Ore no Imouto - Light Novel & Manga Discussion Thread

[Wilshere]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

And I'll shitpost for a second too... I tried to warn everyone... First disc bonus short story; it's kind of hateful to throw that in there and be like "but don't read it until you wait for the 8th Blu-Ray or buy our books!" (N.B. No other short stories have been announced or suggested, just to be clear.)

That aside, personally, I think the story sounds hilarious and should be quite fun.

Kinda disappointed although we shouldve known this,that they wont spoil it just now. I really hope that maybe they could release a short story for the final volume to clear things up.

[Densetsuhakai]

Originally Posted by Ricadan

I'm gonna go ahead and intentionally shitpost just this once: I am mildly disappointed.

I'm not disappointed.It was kinda obvious that it's not going to clear up anything.I mean most of the blu ray buyers wouldn't understand the content of the short story or they would only spoil themselves.Maybe sometime in the future the author will release another short story that will clear up Kirino's and Kyousuke's future,but not right now.

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It's a "problem", but it's also necessary to make the suspense work. Just consider how much huge suspense had been built-up about how the last-novel would end, and the amount of interest in how it all played out. If it had been "written properly" (so to speak), it may be more satisfying in the one sense, but you loose a lot of the related tension. So, while it may be considered "bad writing" on the one hand, I think it's basically a necessary evil within this genre. What's important is whether the hints were there in the earlier parts of the story so that you can follow the trail, and in that regard I think the author was rather skilful, if almost maliciously crafty, in his writing. As I said before, "well played".)

Yes, I don't take issue with the approach itself because most RomComs are also written in such a fashion. I do think, however, that it is possible to craft the story in such a way that suspense remains, but the ending can still be foreseen early on.

This is synonymous to mystery or detective novels. In a classic story of "Whodunnit?", there's multiple villains and murder weapons, each of which start out as being possible. Well-written stories are written in such a way that the final solution not only contains clues that are well-hidden but unidentifiable to the alert reader, but also red herrings that can logically be ruled out before the final reveal. Stories that are less well-written tend to feel like an episode of Scooby Doo, where the gang set a trap and catch the villain, but the viewers usually couldn't have ruled out everyone else until seeing the ending.

Good mystery novels cause the reader to think, "Ah, I missed that one clue that would have invalidated my guess and would have inevitably led to the right conclusion." Less well-written ones leave the impression of, "Well, I made a guess based on all the information given and I was unlucky that it ended up being different."

In the case of OreImo, there are hints in earlier volumes about the ending, but there were also equally valid hints for other routes. As far as I can tell, there wasn't that key piece of evidence that invalidates all the other routes. There wasn't a dog that didn't bark or an assistant with a highly improbable hobby. If the ending had changed, we would all be digging up more clues for that different ending and calling Kirino's hints as red herrings.

Overall, I don't really have a problem with the approach because it is very difficult to write about romance and personal feelings in a conclusive manner without giving away the entire story, especially given the different economic environment of the light novel industry compared to something like Jane Austen's era. My main argument is that there are numerous ways that the final volume could have gone, and that as a result of the author's approach, the clues for the other girls are also valid and should not simply be dismissed as red herrings.

[s0beit]

Originally Posted by Ricadan

I don't know, if the characters have reached their happily ever after and you just tell a story of them being happy, doesn't that just turn it into fanfiction?

The dynamics of their relationship after they start an actual relationship can be interesting, I don't know what point you're trying to make here.

Originally Posted by frivolity

I'm not too sure about the bolded part. If we're talking about extraneous evidence from outside the story (e.g: Kirino being on the cover of most volumes, as well as the rule of first-girl wins), then yes, Kirino would be in the driving seat if she weren't Kyousuke's sister.

However, if we're only looking at evidence from within the story itself, then I would say that Kirino would be even further from contention if they weren't siblings, because there would be much less to differentiate her from the rest of the girls.

She's still be a tsundere handful that the protagonist spices his life up with. Think Haruhi, she is the catalyst for everything exciting that has been happening in his life since the beginning of the work. He bends over backwards for her, pretending to lament it and continuing to do so anyway. Relentlessflame said it a few pages back, but her being the sister is a big minus in the anime love realm, if she wasn't his sister, it really couldn't be more clear, to me, anyway. She's central to the entire story.

Assuming she's just some girl he met like Sakurai, and helped her with her problems from day 1, it would really be simple to me.

[Sakuratsuki]

Originally Posted by Wilshere

Kinda disappointed although we shouldve known this,that they wont spoil it just now. I really hope that maybe they could release a short story for the final volume to clear things up.

Same feelings here.

Thank you relentlessflame you messed up my day

I just woke up and saw the comment nooooooo

EDIT: i have read it on 4-chan. Really Tamaki? i dont f.... care about Tamaki 10 years after or even 40 years after. Just conclude the damn story.

