Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Akiyoshi]

And about the time when the Wolkenritter were finally exposed and fleshed out as characters xD

Okay i still have my hopes reasonably up for Curren's upcoming faily party. Hope it won't end up in dissapointment o_o

[Keroko]

Well, you know what they say about hope being the first step on the road to disappointment...

I'm just keeping my wait and see approach here. I was pleasantly surprised by the last couple of translated chapters, so it seems to pay off.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Well, you know what they say about hope being the first step on the road to disappointment...

I'm just keeping my wait and see approach here. I was pleasantly surprised by the last couple of translated chapters, so it seems to pay off.

Well at leas some are having a good time. To be fair Cypha and Signum's fight willl be nice, if short.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

As people have said, the Hucks are just a bit darker than what has come before. Actually, given that it is implied that the Wolkenritter and the Cyborgs have killed before (and in the latter case, enjoyed it), that makes them no different than the Hucks.

Similar? yes, the same? don't think so, but let's elaborate...

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The Hucks believe that, because they are infected and thus hated, they have to survive as a family together. They are willing to kill to survive, just like any other human is.

Signum wasn't a necessary killing xDU The reassuring stab on the guts wasn't called for anything xDU Fine, i buy they need to kill but they clearly have methods to avoid such needs most of the time (that even was Fortis main sale point to bribe Tohma into joining them xDU), they indeed believe they have no chance of redemption to the point they flat out rejected such chance even after having the offer plasted onto their faces.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It's in our nature, we want to continue living, and most of us will kill to ensure that happens. I would. You would. A lifetime of that is going to warp anyone.

It depends, for instance, i would rather die than killing my precious niece who i really love and get along with. I can't know for sure but i think i'll be toasted during a zombie apocalypse because i simply can't get myself to shoot my zombified beloved ones in the head. Call me weak if you want but i simply don't have the guts for that ToT

Kudos to Curren and her family for having such survival instincs but doesn't mean they're the same as the Wolks and the Cyborg, the Wolkenritter lived their lives in eternal guilt over their actions and immediately stopped at the first cahnce they had to do so. The Hucks keeps on rejecting help selfishly encased on the stubborn idea they're unsalvageable. The Cyborgs (the younger ones at least) are yet another case in that they didn't have full concepts of morale, or what's good and bad, the older ones follow Jail with undying loyalty seeing him as their creator.

Of all the evildoers in the Nanohaverse the Huckebein family is probably the one with the most freedom and will on their actions. Their freudian excuse is there but it's also weaker to justify some of their desicions. Redemption is possible but i really expect something different this time, they won't surrender to "kindness" as easily as their predecesors xDU

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Of the cyborgs, Dieci was the only one to show any kind of remorse prior to being captured. Wendi? Nove? They did kill, and were happy to do it again. The only difference between the cyborgs and the Hucks, is that the Hucks have been at it longer.

Interesting you mentioned Nove of all people. She seems to be on of the most affected by Jail's twisted brand of moral education, she's caring and protective of those she views as family but utterly agressive to eveyrone else. She wasn't happy nor seemed to enjoy killing people, she was so fragile Teana was able to get to her tender heart almost by words alone. None of the Huckebein members seems to be that unstable, fragile and needed of affection.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Look, Aki, you have your own idea of how this will turn out. Fine. That's acceptable. We don't agree, but it is your own opinion. Now you have to recognize what we're saying about the Hucks and how at least some of them are going to get redeemed and change sides, and to understand *why* that will happen, even if you don't agree.

Fair enough, i'm not discussing the Hucks becoming good guys, i'm discussing why that will make poor sense right now. They simple aren't fit for the standard "good guy treatement" at the moment, they need a way not to see the evil in their actions, because they already know and embraced that, but a way to understand why they can live a better live than the one they choosed.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And you also have to realize that the manga doesn't whitewash things as much as the anime does. That is the only real difference between the Hucks and the Cyborgs/Wolkenritter and body counts.

For the things expalined above i can't buy the Huckebein are repainted Wolkenritter/Cyborgs. Heck, even the Cyborgs and The Wolkenritter are widely different from each other xDU

[bhl88]

Aki, don't close this one too within a week.

[Kurohane]

@Aki, no one said the Huckkebein were the exact same as the Wolkenritter and numbers. Also, you kept saying they are rejecting help. Who is offering them help? SS6 views them as a criminal organization, and want to apprehend them by whatever's necessary. Thoma is working with them right now.

