Nanoha Franchise General Discussion Thread

[Sansker]

And I am not. All I am saying is that he is boring in his execution and no something that should remain or be consider essential.

[Justin_Brett]

...but he is.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Sansker

And I am not. All I am saying is that he is boring in his execution and no something that should remain or be consider essential.

That's like saying Palpatine wasn't the Big Bad of the Star Wars movies because he did nothing through New Hope or Empire Strikes Back and he did very little in Return of the Jedi.

Big Bads often times use their Dragons (for Palpatine it was Vadar) to enforce their will throughout the story.

Or you could look at Sauron from Lord of the Rings, he was the Big Bad, but what did he do in the story itself? He sent minions to get the Ring back, he didn't do it himself.

[Sansker]

But they are not the main antagonist during the journey and the stories are still made so by then their reveal are more of an impact that what Graham does. In the end he is not the villain or even the main problem they have to deal with as Palpatine or Sauron were in their own stories. And in those cases they were more of a force than actual characters until we get to meet the Emperor in Jedi and Sauron remains as the evil sending armies and minions commanding all sort of evil creatures etc. Those are examples of what Graham is not.

You see by the end the big trouble in A’s was the Book of Darkness not Graham and his plan for the book. So when the main antagonistic force is not the old man I say he can’t really be call essential to the plot in that regard. His actions are really nothing much during the entire series and his character is just so lacking of any kind of passion is hard to remember him. I am not saying he didn’t do his job because he does and he fits where he is set in a very good manner helping the plot but overall his parts were just something add to the main story and don’t need to be told in order to enjoy the rest. So if he is not in the A’s movie I don’t think we lose all that much.

So keep in mind he is good enough where he is but I don’t think he needs to be there as an important part of the story.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Sansker

So if he is not in the A’s movie I don’t think we lose all that much.

So...

If that's the case, and since he's NOT in the 2nd movie...

What reason does Hayate have for going berserk in the movie?

In the series, it was because the twins, under Graham's ORDERS, took out the knights, binded up Nanoha and Fate and then took the latter's appearance to make it seem like two girls she had just met had just murdered her family.

So, how does that work in the movie now?

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

So...

If that's the case, and since he's NOT in the 2nd movie...

What reason does Hayate have for going berserk in the movie?

In the series, it was because the twins, under Graham's ORDERS, took out the knights, binded up Nanoha and Fate and then took the latter's appearance to make it seem like two girls she had just met had just murdered her family.

So, how does that work in the movie now?

Spoiler for movie, just read somewhere and looked at the book:

In the movie, it was:

Went berserk on its own. And used tentacles on Signum, Shamal, Vita and Zafira (oh the tentacles on guyssss) I saw the pictures from the Nanoha the movie 2nd A's.

And Hayate was like: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Sansker]

We can see the movie and then discuss how the fact he wasn't there afected the story. I am saying what I feel about Graham but if we see the story really don't add up without him then I will be proof wrong.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by bhl88

Spoiler for movie, just read somewhere and looked at the book:

In the movie, it was:

Went berserk on its own. And used tentacles on Signum, Shamal, Vita and Zafira (oh the tentacles on guyssss) I saw the pictures from the Nanoha the movie 2nd A's.

And Hayate was like: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

So, if that's the case...

Spoiler for If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read:

Why does Reinforce attack Nanoha and Fate then? In the series, she was feeding off of Hayate's anger towards them, but if that's removed from the movie, then another plot hole happens.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Sansker

We can see the movie and then discuss how the fact he wasn't there afected the story. I am saying what I feel about Graham but if we see the story really don't add up without him then I will be proof wrong.

Oh ho ho ho!

I am going to HOLD you to this!

You won't be able to escape it!

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Yes because those inconsistencies doesn’t affect the overall series which still is enjoyable not because its plot but more because the character are nice.

Did you... wow, did you just take a negative stab towards A's plot?

Originally Posted by Sansker

But no, Graham is not an antagonist.

An antagonist opposes the protagonist. Graham opposed Nanoha & Co. Ergo, he is an antagonist.

Movie 101.

Again, without Graham, nothing in A's would have happened as it did. Masterminds don't need to be at the forefront to be plot essential. Hell, early Bond villains were just sitting in big chairs petting cats and looking evil. Palpatine did just that as well, only getting up to zap Luke literally in the last few minutes of the movie.

Regardless of the amount of screentime, Graham is critical to A's. He doesn't even need screentime to do what he does. He covers so many plotholes just by existing alone, to deny this is insanity.

