Isekai gripes

[erneiz_hyde]

Try looking at Arcadia if it's still operational, though the total bulk of what once existed are mostly gone according to the author. The essay author said one of his motives of writing this is to leave a record oh what have been since he couldn't find any, anywhere in the internet.
True to his writer soul, "if there isn't one I will just write it myself" and hoped that maybe some of the other old-guards would notice and motivate them to leave behind a record of their own (which he apparently succeeded, if you read chapter 10 of the essay).
20 years ago I was still just finishing elementary or entering junior high, and didn't know how to browse the internet and most importantly I haven't studied any Japanese so I wouldn't have known any of this stuff anyway.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Arcadia as in mai-net.net? If so, the repo is still up. Most of the Kanon stuff are gone though

[erneiz_hyde]

I don't know, maybe? I only first heard about Arcadia from the essay (the site apparently was also called 理想郷 or　楽園).

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Arcadia as in mai-net.net? If so, the repo is still up. Most of the Kanon stuff are gone though

Yes, that place.

[The Green One]

My gripes about Isekai are people who bitch about how awful it is when they choose to watch it anyway for some reason. If you hate the genre so much don't watch it stupid!

(Before you break out the torches and pitchforks that was not meant to be serious, it's a joke so chill ok? Everyone has their own reasons for what they do.)

Serious answer to the thread, the inevitable chainsaw that anime adaptions of Isekai tend to suffer. It really hurts a show when time constraints force trimming of material.

[BWTraveller]

Beyond the simple issue of people who seem almost to watch for the specific purpose of complaining about how "cliché" or "uninspired" or otherwise "awful" it is, and that's something that happens for light novel adaptations in general, it'd just be nice to have less of people shouting "it's isekai garbage" before something's even aired. Had less so far coming up to the winter season, so hopefully it's getting better. I don't care what type of story it is, judgments and dismissals ought to be saved until after one has at least seen some of the actual content. There's really no telling until then. A story you expect to be crap could be a masterpiece that completely redeems the genre in your eyes. Or a story you think will be good could bore you to the point you fall into a comatose stupor or fill you with so much rage you start invoking your personal God(s) to smite them. But until you actually consume the product you honestly cannot know for sure.

[ArrowSmith]

The biggest problem is bland MC-kun.

[endarion88]

my biggest problems with isekai is that 99% of the cases is always a "videogame" like world and the MC always have this "cheat skill" to give him an easy life

i'm so fed up with this that now i just think this genre is writted by people that aren't good in life and want to live in a literaly easy mode world were everything is handed down to them

like really... i'm at the point that if i read "cheat skill" in manga title i automaticaly label it as trash

i'm more or less fine with it when these 2 bull**** aren't there

[BWTraveller]

I've been thinking about things for a while, and concerning isekai, I think you could divide it into three subtypes:
1: The other world as paradise
2: The other world as prison
3: The hero as instigator of change

The third is probably the least common. Best example I can think of is Bookworm. It basically takes advantage of an "other world" to create a setting where certain technologies, philosophies, tactics or other ideas are absent and then use that setting to demonstrate the revolutionizing impact of said ideas.
The second has become more popular as of late, with the situation the hero experiences being extremely unpleasant; people hate him, he's not near strong enough, perhaps he has reasons to desperately want to return, but in any case the world is a horrible prison from which he needs to escape.
The third is the most common, as a form of wish-fulfilling escapism where the world is tailor-made for the hero to attain glory. Skills, values and characteristics that were commonplace or worthless in this world are incredibly rare and/or super-useful there. New powers are often gained in the process that give a huge boost to the hero's abilities. Often you even see convenient things like the legalization of polygyny so the man can have all the girls in his harem legally. It's often game-based since many who like these stories have some experience in gaming and perceived skills, and on top of that the game world has worked for decades to perfect systems that facilitate growth for all players. Unfortunately, not only is this the most lacking in conflict as a big point is maintaining the fantasy of a paradise where you'll obtain glory you couldn't here, but it's been done so many times that it becomes very difficult to stand out. As a result, you wind up either having to be a brilliant writer who can make something incredible or coming up with a crazy gimmick in order to make your story stand out. This isn't to say that I dislike this subset. I generally prefer at last some degree of paradise in the LNs I read. But it's understandable that it can begin to get old.