[frivolity]

Nvm, misread.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by frivolity

In the case of OreImo, there are hints in earlier volumes about the ending, but there were also equally valid hints for other routes. As far as I can tell, there wasn't that key piece of evidence that invalidates all the other routes. There wasn't a dog that didn't bark or an assistant with a highly improbable hobby. If the ending had changed, we would all be digging up more clues for that different ending and calling Kirino's hints as red herrings.

Well, the issue is that he had an unfair trump card. I mean, if Kirino had been anyone other than his sister, the story would have been so dead obvious it would have been trivial. She's the titular heroine, she's the center of the story, her behaviour towards the protagonist is more than a little suspect all along, they want to be the most important person in their lives, and on and on and on. But, because they're siblings, all the hints can be misconstrued. So it's not really a fair game. And the author knew he was playing this unfair game, and played it to his advantage the whole way, causing viewers to rule out the most obvious ending because they just assumed the story wouldn't go there.

Edit: I want to be clear, though, that I don't begrudge the author this. If the hints weren't actually there previous volumes and this was just played as a "gotcha", that would be unfair, but that isn't the case. What the author was doing was playing people's own assumptions against them.

[Wilshere]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, the issue is that he had an unfair trump card. I mean, if Kirino had been anyone other than his sister, the story would have been so dead obvious it would have been trivial. She's the titular heroine, she's the center of the story, her behaviour towards the protagonist is more than a little suspect all along, they want to be the most important person in their lives, and on and on and on. But, because they're siblings, all the hints can be misconstrued. So it's not really a fair game. And the author knew he was playing this unfair game, and played it to his advantage the whole way, causing viewers to rule out the most obvious ending because they just assumed the story wouldn't go there.

In other words ''hidden incest story plot''??? It seems they story has been planned from Volume 1 to me.

[Densetsuhakai]

Originally Posted by Wilshere

In other words ''hidden incest story plot''??? It seems they story has been planned from Volume 1 to me.

This.That's the same I'm thinking.It was obvious that Kirino has feelings for Kyousuke since the first Volume.Just Kyousuke was the one who's mind wasn't clear at all till the end of Volume 11/the start of Volume 12.But yeah,there was always a romantic tension between the siblings.It would be more illogical to me,if Kyousuke would have decided to go out with Kuroneko,Ayase or Manami.

[BladeEntity]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, the issue is that he had an unfair trump card. I mean, if Kirino had been anyone other than his sister, the story would have been so dead obvious it would have been trivial. She's the titular heroine, she's the center of the story, her behaviour towards the protagonist is more than a little suspect all along, they want to be the most important person in their lives, and on and on and on. But, because they're siblings, all the hints can be misconstrued. So it's not really a fair game. And the author knew he was playing this unfair game, and played it to his advantage the whole way, causing viewers to rule out the most obvious ending because they just assumed the story wouldn't go there.

Edit: I want to be clear, though, that I don't begrudge the author this. If the hints weren't actually there previous volumes and this was just played as a "gotcha", that would be unfair, but that isn't the case. What the author was doing was playing people's own assumptions against them.

Agreed with you on it being fair game the way the author wrote the narrative, hence why well I would have preferred an alternative, I can't fault him on it being completely unexpected. If you look at it, from a the perspective based on the narrative, I ending was poignant definitive and yet left room for interpretation.

Its definitely well written from that perspective alone. The irony of his well guarded misdirection is that he could have gone any route he wanted without it seeming completely unbelievable despite that he had a plan from the start but followed it through in my opinion.

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, the issue is that he had an unfair trump card. I mean, if Kirino had been anyone other than his sister, the story would have been so dead obvious it would have been trivial. She's the titular heroine, she's the center of the story, her behaviour towards the protagonist is more than a little suspect all along, they want to be the most important person in their lives, and on and on and on. But, because they're siblings, all the hints can be misconstrued. So it's not really a fair game. And the author knew he was playing this unfair game, and played it to his advantage the whole way, causing viewers to rule out the most obvious ending because they just assumed the story wouldn't go there.

Edit: I want to be clear, though, that I don't begrudge the author this. If the hints weren't actually there previous volumes and this was just played as a "gotcha", that would be unfair, but that isn't the case. What the author was doing was playing people's own assumptions against them.

I don't think that's the only issue though. The original discussion is about the status of the red herrings compared to the actual clues and whether the story had been written in such a way that the so-called red herrings had been played up to the extent that they started to trump the actual clues. This issue would still apply even if Kirino had not been Kyousuke's sister.

For one, if Kirino hadn't been siblings with Kyousuke, she wouldn't be the titular character anymore . Without the sibling constraints, there would also be the question of whether Kyousuke truly had romantic feelings for Kirino if he had known her for all his life and never started dating her, but chose to date another girl instead. The way I see it, a non-sister Kirino would have a status similar to Manami's in this story.

[Densetsuhakai]

Originally Posted by frivolity

I don't think that's the only issue though. The original discussion is about the status of the red herrings compared to the actual clues and whether the story had been written in such a way that the so-called red herrings had been played up to the extent that they started to trump the actual clues. This issue would still apply even if Kirino had not been Kyousuke's sister.