Originally Posted by Sansker

And well, Keroko, everything is opinion based really. For that matter the series does what you can like while I can’t and we both had our reasons for it. Is call having an opinion. So no, you have no more right to say what is good or what is bad than I do, because is base on opinion.

Ah, correction there. For one, I freely admit whenever I criticize based on my opinion. However, you can judge stories with a certain level of objectivity. However, it involves less looking at "what characters did I like and what which did I hate" and more at "How is the story structured? What plot elements drove the characters? How is the story paced?"

For example, I dislike Fate.

But she is a good character.

Sounds weird? Not really. Fate is a character that, from an objective point of view, went through proper development. She was introduced to us, we learned of her conflict, we saw her struggle and witnessed its resolution. I could go into a lot of detail of the good and bad parts of it all, but from the point of view of an editor, she is a well put together character with clear defining personality traits, backstory and a healthy growth over the series.

It's just that a lot of the traits in question are not the kind of traits I like in characters.

So I dislike Fate, but will be the first to admit she is a good character.

Originally Posted by Sansker

And what will I like on the ongoing Nanoha series? How about more Nanoha to start?

Theeeere we go, finally something constructive. Force and Vivid aren't likely to provide this though. Perhaps Innocent?

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

So, if that's the case...

Spoiler for If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read:

Why does Reinforce attack Nanoha and Fate then? In the series, she was feeding off of Hayate's anger towards them, but if that's removed from the movie, then another plot hole happens.

Spoiler for Nanya:

Actar: From what I understand, Hayate saw the Defense Program (instead of the fake Nanoha and Fate) destroy the Knights and she lost her mind to despair. She was then absorbed into the book and the Consciousness of the Book of Darkness wanted to fulfill the last requests of her and her Knights. 1. To ‘destroy’ the harsh reality that took away her Knights and 2. To rid the hindrance of Nanoha and Fate (from allowing the Knights to fill up the pages of the book). But technically speaking, Reinforce, the Knights and Hayate were aware of the Defense Program. Why didn’t the CotBoD take that into consideration before acting out the final two requests or direct that anger and hatred towards the Defense Program? Well, I suppose you could say that the CotBoD was technically a ‘tool’ and only acted upon the final requests of the Knights and Hayate, despite them knowing about the program.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by bhl88

Spoiler for Nanya:

Actar: From what I understand, Hayate saw the Defense Program (instead of the fake Nanoha and Fate) destroy the Knights and she lost her mind to despair. She was then absorbed into the book and the Consciousness of the Book of Darkness wanted to fulfill the last requests of her and her Knights. 1. To ‘destroy’ the harsh reality that took away her Knights and 2. To rid the hindrance of Nanoha and Fate (from allowing the Knights to fill up the pages of the book). But technically speaking, Reinforce, the Knights and Hayate were aware of the Defense Program. Why didn’t the CotBoD take that into consideration before acting out the final two requests or direct that anger and hatred towards the Defense Program? Well, I suppose you could say that the CotBoD was technically a ‘tool’ and only acted upon the final requests of the Knights and Hayate, despite them knowing about the program.

Spoiler for Spoilers here:

So, again, the movie drops something that's important, though at least this time they make it somewhat plausible, I guess, that's a big improvement over the trainwreck the first movie was.

Still, it made more sense in the series, since the Knights and Hayate didn't know about the Protection Program and didn't know what was going on.

WAIT A SECOND!

If they knew about the Protection Program ahead of time and that filling the book would cause the world to be destroyed...

What the HELL?! They biggest point of filling the book in the series was because it might be able to cure Hayate and they didn't know about the Protection Program...

But if they DID know about it, WHY would they fill it up?!

That makes NO FREAKING SENSE!!!

[Sansker]

But you say it yourself Keroko, being objective. And I, believe or not, like A’s. Is my favorite season and I enjoy every second of it even how Graham’s parts not only add some kind of minor mystery to the story but also set some subplot for Chrono and his family even if it was downplay because the series had maybe a little too much going on. So I am being just objective here and say Graham it is not essential to the plot in A’s and I am willing to stay behind it. It was better executed that later subplots in StrikerS and in the end his actions does help some things but in the end I feel him and his role like a little extra on the series. I welcome it as more content that just makes the story richer is always good but I am not seeing him as something that must be there for the story to work. I want you to understand that part. I see his role making his way in but I am not saying that his is a role that makes the entire series move, he is downplay a lot and in the end shows little concern maybe something more intense will help his character but in the end he is there to fill that role and little more.