[Akiyoshi]

Fate did the offer, Signum (albeit not in the nicest of ways, i admit) did the same ...twice. Hayate and the control bridge of the Wolfram did it as well.

Patience is something Hayate can't afford after her first offering were ignored and the Hucks attmept to endanger many innocent lives. In that sense, she's on Lindy's role right now, even if she would like to cut some slack and be nicer to the Hucks she have the responsabilities of a commander now and her utmost priority is to prevent the Hucks from endagering more lives, after that make them stop further commiting crimes and THEN she can be all sugar and smiles if she wants.

Originally Posted by bhl88

Aki, don't close this one too within a week.

I don't think that will be the case here if we mantain our focus on discussing on-topic matters and refrain from getting personal. As Kaijo said, we all have our own opinnion and i'm perfectly okay with that. I give my reasons and supposrt material (if any) and i expect the same when someone gives a counter-argument xD

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Signum wasn't a necessary killing xDU The reassuring stab on the guts wasn't called for anything xDU Fine, i buy they need to kill but they clearly have methods to avoid such needs most of the time (that even was Fortis main sale point to bribe Tohma into joining them xDU), they indeed believe they have no chance of redemption to the point they flat out rejected such chance even after having the offer plasted onto their faces.

Which makes sense. From the Huck's perspective, trusting other people probably hasn't gone too well. Most people are resistant to change naturally, so that explains why they would prefer to continue as is, rather than trust outsiders. It might just be Thoma who gets them to see that, because he's part of both worlds.

It depends, for instance, i would rather die than killing my precious niece who i really love and get along with. I can't know for sure but i think i'll be toasted during a zombie apocalypse because i simply can't get myself to shoot my zombified beloved ones in the head. Call me weak if you want but i simply don't have the guts for that ToT

I won't debate your point. But I will caution you to be careful about what you think you'd be capable of, when put in a situation. You might be surprised. It is why I have empathy for some people like the Hucks, the Wolkenritter, and the cyborgs. Because I know that life can twist anyone into being distrusting, and taking extreme and ugly actions.

Kudos to Curren and her family for having such survival instincs but doesn't mean they're the same as the Wolks and the Cyborg, the Wolkenritter lived their lives in eternal guilt over their actions and immediately stopped at the first cahnce they had to do so. The Hucks keeps on rejecting help selfishly encased on the stubborn idea they're unsalvageable. The Cyborgs (the younger ones at least) are yet another case in that they didn't have full concepts of morale, or what's good and bad, the older ones follow Jail with undying loyalty seeing him as their creator.

The Wolks didn't stop at the first chance they had. Despite Nanoha trying to talk to them several times, the Wolks only stopped when it was quite obvious that draining cores would no longer work, ie, when Hayate recreated them.

Of all the evildoers in the Nanohaverse the Huckebein family is probably the one with the most freedom and will on their actions. Their freudian excuse is there but it's also weaker to justify some of their desicions. Redemption is possible but i really expect something different this time, they won't surrender to "kindness" as easily as their predecesors xDU

Fate didn't surrender, she had to be captured. The Wolks didn't surrender until after they were "killed" and that was probably more due to the fact that Hayate now knew what they had been up to. The cyborgs didn't surrender; they needed to be knocked out and captured. Hell, Deed needed a double tap to stay down!

Interesting you mentioned Nove of all people. She seems to be on of the most affected by Jail's twisted brand of moral education, she's caring and protective of those she views as family but utterly agressive to eveyrone else. She wasn't happy nor seemed to enjoy killing people, she was so fragile Teana was able to get to her tender heart almost by words alone. None of the Huckebein members seems to be that unstable, fragile and needed of affection.

I would guess it is there under the surface of more than a few. At the right moment, just like Vita, they'll begin to crack and showcase the hurt they've been through in the past. I'm only surprised we haven't gotten more backstory on the Hucks, but I gather it is still coming. Perhaps when Thoma gets closer to them again, they might start explaining as a way to tell him why they can't trust anyone except their own family.

Fair enough, i'm not discussing the Hucks becoming good guys, i'm discussing why that will make poor sense right now. They simple aren't fit for the standard "good guy treatement" at the moment, they need a way not to see the evil in their actions, because they already know and embraced that, but a way to understand why they can live a better live than the one they choosed.

If you go by the theory that they have been hurt in the past by trusting people, only to have that trust betrayed, then you can extrapolate that it will take Thoma trying getting through to them to make them believe it. And that ain;t gonna happen unless he keeps trying.

