2008-05-13, 23:17 | Link #1122 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
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I'm not so certain of that - after all, suzaku is very stubborn about doing things "his" way, and since he already showed that he didn't approved of Zero's ways, there's very little chance that he'd have joined, so had Lelouch shown his face to Suzaku back then, he'd most likely have ended up placing himself into a bad situation (Suzaku would've known who he were and might've ended up arresting him a lot earlier then).
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2008-05-13, 23:18 | Link #1123 | |
神聖カルル帝国の 皇帝
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Korea
Age: 37
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We can use the Japanese occupation of Korea to compare. While the Korean Resistence mainly focused on attacking only the military or high officials, the JLF and other rebels in CG are more like the Palestinians, using attacks on civilians as well as on the government/military. That's where we see a major: When you have your own people using methods of mass murders against enemies and friends alike, it's better to stop the terrorists before they do more harm than good. |
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2008-05-13, 23:19 | Link #1124 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Age: 32
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I think the situation would be more like one of your friends pissed off a powerful organazation and is now trying to kill your family and friends, but would lose interest if your friend died. Would you shoot your friend to save your family and other friends?
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2008-05-13, 23:20 | Link #1126 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Although I guess it wasn't moral outrage on your part, so there isn't much left to discuss here. Quote:
And really, I very much challenge the idea of Suzaku being a poorly written character. Beyond his contrasts and parallels with Lelouch, there are also quite a few nuances to Suzaku which are all his own. I've already noted the nuances in his personality as a child, where Suzaku was not Lelouch's equal as Suzaku admired his drive for independance and perseverance through tremendous tragedy. Suzaku also seems to see himself as somebody who has already walked Lelouch's path and knows what lays at the ends of it, which shows that he can understand Lelouch's way of thinking with some degree of certainty. His relationship with Euphemia also highlighted his previous hatred for himself and his belief that he was just not good enough, hammered into him from his childhood and reinforced by his failure to protect the Japanese people during the war. As for his ideals, the two you highlighted are a bit of a misrepresentation. Suzaku's whole 'using the wrong means is worthless' spiel is really just a somewhat vague expression of his belief that 'Rules must be followed'. This is just a reflection of his belief that no human is so perfect that they are never wrong, so it is best to follow conventions because it is safe (maybe a cowardly principle, but you can see where he's coming from when the one time he acted above the rules set up for him as a child was when he killed his father and caused the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, can't you?). It's not about whether the lives lost are worth it or anything, it's actually just about the chances of making a mistake. Suzaku's other ideal, which you seem to be interpreting as 'violence is wrong', is actually limited to 'hurting innocents is wrong', same thing as Lelouch. For Suzaku though, rather than defining the 'innocent' as those who are weak, he considers them to be those who follow the rules. As such, although he's a nice enough guy to not want to kill in general, the only ones he feels it is his moral imperative to spare are those who aren't fighting against him. Thinking about it that way, there aren't really too many contradictions at all, now are there? Last edited by Sol Falling; 2008-05-13 at 23:34. |
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2008-05-13, 23:24 | Link #1127 |
Kalulu YES WE CAN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CALIFORNIA!!
Age: 37
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Suzaku resolve and ideas are very grey so are some of Lelouch methods. Thats not what bother's me about him. The problem is that he sometimes blindly obeys orders. his fight with the EU he would kill people but when it come to massacre he would not take part of it but neither would he stop it. I can not stand a person that says he has the moral high ground then not follow through with his per say morals. You may not be pulling the trigger but the people you work for are. Your hands are just as bloody. yet he ignores this. I would at least make me somewhat understand him better if he at least felt some anguish instead he runs away from facing his problems.