And of course, while you may be able to divide a lot into one of these three subtypes, there's almost always some overlap, with for instance a hero experiencing both a degree of "paradise" with fame and glory and women as well as a bit of "prison" with horrors he'd never experience at home and maybe precious things left behind. In general, I'd say the third type is the most difficult to pull off but has the most potential for depth, while the first is most likely to be consumed by the broadest range of audiences as long as the author has what it takes to make at least SOMETHING in it worth the read.

[0cean]

I don't think the one I'm reading now, Reverend Insanity, falls in either of these categories. And checking some other Isekai shows, they don't fit either. Think Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari, Monster Rancher, Zero no Tsukaima, Mondaiji-tachi, Hataraku Maou-sama, Outbreak Company, Gate, Overlord, ...

[Kanon]

I'd say Gate fits the third and Overlord the first. I haven't watched the others except Hataraku Maou-sama and it's interesting you mention it. Are shows where people from another world get transported to our world considered Isekai?

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by 0cean

I don't think the one I'm reading now, Reverend Insanity, falls in either of these categories. And checking some other Isekai shows, they don't fit either. Think Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari, Monster Rancher, Zero no Tsukaima, Mondaiji-tachi, Hataraku Maou-sama, Outbreak Company, Gate, Overlord, ...

I suppose I should have said "generally you can divide it into three types". It's generally impossible to create a classification system that covers all fiction; it's even rare to find one that frequently has works that fit perfectly into a single class. However, frequently these seem to be the starting points. Not sure with those stories where someone is transferred here from another world, like Part-Timer. War on Geminar is, in my opinion, largely a twist on the first: he's a hero and a star from day one, otherworlders generally are this by nature; it's just that, being a Masaki, he was already crazy powerful and destined to have an insane harem. Tsukaima, I'd say, probably moved from slight prison vibes to a definite paradise; he's a destined hero with great powers and allies with even greater powers, surrounded by women who adore him despite the fact that he was originally just an average everyday otaku, and ultimately he falls in love and lives happily ever after.

Outbreak Company is, in my opinion, very much a mix of paradise and instigator of change. His knowledge and passion for otaku culture, in this world, made him a nobody who couldn't even get his childhood friend to feel uneasy or unhappy as she crushed his heart. In the new world, it won him a powerful position and impressed everyone around him. And at the same time, he brought all sorts of ideas to this world that were so foreign the auto-translate rings couldn't even do their job. He changed the education system, broke down barriers, and in many ways revolutionized the world. It's much more light-hearted and not as deep as say Bookworm, but it still follows that general premise of bringing foreign knowledge that fundamentally changes the world.

One thing to consider is that I was talking mainly about the base premise. Every story's going to be different in a broad range of ways, but a lot of them seem to use those three foundations to varied extents. And yeah, a whole lot of them try hard to do the first one, resulting in even more overlap and increasing the desperation to make an item "different" from the rest with weird gimmicks. The most unfortunate thing about aiming for the first is that a focus on making the hero a hero and making things ultimately go awesome for him are not that conducive to character development, resulting in those complaints about "lack of personality".

Really, I think the big thing is looking at why one chose to make something an Isekai. If they did it because they have a passion for the style, it could be good. If they did because they have a story for which such a setting would be a great fit and be really useful in achieving the plot they desired, it could be real good. If they did it because right now that's the thing and they think it'll boost sales, there could be problems.

[0cean]

People have copied popular works since time immemorial. Just remember all the Evangelion knock-offs from the late 1990s and early 2000s. If it's a knock-off, chances are it's going to suck, no matter what it was trying to imitate. It's just the fate of the things that are really good to get copied. Sometimes this surprisingly works, often, however, it does not. No reason to stop trying. Failure is the mother of success.