For the things expalined above i can't buy the Huckebein are repainted Wolkenritter/Cyborgs. Heck, even the Cyborgs and The Wolkenritter are widely different from each other xDU

Differences, yes. Then again, not so different. The Wolks were much like robotic killers in the past, doing the only thing they knew how to do. the cyborgs are much like robotic killers (especially Otto, Deed, Tre, and Sette). It wasn't until Hayate showed them better, that the Wolks changed. It wasn't until Teana, Subaru, and Ginga, that the Cyborgs began to change.

And it won't be until Thoma, that the Hucks begin to change.

"Even a weapon can learn to love and laugh kindly" can become "Even a poison that will destroy the world, can learn to laugh and live kindly."

...kinda.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Fate did the offer, Signum (albeit not in the nicest of ways, i admit) did the same ...twice. Hayate and the control bridge of the Wolfram did it as well.

Patience is something Hayate can't afford after her first offering were ignored and the Hucks attmept to endanger many innocent lives. In that sense, she's on Lindy's role right now, even if she would like to cut some slack and be nicer to the Hucks she have the responsabilities of a commander now and her utmost priority is to prevent the Hucks from endagering more lives, after that make them stop further commiting crimes and THEN she can be all sugar and smiles if she wants.

That situation with Deville: Deville wanted Fate to move aside to avoid needless violence. She refused to back down and engaged him.

Signum with Cypha: She told Cypha to remain still and disarm for apprehension or it will be done by force on their first encounter. I've only seen a raw for the second encounter, and can't make out what they say.

Hayate and Stella: Stella was the one who made the transmission and basically told SS6 to ignore her and the other Huckebein, that there are bigger problems than them out there and the fact SS6 is acting in unadministered space in the first place. Hayate continued to chase them without offering any kind of promise of safety or help once captured. She also said criminal activities outweigh the restriction of acting in unadministered space, basically saying they'll act on ther own disregarding regulations.

[Sansker]

But on those notes the SD6 represents the law and the Hückebein family just pretends to be above it and let alone despite their continuous amounts of crimes with Stella even treating to attack bases and kill other mages. Not even wanting to talk and pretending the others listen.

DeVille should really stand down if he didn’t want to fight unnecessary, but then again he doesn’t even pretend to listen. Stella does the same and Cypha and Signum pretty much repeat their scenes in the second encounter Signum ask Cypha to come with her so she can explain herself three times and the other refuses.

[Akiyoshi]

@Kaijo
I'm actually mostly agreed with most of what you posted. It mostly comes down to me thinking Tohma isn't trying hard enough, or more accurately, his approachin is too soft and carefree for the kind of people he's trying to change.

Well, also that and the fact i think it's lazy to cut all groups of antagonists with the same scizors ..but my reason were already explained and i don't want to be too redundant.

@Kurohane
You're conveniently forgetting Stella also badmouthed Hayate and threatened her, the commanding officer of Section Six, with murder. She's a child so normally that wouldn't be that big of an issue but she just happen to be a member of a renowed group of paychos for hire xDU

Also, the Wolkenritter surrended their old ways over the six months they lived with Hayate ...that was the main reason Nanoha and her friends managed to get out alive from their first confrontation xDU

Fate wasn't even "bad" since the beginning, she disabled Nanoha and gave her a friendly warning to not get in her way o_o

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Fate wasn't even "bad" since the beginning, she disabled Nanoha and gave her a friendly warning to not get in her way o_o

The Hucks gave a warning, too, and tried to just disable Hayate and crew (much as they had disabled Bureau ships chasing them from before).

Really, almost no matter what you bring up, the comparisons between the Hucks and all the antagonists from before, simple rather identical.

[Akiyoshi]

Fate gave nanoha a concusion, Cypha gave Hayate a dying corpse, trule the same situation xDU

[Sansker]

No is not. The Hückebein family is different point as rather evil compare to the others in a more direct manner. Simple fact the Hückebein kill TSAB agents, innocent people and whatever they feel like killing just because. The others didn’t. Even the Numbers in all their inglorious acts didn’t kill that much. When attacking the main base they use knockout gas on the TSAB forces.

[Rising Dragon]

Actually, the Huckebein usually made it a point to not operate in Bureau-controlled space, and thus its unlikely for them to kill Bureau agents, and beyond that we don't know who they kill besides the targets of their missions. We simply don't know how the Huckebein family goes about for killing for the Eclipse infection. So we can't say they attack innocent people "just because".