For one, if Kirino hadn't been siblings with Kyousuke, she wouldn't be the titular character anymore . Without the sibling constraints, there would also be the question of whether Kyousuke truly had romantic feelings for Kirino if he had known her for all his life and never started dating her, but chose to date another girl instead. The way I see it, a non-sister Kirino would have a status similar to Manami's in this story.

I don't think that's quite right.Didn't Kyousuke said himself that he would be in love with her if she wasn't his sister,because she's so cool and beautiful? (Volume 8 last chapter,I think).

[Wilshere]

Originally Posted by Densetsuhakai

I don't think that's quite right.Didn't Kyousuke said himself that he would be in love with her if she wasn't his sister,because she's so cool and beautiful? (Volume 8 last chapter,I think).

Hmm he did fall in love with her after all lol

[Densetsuhakai]

Originally Posted by Wilshere

Hmm he did fall in love with her after all lol

Haha,yeah that's right.It would be the same if she wasn't his sister.

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by Densetsuhakai

I don't think that's quite right.Didn't Kyousuke said himself that he would be in love with her if she wasn't his sister,because she's so cool and beautiful? (Volume 8 last chapter,I think).

In this case, we're talking about what would have happened if their status as siblings did not exist but the events of the story remained the same. Given that they are siblings, Kyousuke's quote can be interpreted to mean that he was in love with her but was holding back due to being her brother. But if they were not siblings, and Kyousuke says the same thing without changing his behaviour, then the interpretation completely changes.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Wilshere

In other words ''hidden incest story plot''??? It seems they story has been planned from Volume 1 to me.

Well, consider frivolity's point. I always saw the "smoke" in terms of Kirino's feelings all along, but even I suspected that the author had given himself an "easy way out" with Kuroneko because a) Kyousuke already loved her, b) she already accepted Kirino and sacrificed herself for her, c) Kirino will always be Kyousuke's one and only little sister no matter what. So although I totally agree that the Kyousuke x Kirino story is at the center of this work (and Kirino's if route was my favourite of the first PSP game), even I didn't predict this as the most likely ending. And if they had gone the way I supposed, while still affirming and recognizing the importance of the relationship Kyousuke and Kirino have, I think a lot of people would have said that the story wrapped itself up in a suitable (if predictable/non-original) way.

In retrospect it's crystal clear that this didn't account for everything that the current ending accounts for in terms of the elements being referenced... but we wouldn't know what we were missing.

Originally Posted by frivolity

For one, if Kirino hadn't been siblings with Kyousuke, she wouldn't be the titular character anymore . Without the sibling constraints, there would also be the question of whether Kyousuke truly had romantic feelings for Kirino if he had known her for all his life and never started dating her, but chose to date another girl instead. The way I see it, a non-sister Kirino would have a status similar to Manami's in this story.

Nah, there are twists that can be applied that are more subtle than that. For example, she could be an adopted sibling or a sibling through re-marriage. Or, otherwise, assume that the title would change. As long as she's still at the center of the narrative, and the story revolved around rekindling a broken relationship through private life counselling about a shared secret, it would be clear (at least, to the degree that it ever is) that the destination for the couple was love and not just "friendship".

[Wilshere]

Apparently what he said to Ayase when she and Kirino did not make up was never a lie tho. Funny thing that he will shout again those words (this time he really means it) 'I love my little sister' in the same park I assume.

[seangel92]

Originally Posted by s0beit

Still, I agree with the horserace stuff. If they could only remove some of that from every romcom and replace it with them being in a relationship for a while, that would be super. I love seeing budding relationships.

One word: Clannad.

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Nah, there are twists that can be applied that are more subtle than that. For example, she could be an adopted sibling or a sibling through re-marriage. Or, otherwise, assume that the title would change. As long as she's still at the center of the narrative, and the story revolved around rekindling a broken relationship through private life counselling about a shared secret, it would be clear (at least, to the degree that it ever is) that the destination for the couple was love and not just "friendship".

Heh, or maybe have Kirino as a friend that calls Kyousuke her brother for no apparent reason. Reminds me of a visual novel whose premise is a protagonist with three women whom he refers to as mother ...

[s0beit]

Originally Posted by frivolity

For one, if Kirino hadn't been siblings with Kyousuke, she wouldn't be the titular character anymore .

If you're going to follow that line of reasoning, he wouldn't have met anyone in the story, except, maybe Manami. What fun.

Originally Posted by frivolity

Without the sibling constraints, there would also be the question of whether Kyousuke truly had romantic feelings for Kirino if he had known her for all his life and never started dating her, but chose to date another girl instead. The way I see it, a non-sister Kirino would have a status similar to Manami's in this story.

Once again, not comparable. You're working off of faulty premises.
She is already the main character. Sure, if in your version of the story she is removed as a main character... then, yeah, I guess. That's not what we're talking about here, though. You might as well say the story would have been vastly different if it was about an 8.0 earthquake. Indeed, but it bears little relevance to the conversation.

Same central role, same consultations, just different circumstances = Same outcome, but far more obvious.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by seangel92

One word: Clannad.

Seen it, obviously.