So far what we have learn of Suzaku is that he is more of the same. He strives to the knight of one but what he doesn't take into account is that will the emperor even let him becomethe knight of one? He still has somewhat of a naive sense of Justice and thinking what he is doing is right. I rather watch LULU at least anguish what he has done rather than a person who runs away from his problems. Not saying what lulu doing is right but at least he is better to relate to. I believe the writers are portraying suzaku as such. One hint is that the knightmare he is riding is the Lancelot. The most hated knight of the round. Edit: the only part of Suzaku i like is that he is so hate able! come on ever series needs one of those. |
2008-05-13, 23:25 | Link #1128 | ||
神聖カルル帝国の 皇帝
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Korea
Age: 37
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2. Is the organization indiscriminatingly trying to kill my family and friends? Quote:
Unfortuately, I'm not in a position of power yet, nor do I have some superpower like the Geass, nor do I have enough influence to be a cool observer. |
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2008-05-13, 23:26 | Link #1129 | |
Pat:TAISAAAAA!
Join Date: Dec 2005
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as for violent pacifist that reminds me of gundam wing.
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2008-05-13, 23:27 | Link #1130 | |
what Yagi said
Join Date: Mar 2008
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The Japanese civilians, Suzaku's people, love the Black Knights. The Britannian civilians fear the Black Knights, but that is mostly because the Britannian government has named them terrorists and enemies of the state moreso than any large killings of Britannian civilians. Many Britannian civilians are actually intrigued by the Black Knights. |
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2008-05-13, 23:30 | Link #1132 | |
神聖カルル帝国の 皇帝
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Korea
Age: 37
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As for OoBK, Britannia never went into direct conflict with them until the SAR fiasco, although OoBK was "helping" JLF and other such organizations. The two even worked together during the Kyushu battle. |
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2008-05-13, 23:38 | Link #1133 | ||
what Yagi said
Join Date: Mar 2008
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I'm not really saying that Suzaku is wrong. I am saying that the justifications given by Suzaku for his actions do not justify what he is doing. That means either: A) Suzaku is lying about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action). or B) Suzaku is retarded and ignorant and cannot rationalize his thoughts. or C) It's just poor work done by the writing staff and swept under the rug and just shrugged off. or D) Suzaku is schizophrenic. |
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2008-05-13, 23:43 | Link #1134 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I'm sorry to have to cut this discussion short but....I need sleep now. 1AM @_@ Maybe we can ponder about this some other time |
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2008-05-13, 23:43 | Link #1135 | |
Kalulu YES WE CAN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CALIFORNIA!!
Age: 37
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2008-05-13, 23:47 | Link #1136 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Perhaps we should engage in finding a statement that doesn't allow any instances of personal opinion/values before we go on and discuss about Suzaku |
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2008-05-13, 23:47 | Link #1137 | |
神聖カルル帝国の 皇帝
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Korea
Age: 37
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I chose E) It's better to work with a power that isn't cruel enough to completely crush his people than it is to work with a group that attempts to do a futile war against the power while causing many civilian deathes. |
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2008-05-13, 23:54 | Link #1138 | |
性転換 団長
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He murdered his father under circumstances that have yet to be revealed, and he spent the greater part of his life afterward trying to justify that act. In the process, Suzaku screws many of Lelouch's plans, which of course did not sit well with those who support the rebellion in the audience. This is where most Suzaku hate begins and ends. Then he found his pink haired princess, and decided to live his life for her. (I hate how corny this development was, but that's irrelevant.) Then he lost his pink haired princess, and discovered that he has been fighting a war of ideals against his former best friend. (This is where I actually began to respect Suzaku, because he threw away those useless rose tinted glasses from which he had been viewing the world.) Then we reach R2, where Suzaku hate returned for reasons including screwing with Lelouch's plans again, and taking Nunnally away from Lelouch. ------- I miss anything?
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2008-05-13, 23:56 | Link #1139 |
what Yagi said
Join Date: Mar 2008
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So, using your analogy from before in the case of Korean Occupation, Suzaku would be like one of the many Koreans who sold out their Korean brethren to the Japanese, and then worked for the Japanese while they were out trying to conquer and oppress other lands just like Korea? (That's a very bad run on sentence. Sorry, I'm tired.)
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2008-05-13, 23:58 | Link #1140 | |
神聖カルル帝国の 皇帝
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Korea
Age: 37
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For all I can see, Area 11 is the Indian Crown Colony. |
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