AnimeSuki Forums

Ghostfriendly · 2016-11-20, 16:38

Emi's inability to bring Sadao back to Ente Isla, or kill him without getting arrested are only practical problems that she could have overcome in 16(?) volumes with sufficient incentive. In the world of video games/novels the Hero takes on an implicit responsibility to destroy the Demon King, as the only person strong and determined enough to do so. You're right that 'It's difficult to judge by human reason', hence we normally have trials before executing anybody, except for immediate threats, like a mad gunman/suicide bomber. Most demon kings are such a vast, uncontainable standing threat that the hero can only fight and slay them.

Sadao is not presently such a threat, so Emi's reason to kill him immediately is gone. However, she is so stuck in the 'hero kills the demon' narrative/won over by Sadao's charm and apparent innocence, she never moves on to the idea that he could still be tried and found guilty of his crimes in the past, and should be.

I mentioned Eichmann not to compare Sadao to the Nazis, but to make the point that guilt for past sins does not go away simply through adopting a virtuous lifestyle, only by God's forgiveness. On the subject of God, He can justly do things that would be wrong if done by humans, due to His unimpeachable motives, perfect knowledge of consequences, and authority as the creator, but His actions fulfil the same motives as the morality he gives to humans. The 'respect the authorities' verse doesn't command active support for wrong acts, just respectful submission to the political conditions God has decreed for the world.

Tenzen12 · 2016-11-21, 00:33

Alright, so you have your check list what hero should do because games and novels. Then you give it orphaned barely teen farm girl and tell her to do all on that list and then get irritated if she just save the world. Did I get it right?

As for demon king, there is no such thing. Maou is the king of people, they have specific culture, lifestyle and unique racial traits, but ultimately they are no less people than Caucasians or negroids( well with exception of these are actually birds, but these are people too).. HataMaou deals lot with prejudices and about looking behind labels (such as demon king and hero). Do you know why Maou invaded? Do you know details of invasion? If you want judge someone you should understand case first.

You are also wrong about Emi, she is not charmed and she never forgot what he did. We are talking about person who is responsible for death of her father, ruined whole her life. That can't be forgotten with little of charm. She is confused because she came kill evil monster but what she found was nether monster nor evil and she tries connect dots between Maou she see and person he is "supposed" be.

Ghostfriendly · 2016-11-26, 05:57

Emi fulfils the role of a hero perfectly well, in a series about the deficiencies in the video game 'hero' concept. But rather than going beyond this cliched role, to bring the demon king to justice, she seems to have effectively abandoned her mission. I believe there are some posts in this thread about her being 'dere' to Sadao in recent volumes (I ship them, in a bit of a twisted 'demon and fallen angel' way)?

I can't say much about details of the story that work to justify its male lead, but he is stylised as, and plays the part of, a Dark Lord waging wars of aggression. If I don't know exactly what he did while conquering Enta Isla, this presentation justifies the presumption that he has committed crimes, and the generally impression of the series is the influence I'd object to.

'Sins deserve punishment and serious repentance, whatever good things one has done since' is not a message one could receive from these novels, and it would be a good one. 'Sins don't necessarily need to be punished' is a message one could receive, and it is a false one. 'Demons aren't really 'evil monsters'' is also a message one could receive, and that is wrong, wrong, wrong. Different people groups have been wrongly demonised through history, but the portrayal of demons, evil by definition, as cool and misunderstood, has been a false, dangerous message since Paradise Lost.

You should see by now that my objections are more about the moral implications of the novels than their subjective quality. That should effect whether you want to carry on discussing such issues, which are probably very different from the reasons you read these novels yourself.

Tenzen12 · 2016-11-26, 07:07

Yeah, she indeed became "dere" in recent volumes and yeah it's partially because she indeed abandoned her position as "video game hero". But it it took 11 volumes or so of character development and serious deviation from "video game settings" where "video game hero" can exist. And ship that became possible due this shift is that of two humans.

"Sins deserve punishment and serious repentance" actually is message that is not missing in this story. I am not sure if I could call central one, but definitely relevant. Eitherway it doesn't try trivialise Maou past.

Demons of Ente Isla are "cool but misunderstood" (if you want call it that way) in other hand is indeed message of story. But you should understand that they are not biblical demons neither are Angels biblical ones, but both are race on their own. That too is major plot point of novels actually. As paradoxical as it sounds even Maou attempt conquer Enter Isla is direct result of his desire for peace.

I will repeat, It is not known whether "real" demons and angels exist in HataMaou verse (or if they are just constructed belief), but it's confirmed that both of races bearings that names are humans by origin and not related to it. Yes, it explicitly make such distinction.