Now the thing with Isekai is that it is not anchored around one work like Evangelion and thus fated to disappear after a while. It's a cheap ingredient that will easily boost sales - like fanservice. Only with fanservice everyone has kind of resigned themselves to it being a thing that won't ever go away. Every year there will be a couple of anime that have nothing to offer except for fanservice. I'm guessing Isekai will have a similar fate.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Are shows where people from another world get transported to our world considered Isekai?

Isekai just entails moving between worlds. Starting point and destination don't matter. It doesn't even have to be a world that different. The Haruhi movie is Isekai. So is Gargantia, despite technically taking place in the same universe.


Going back to the proposed categorization, I don't feel that these are exclusive to the Isekai genre, if you apply them so broadly. If Outbreak Company can be counted as instigator of change because of the cultural exchange every other anime that deals with otaku culture meeting and interacting with people outside that culture would fit the bill just as well. That kind of story isn't exclusive to the Isekai setting. So if it counts, it makes no sense to have this category as a sub-category of Isekai since it also works to describe works that aren't Isekai.

Same thing with Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari. If it counts as paradise, than the original Tenchi anime would have to, as well. Thus making it so the categorization isn't exclusive to Isekai anymore.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by 0cean

People have copied popular works since time immemorial. Just remember all the Evangelion knock-offs from the late 1990s and early 2000s. If it's a knock-off, chances are it's going to suck, no matter what it was trying to imitate. It's just the fate of the things that are really good to get copied. Sometimes this surprisingly works, often, however, it does not. No reason to stop trying. Failure is the mother of success.

Now the thing with Isekai is that it is not anchored around one work like Evangelion and thus fated to disappear after a while. It's a cheap ingredient that will easily boost sales - like fanservice. Only with fanservice everyone has kind of resigned themselves to it being a thing that won't ever go away. Every year there will be a couple of anime that have nothing to offer except for fanservice. I'm guessing Isekai will have a similar fate.



Isekai just entails moving between worlds. Starting point and destination don't matter. It doesn't even have to be a world that different. The Haruhi movie is Isekai. So is Gargantia, despite technically taking place in the same universe.


Going back to the proposed categorization, I don't feel that these are exclusive to the Isekai genre, if you apply them so broadly. If Outbreak Company can be counted as instigator of change because of the cultural exchange every other anime that deals with otaku culture meeting and interacting with people outside that culture would fit the bill just as well. That kind of story isn't exclusive to the Isekai setting. So if it counts, it makes no sense to have this category as a sub-category of Isekai since it also works to describe works that aren't Isekai.

Same thing with Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari. If it counts as paradise, than the original Tenchi anime would have to, as well. Thus making it so the categorization isn't exclusive to Isekai anymore.

I seriously wasn't trying to create a subgenre to the subgenre or anything like that, just a particular way to look at the intent and basic core of the plot. Bookworm is largely about a girl who, immediately after obtaining paradise, finds herself in her idea of hell, but then decides that she's going to change the world to make her dreams come true, and then deals with both her struggles and the impact her efforts have on the world. Shield Hero is in a sense about a guy who thought he was in a typical escapist fantasy only to realize that everyone hates him, he's supposed to be the devil incarnate, and his powers suck, and then moves from there to show his desperate struggle to survive and his comrades' struggles to help him overcome the bitterness and trauma. Outbreak Company is about a guy whose strengths are seen as worthless and whose interests make him an outcast, who finds himself in a place where he's seen as a teacher bringing amazing ideas and stories, where he's able to change the world, and where he has to deal with the consequences of such changes.

And yeah, this fits with other works as well. Especially stories where the hero suddenly finds out that his world is far different from the common-sense reality he thought he knew, like Tenchi or DxD. These stories have a lot in common with isekai anyway, it's just instead of going to another world they find out their world is just the "starter town" effectively and thus all the issues of the "other world" come straight to him. If anything isekai's just a bit more direct about the point of completely changing the hero's environment.

