as to fail entirely to understand that her actions do irreparable harm to people who have not intentionally or deliberately harmed her, she does not deserve to have her heart understood. That's not spite, that's simple fairness. Why should I feel sorry for one who had no sympathy for others? Someone who, despite swearing up and down that she could not be loved, was loved? Proposed as you have, we're talking about a culprit who was so selfish, so lacking in empathy, so downright indifferent to the world that she found it perfectly acceptable to do unto others the evil that was done unto her, recognizing it was evil and unjustified, while entirely ignoring those who loved her.

That she was treated badly is not something to justify or excuse (although really... she wasn't treated very badly). It's bad, for sure. However, it also doesn't excuse using innocent lives as window dressing to your own selfish desperation, particularly when that desperation is at least partially your own fault. Why was she desperate? Why was she broken down? That wasn't all done to her. She did it to herself. I think she recognizes that.

So yes, I understand her self-loathing. But I will not excuse her actions if she was in fact the culprit. I also don't believe she was, so I don't really have any conflict in that respect. There's enough evidence that Beatrice and Yasu are scapegoating themselves to make it pretty clear to me that when push came to shove and her desperation and emotion came to a head, her existence was validated by someone and she could not bring herself to do all the things she wrote herself as being able to do (and then hesitantly, at any rate). I don't think Battler would forgive those actions, but he'd certainly forgive those feelings. Battler had the ability to stop those actions by validating those feelings. Battler lived. Something still happened. Do the math, I'd say.

---

Let's set that aside for a moment though, and ask this:

Assume that you're right. Why would Eva defend and protect this kind of person? She has absolutely no reason to do so. To her, some goddamn lunatic snapped and killed everyone. Yasu is a person she barely even knows. Even if she understands Yasu's reasoning and emotional state (a bit of a stretch, I think, given Eva's complete lack of sympathy for Natsuhi), why hide it from Ange? Why would that truth be so hard to deal with? Why bottle it up? Why keep it from the world?

She loses nothing exposing Yasu's crime. She gains nothing from hiding it; worse, she loses Ange, the daughter she always wanted and the only family she has left. Even if Yasu admitted to her it was about Battler, Eva would surely recognize that it wasn't Battler's fault Yasu overreacted as she did. Even accepting this proposal, and even granting Eva more empathy than she demonstrably shows, Eva's actions make no sense.

There has to be a nexus between Battler, Yasu, and Eva. A point of common ground that all three would be willing to cover for. Eva has no reason to protect Yasu, but she does have reason to protect herself or Battler. Battler might have reason to protect Eva, and definitely has reason to protect Yasu and himself. Yasu has reason to protect Battler, but potentially little reason to protect herself (why should she care?) and no clear reason to protect Eva (again, what's Eva ever done for her?).

Ange wants to believe Eva is the culprit, but the text suggests the opposite was the case. Yasu wants people to believe she is the culprit, but it appears that she's actually covering for someone or hiding something beyond her own involvement given her characterization and Beatrice's turn toward being a sympathetic figure. Battler as the culprit is both mocked in ep7 and ep8 and is covered in the portrayal of Black Battler, who appears to be doing things mostly because that's the role he's been forced into. Given ep8's ending, I have to think all three of them were somehow caught up in something that surprised all of them. Something that Battler and Yasu felt culpable for, but which they didn't directly cause.

Now what could that be?

[jjblue1]

Honestly I think Yasu was represented poorly. To understand Yasu is like playing a guessing game on how was her life and how she reacted to it. It doesn't help her story is filled with subjective narrative that needs to be interpreted, contrasting statements that probably were meant to express her inner confusion but that are often left hanging there unresolved so that one can't say what Yasu decided in the end, informations kept unrevealed, stuffs that seem hard to believe (like her 6 years obsession over a twelve year old or her refusal to do something productive about it), decisions that seem to have no purpose (why killing everyone?) and that we don't even know if she took in the end (did she really kill everyone in the end or just wrote about it?) all mixed up in an evidently complicate psychology that, to be understood, needed to be laid out clearly at least in the end, not just abandoned to speculations from readers especially when the idea is you should be able to justify her and feel sympathy for her while she's suspected to be the culprit of cold blood murdering so many people.

Yasu clearly had multiple issues but in the end we're left to speculate over them. Was her deformity that bothered her or was her infertility or was the fact that she believed Battler would love only a woman with big breasts while George only one that could produce children or was all of the above? Or was the fact that even if she felt female she was actually male only even as a male she couldn't meet the... expected requirements?