Ayato_kanzaki · 2016-11-27, 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

As paradoxical as it sounds even Maou attempt conquer Enter Isla is direct result of his desire for peace.

Can you expand on that? I haven't read HMS yet (my backlog is getting pretty big, thanks to several 1000+ chapters web novels), but each time I think back about the HMS anime, I wonder why there was a war in the first place...

Tenzen12 · 2016-11-27, 18:56

I will try keep it short.

Spoiler for unification and invasion.:

Ayato_kanzaki · 2016-11-28, 00:51

Thanks for the spoiler. I was imagining scenarios about the human inquisition pushing the demons into a preventive or punitive war...

Tenzen12 · 2016-11-28, 01:07

It wasn't just war, simply war over resources like any other. Maybe bit more humane than some. It's actually better this way as it put Maou on same level as human kings rather than some kind hero of oppressed. He did it for survival of his people, it was mistake and it's burden he will have to carry for rest of his life.

The 48th Ronin · 2016-11-28, 01:44

So the Demons need to be evil, in order to survive.

Tenzen12 · 2016-11-28, 11:06

Technically... or they could make living as tax collector or clowns. No one like clowns...

Ghostfriendly · 2016-11-29, 10:18

Right, that's the setting. Still not impressed with demons at all, or their being portrayed as basically human creatures anywhere.

NAJ P. Jackson · 2016-11-29, 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Technically... or they could make living as tax collector or clowns. No one like clowns...

Or they could go into politics. Everyone knows politicians are evil.

The Green One · 2016-11-29, 10:25

Clowns.....now that's TRUE evil.

Tenzen12 · 2016-11-29, 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

Right, that's the setting. Still not impressed with demons at all, or their being portrayed as basically human creatures anywhere.

You are not impressed? That alright, after all it's not like you are supposed to.

Demons are savages without culture or concept of peace. Did you saw Mad Max movies? That's basically spitting Image of DW. It doesn't mean they are different. Give them Chinese pop star singing about her pilot boyfriend and watch how quickly they deculture themselves.

Imagine Breaker · 2016-11-29, 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

Right, that's the setting. Still not impressed with demons at all, or their being portrayed as basically human creatures anywhere.

And that's the point of the story. Well, anything more would be unreliable spoiler so....

If you want to stick to your ideals that demons were purely evil monsters...then maybe you should stop with this series. It'll just give you headaches.

Haru00 · 2016-12-03, 10:14

quick question, so who's the strongest character as of now?
and who's stronger in order between Maou,Emi,Lucifer,Alsiel and Gabriel?

Tenzen12 · 2016-12-03, 11:33

Miki T and family/stairs-san > Lucifer mother (?) > Maou > = Emi >= Sephiras > Gabriel >= Raguel >= lucifer = Alsiel >= Sariel>= Camio >= Alberto/Eme > Suzuno = Melbranche chieftains.

Plus minus, it should also noted Alsiel while relatively low can easily match even with Emi by sheer tankiness when it comes to it. Anyway whole this is pretty much rule of thumb.

Haru00 · 2016-12-03, 11:57

Holy crap Miki T's that powerful? at least Maou's more powerful than Emi and his underlings, also wow Alsiel's durability can tank that much?

Tenzen12 · 2016-12-03, 13:29

Yeah Miki T is that strong. I don't wanna jinx it, but she might be even more powerful than Stair-san. I am kidding you not.

Maou vs. Emi: while there it's impossible say for sure. Maou seem to lot of faster this time as he completely blitzer Old man Gab and Raguel, while Emi had to actually put some fight.

As for Alsiel hype,he Is toughest nut to crack in whole novels. Just for you to get image: vanilla!Emi cut Maou horn with her "One wing" sword in their battle. Gab with Durandal cut 1W like paper. Upgraded 1W cut Durandal in same fashion. Alsiel can lol nope both. Lucifer's heat rays apparently can do a job though.

All generals are roughly on same level with different stats distribution.

Edit: I might made mistake here. I am not sure at the moment but I believe Emi sword is actually called ''Better half" and 1W is name of Maou sword instead.

AP24 · 2016-12-11, 01:48

Next volume coming out in February is called "High School N". I'm guessing it's the novel version of the spinoff manga.

Seems like Vol 17 release might end up being a year after Vol 16.