And I say no antagonist because more than oppose the main characters he is just going with his own plan. In the end he doesn’t care how the book is stop and he doesn’t disagree with the others objective just thinks he has a better solution. When that creates conflict in the end I don’t think he is that much of the opposite force at least in concept alone. He is antagonistic, that much is true but the real antagonist was the Book of Darkness.

I am doing what you are doing with Fate. "How is the story structured? What plot elements drove the characters? How is the story paced?". The story is about the Wolkenritter living with a nice master who will die if they don’t do something about it, they proceed and in their way fight Nanoha and the rest and also fall victims of their curse power that didn’t bring the salvation they wanted so is up to the protagonist to help them, put an end to the Book of Darkness. So, I see the basic lines and Graham doesn’t even need to be in there, when we come down to the details and how the series was structure then I need him but in the overall plot he is really not that important. Character motivation did happen without him even mention and we can see how the story is construct at its base level.

Things like that is why I dislike StrikerS, ViVid and Force. Their stories had tons of characters and subplots that more than add to each other are just next to each one and really not that important. Actions that don’t matter, entire subplots that end without even notice it and some ideas mention and then forget because we are busy with other stuff in a kind of chaotic way. But good or bad is a little subjective and there is where opinion kicks in. For all the trash I can say about Teana she is the only character in the Forwards that kind of has a real arc.

So what I tend to do is this: look at what the other says and see if I agree or not and if I understand or not. So far I follow your ideas and why you have those opinions I don’t share but when I try to explain this to you I find is hard for me because at times you not attack my argument as much as how I think of the subject. Even back in the Mid/Belka magic talk was started to be perceive as me just hating the styles than my arguments actually not making sense. Or I kind of see it you take that route to the point I should change my mind because what you consider the answer to my question when I try to explain why I don’t see that as an answer and then we go back to me just not seeing anything good and we lost the idea.

Read the first Innocent chapter and then not wanted to go back. Just feels like a little much of padding and by the end nothing was really accomplish besides we already are stuck right out the bat with tons of characters. Maybe is not that bad but it didn’t call my attention and I am not reading it right now. What I want is the old adventures Nanoha being the heroine doing missions, living with his friends, knowing new people and actually doing something.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Sansker

So I am being just objective here and say Graham it is not essential to the plot in A’s and I am willing to stay behind it.

That's PURELY your opinion!

Keroko, myself and others have pointed out to you, in GREAT DETAIL, that Graham was NEEDED for the plot of A's.

So, do NOT dress your opinions up as facts, get your head out of your ass and start looking up information about the series that you seem to not know.

[Justin_Brett]

The last thing Force needs is more of Nanoha. How about shedding some light on those new characters that were introduced, eh? That could be cool.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

The last thing Force needs is more of Nanoha. How about some of those new characters that were introduced, eh? That could be cool.

I agree.

I think it's far too late for that, but I agree.

[Justin_Brett]

I don't like the idea of it, but they probably should hurry up and have Touma join the Hucks already, just for the story's sake.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

That's PURELY your opinion!

Keroko, myself and others have pointed out to you, in GREAT DETAIL, that Graham was NEEDED for the plot of A's.

So, do NOT dress your opinions up as facts, get your head out of your ass and start looking up information about the series that you seem to not know.

Not necessarily, even if Graham was involved deeply in the plot of A's he was simply the "trigger" of events, he didn't even intervened directly with any of the characters. The trigger can be given away by a miriad of possibilities and Hayate could be supported pre-Wolkenritter in a variety of ways. Maybe Hayate's deceased father was a collector of weird books? Maybe the book DID chose Hayate as the new master? Maybe it's all part of a centuries long scheme planned by ancient magical demons? Who knows, the point is that Graham played a key role but not one were his identity is pivotal to accomplish.

[Justin_Brett]

Unless you don't want to put in worse alternatives or ones that cause plotholes.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

That's PURELY your opinion!

Keroko, myself and others have pointed out to you, in GREAT DETAIL, that Graham was NEEDED for the plot of A's.

So, do NOT dress your opinions up as facts, get your head out of your ass and start looking up information about the series that you seem to not know.

No. Again you miss the point. Is Graham a part of the story and fits in its place? Yes, he is. Now that means he is always need and the story could not work without him? No, and there is when you don't get it. I am saying he is not that important and his role is a little too passive. Again, my complain comes because of its execution and how in the overall scale his parts are not that necessary.

And yes, Force can’t use Nanoha but only because how bad things have been going on with the old cast. Still using Nanoha’s name on the title I had the wrong idea this might will have her playing a protagonist role. My bad.