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Fate gave nanoha a concusion, Cypha gave Hayate a dying corpse, trule the same situation xDU

As the movie manga 1st manga shows, Fate would have given the TSAB a dying corpse as well, if she could have. Fate and Arf were just unfortunate that Nanoha and Chrono could stand up to them.

Originally Posted by Sansker

No is not. The Hückebein family is different point as rather evil compare to the others in a more direct manner. Simple fact the Hückebein kill TSAB agents, innocent people and whatever they feel like killing just because. The others didn’t. Even the Numbers in all their inglorious acts didn’t kill that much. When attacking the main base they use knockout gas on the TSAB forces.

So, killing 8 people means, "You're okay!" but killing a village is "You're bad!" ? Are you suggesting that there a limit on the number of bodies that keeps one in the redeemable range? I'm curious, how many people does someone need to kill, before you feel they are unredeemable and evil?

Keep in mind, we never actually got a body count on the number of people the cyborgs killed. We know they killed some people when Zest, Megane, and Quint's unit found one of their bases. And we know some died during the peace conference, the Einherjer attack, and the Cradle attack. But we know it had to be quite a few.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

So, killing 8 people means, "You're okay!" but killing a village is "You're bad!" ? Are you suggesting that there a limit on the number of bodies that keeps one in the redeemable range? I'm curious, how many people does someone need to kill, before you feel they are unredeemable and evil?

Keep in mind, we never actually got a body count on the number of people the cyborgs killed. We know they killed some people when Zest, Megane, and Quint's unit found one of their bases. And we know some died during the peace conference, the Einherjer attack, and the Cradle attack. But we know it had to be quite a few.

9 people of course. And yes but everyone in StrikerS didn’t care about any of those victims so I assume they weren’t important either. Now keep in mind how really inefficient Jail was in that attack when he could kill them all and decide not to just because.

On a serious note as far as I know nobody died in any attack from the Numbers beyond Zest unit. We are never told the number of victims and we never see her directly murder someone. But on that note the befriend in StrikerS was stupid and simple on its own rights, when it was done off camera and with minimal characters for the evil ones.

Now here, we are still dealing with poor characterization, really evil attitude from the Hückebein and the entire angle of be friends with them is hold by Thoma when everyone else is trying to tell him he is an idiot and he really doesn’t even have real answers for this beyond “I just something I do”. So no, nothing like previous seasons really. Is similar enough, I will give you that, but is made as a lazy effort like if the author almost doesn’t care.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sansker

9 people of course. And yes but everyone in StrikerS didn’t care about any of those victims so I assume they weren’t important either. Now keep in mind how really inefficient Jail was in that attack when he could kill them all and decide not to just because.

He didn't, because he wanted to showcase that he was a humane person. Yes, it was crazy reasoning, but he was partly crazy and partly trolling. And since the numbers killed more than 9 people, you must now think them as evil as the Hucks!

On a serious note as far as I know nobody died in any attack from the Numbers beyond Zest unit. We are never told the number of victims and we never see her directly murder someone. But on that note the befriend in StrikerS was stupid and simple on its own rights, when it was done off camera and with minimal characters for the evil ones.

Ah, so just because you don't see it, means it isn't there. Well, I haven't seen you, so you must not exist. And because you haven't seen me kill people, that must mean you think I am a good person. As long as I keep my murders out of sight, even if you know about them, as long as you don't actually see them, means I am still a good person!

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

He didn't, because he wanted to showcase that he was a humane person. Yes, it was crazy reasoning, but he was partly crazy and partly trolling. And since the numbers killed more than 9 people, you must now think them as evil as the Hucks!

Ah, so just because you don't see it, means it isn't there. Well, I haven't seen you, so you must not exist. And because you haven't seen me kill people, that must mean you think I am a good person. As long as I keep my murders out of sight, even if you know about them, as long as you don't actually see them, means I am still a good person!

Jail didn't want to do that he later says he doesn't care about humans if is for give them purpose and Quattro shares this. He doesn't care and he was an idiot. For someone who waits years and makes such plan he sure as hell acts like a really stupid sane person. Nothing we really see about him makes me believe he is mad or under some kind of psychologically compulsion. He just seems to be a bad writer villain and that seems about it. On the other hand we never knew how many people the Numbers kill as you say or if they kill anyone at all. And well, Kaijo, if the anime doesn’t show me something then it doesn’t exist in that anime. That is the point of visual media.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Sansker

And well, Kaijo, if the anime doesn’t show me something then it doesn’t exist in that anime. That is the point of visual media.

... ... ... I'm sorry, not mean to be offensive but... this comment is so stupid I don't even know where to start.