Did she planned killing someone or was something more harmless or she planned it but then didn't make it because she backed out or because her plan was hijacked?

It doesn't make things better that, in the end, we don't even know which was her role in Prime. She was likely up on something but it's unlikely in the end she murdered someone as implied by Ep 8 ending and by Eva's action that Renall analyzed so well. Did she murder herself? Or did she merely destroyed her identity? Even this is left up to debate.

So... as far as I'm involved, Yasu had a lot of potential but, in the end, her portray was left too unclear so that to judge her one has to rely on what he speculates over her and while doing this in an ongoing story is fun, now that Umineko has ended honestly I'm not so amused as it seems more a characterization hole than everything else.

[GuestSpeaker]

Well the Ep 2 teaparty at least seems to imply that there is a very big difference between wishing harm on others (as Rosa surely often did, confirmed by the ep 8 manga apparently) and actually seeing it happen. There is also the theme in ep 7 that Yasu can't control whether the game occurs or not. Combined with what Ryu is saying (and Beatrice's "can't be helped" attitude to her public perception in ep 8) it makes me wonder if she wrote the two message bottles before hand, killed herself (either figuratively or literally) quite early in the family conference, and all the fallout built from there. Sher can't control it because she is dead, and if the secret family heir exposes themselves then mysteriously dies/disappears (assumedly after getting some reaction from Battler), imagine the fallout and inheritance battles that might then occur. This could make early Beatrice the anger and pent-up emotions that Yasu felt, and latter beato the guilt at what her actions caused (ep 4 teacparty beato screams depression). Just a thought.

As for mental state, having just begun to study psychiatry recently I can say with full confidence that you can be seriously mentally unstable and still maintain planning functions (though people who are psychotic often don't, but there is not strong evidence to say that Yasu was delusional or hallucinating). Regardless, people who have schizophrenia (the classic but poorly portrayed voices in head) have been known to hurt family and friends and unrelated people, but they don't classically match Yasu. To my limited knowledge, Yasu is much more of a borderline type. Borderline personality disorder means the person is on the border between neruotic (unhealthy mental functioning) and psychotic (altered view of reality). They often have a history of childhood trauma or sexual abuse, and they live in this black and white world where people are either the Best Thing Ever, or scum of the Earth (and can switch). They have been known to test others through shouting insults at them or threatening harm or suicide (as they don't truly believe anyone would stick around) and usually have intense self-loathing (they are afraid of happiness, because they think they don't deserve it and won't ever receive it). They can occasionally develop into psychosis, but I don't think this is the message we are meant to take from Yasu.

I believe that even if Yasu isn't borderline, the issues remain. The reason we are meant to feel sorry for her is that even when she (for ease of use) is surrounded by so much love, she can't see it and dosen't think she deserves it. These people can be impossible to live with, they can be incredibly cruel and violent, but the reason we feel sorry for them is because deep down they are fractured and hurt. They tend to hate themselves more than anyone else, and simply can't deal with that emotion. I think that is what we are meant to feel for Yasu, not sympathetic to her actions, but empathetic to just how broken she must have been inside.

This is supported by the way we were meant to feel towards the whole Mion/Shion thing, and also because in real life this forums anger essentially represents how people respond to these people. Their therapists are usually sadly aware of how damaged they are, while the people who they harm (or who know them ie us) can only be appalled at their actions (and usually rightly so).

Once again not saying Yasu has borderline, just that I think this is how we are meant to approach it.

[Drifloon]

Hm, looking up borderline personality disorder, I think you're probably right. That does seem to fit pretty well.

I think this could also be applicable here. If you look at the "Signs and symptoms" part of it, it's quite striking how well it fits.

[GuestSpeaker]

There is a lot of overlap, and I don't think yasu was designed to be a textbook case, but is just also not that far removed from reality.

[Oroboro]

Speaking of Yasu, for anyone who's interested the "Stupid Goats Seacats Reread Session tumblr liveblog / analysis" is now done with Episode 2.

The google doc with every post for easier reading can be found here.

For anyone who missed it the first time around, the link for episode 1 is here. It's a reread of Umineko by two different people each giving their own insights, with a specific focus on Yasu's perspective. It, imo, does a great job of highlighting a lot of the stuff that was troubling her, and shows just how much of it Ryukushi baked into the story even early on.