But one point I had was that NO, isekai is not necessarily a "cheap ingredient to boost sales". Yes, often it is. But my point was there are a variety of ways people approach it. Sometimes yes, the author either just said "I want to write an isekai, that'll probably sell" and then comes up with a gimmick to make it unique. Sometimes the author instead just sees it as a convenient way to make the character more "relatable" or simplify exposition by presenting it through the eyes of someone who's just as in-the-dark as us and sees things from a similar perspective. And sometimes the author has an idea for a story in which creating such a setting, where the hero is taken completely out of into a place from which there is no clear return and common sense is entirely different, is fitting and benefits the plot itself. The "cheap ingredient" side is most common in the first of the three factors I mentioned, where you're aiming for nothing more than wish fulfillment and guaranteed heroism; it's easier to have things go the hero's way if the world is tailor-made for that purpose, but that's just about it. On the other hand demonstrating the impact of technology or ideas is quite well facilitated by the setting of a person from a place that has these things bringing them to a place that has never heard of them; and while there are other paths to the same goal, a parallel universe with no clear return path is definitely a very effective way to trap a person or group of people in an unpleasant or hellish situation.

[Haak]

Huh...

I don't think I've ever heard Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet described as an isekai but now that I think about it, it certainly does act as a classical version of one, even if may not be one literally.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Haak

Huh...

I don't think I've ever heard Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet described as an isekai but now that I think about it, it certainly does act as a classical version of one, even if may not be one literally.

Planet of the Apes is isekai then. My mind is blown.

[BWTraveller]

It all depends on how strict your definition is. If "isekai" is limited to your stereotype of a person being transported to a parallel universe where things work different, usually "magically", then even SAO doesn't qualify. On the other hand, if you include anything in which the hero is shifted to a "world" that he doesn't know then Futurama is isekai, as is Dr. Stone, Gargantua and a range of others.

[Haak]

For the record, I don't really think Gargantia is a an isekai for the same reason I wouldn't consider Astra Lost in Space an isekai: Its interstellar travel that's part of the setting. In my opinion the term "another world" is actually a misnomer because a more accurate description would be "another universe", but since those stories never leave the confines of a world it doesn't matter.

I was just saying that Gargantia kinda acted like a classical isekai in a "coming of age" sense and I found that perspective curious.

[0cean]

Isekai literally means "other world", though. Not "other universe". Technically merely moving from earth to a different planet already can qualify as isekai. Time travelling in that sense is a subset of isekai. You could also have an isekai story where the hero finds out at the end that he only moved to another country on earth that happened to be hidden and full of fantasy creatures. Just like there are fantasy stories, where the heroes find out at the end that they are actually in a far future of a sci-fi world where technology evolved to be indistinguishable from magic and now everything just looks like fantasy, despite all the different races being genetically engineered etc.

A genre doesn't describe the reality of things within the world, but how it plays out. That's why SAO is isekai, despite the thing just being a game within the real world. That's why filing Gargantia under isekai isn't wrong.

Other anime that people don't usually think of as isekai are Haibane Renmei and Angel Beats.

[Haak]

Well I can't say I agree with such a loose definition but for what it's worth Now and Then, Here and There is generally regarded as a deconstruction of the portal fantasy genre when it is actually technically just time travel so there is that.

But one thing I do feel the need to point out is that Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet certainly contrasts with a lot of inane isekai's in the fact that it is a rare case of the main character coming from a background of poor values having to adapt to the other world because it actually has better values in most respects. Far too often I just see trite isekai where the main character gets to be portrayed as some enlightened hero purely by virtue of being a 21st Century Everyman and usually done in such a cheap and lazy manner. It almost invariably takes the form of fighting some corrupt church and/or fighting slavery (whilst ironically partaking in it). At least Ascendance of a Bookworm and Dr Stone (if that counts) get points for showing a little more creativity and research, but you can tell with most the other isekai out there that they're written by people whose life experiences clearly don't extend much further than their own bedroom. And I suppose there is GATE but that was a bit too GLORIOUS YAMATO DAMASHII for my tastes...

One thing I liked about Outbreak Company was that whilst the main character did have moments of imparting superior 21st century values to the world he travelled to, there were also occasions where his attempts went horribly awry and even moments where he had to protect that world from the machinations of his own supposedly superior society. And this was specifically an isekai about a guy who is as close to the "21st Century Everyman" trope that you could possibly get.