2016-11-21, 00:33	Link #1322
Tenzen12 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012	Alright, so you have your check list what hero should do because games and novels. Then you give it orphaned barely teen farm girl and tell her to do all on that list and then get irritated if she just save the world. Did I get it right? As for demon king, there is no such thing. Maou is the king of people, they have specific culture, lifestyle and unique racial traits, but ultimately they are no less people than Caucasians or negroids( well with exception of these are actually birds, but these are people too).. HataMaou deals lot with prejudices and about looking behind labels (such as demon king and hero). Do you know why Maou invaded? Do you know details of invasion? If you want judge someone you should understand case first. You are also wrong about Emi, she is not charmed and she never forgot what he did. We are talking about person who is responsible for death of her father, ruined whole her life. That can't be forgotten with little of charm. She is confused because she came kill evil monster but what she found was nether monster nor evil and she tries connect dots between Maou she see and person he is "supposed" be. __________________ "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll) Last edited by Tenzen12; 2016-11-21 at 00:46.

2016-11-26, 07:07	Link #1324
Tenzen12 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012	Yeah, she indeed became "dere" in recent volumes and yeah it's partially because she indeed abandoned her position as "video game hero". But it it took 11 volumes or so of character development and serious deviation from "video game settings" where "video game hero" can exist. And ship that became possible due this shift is that of two humans. "Sins deserve punishment and serious repentance" actually is message that is not missing in this story. I am not sure if I could call central one, but definitely relevant. Eitherway it doesn't try trivialise Maou past. Demons of Ente Isla are "cool but misunderstood" (if you want call it that way) in other hand is indeed message of story. But you should understand that they are not biblical demons neither are Angels biblical ones, but both are race on their own. That too is major plot point of novels actually. As paradoxical as it sounds even Maou attempt conquer Enter Isla is direct result of his desire for peace. I will repeat, It is not known whether "real" demons and angels exist in HataMaou verse (or if they are just constructed belief), but it's confirmed that both of races bearings that names are humans by origin and not related to it. Yes, it explicitly make such distinction. __________________ "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll) Last edited by Tenzen12; 2016-11-26 at 09:08.

2016-11-27, 18:56	Link #1326
Tenzen12 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012	I will try keep it short. Spoiler for unification and invasion.: Demon world is pretty brutal place. Big powerful clans fight over supremacy, not so strong for bare survival. Maou clan was later and got wiped out leaving him. Then he was picked by MILF angel (Emi mother), who nursed him and educated a bit. With bit broader horizons than most demins Mao decided unify it and create society where weak don't have to be afraid for life. With bit of diplomacy, witty tactics and lit of Nanoha styled befriending he finally succeeded and peace visited land. BUT demons live out of demonic magic, and if you saw anime you know that DM comes from negative emotions. As long as they were slaughtering each other there was no problem, but now in near (by demonic standard) future Satan's revolution would lead to "famine". And in their world solution didn't exist... And that's how invasion started. This is mostly my conjecture, but considering that war was more or less human-friendly and Maou himself spend lot of time studying their culture to find best way to integrate them, it doesn't look like Mao had any intend terrorise mankind just to get DM. __________________ "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll)

2016-11-28, 01:07	Link #1328
Tenzen12 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012	It wasn't just war, simply war over resources like any other. Maybe bit more humane than some. It's actually better this way as it put Maou on same level as human kings rather than some kind hero of oppressed. He did it for survival of his people, it was mistake and it's burden he will have to carry for rest of his life. __________________ "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll)

2016-11-28, 01:44	Link #1329
The 48th Ronin Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Anywhere. I'm a nomad.	So the Demons need to be evil, in order to survive. __________________ . "You can always die. It's living that takes real courage." .

2016-11-20, 16:38	Link #1321
Ghostfriendly Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008	Emi's inability to bring Sadao back to Ente Isla, or kill him without getting arrested are only practical problems that she could have overcome in 16(?) volumes with sufficient incentive. In the world of video games/novels the Hero takes on an implicit responsibility to destroy the Demon King, as the only person strong and determined enough to do so. You're right that 'It's difficult to judge by human reason', hence we normally have trials before executing anybody, except for immediate threats, like a mad gunman/suicide bomber. Most demon kings are such a vast, uncontainable standing threat that the hero can only fight and slay them. Sadao is not presently such a threat, so Emi's reason to kill him immediately is gone. However, she is so stuck in the 'hero kills the demon' narrative/won over by Sadao's charm and apparent innocence, she never moves on to the idea that he could still be tried and found guilty of his crimes in the past, and should be. I mentioned Eichmann not to compare Sadao to the Nazis, but to make the point that guilt for past sins does not go away simply through adopting a virtuous lifestyle, only by God's forgiveness. On the subject of God, He can justly do things that would be wrong if done by humans, due to His unimpeachable motives, perfect knowledge of consequences, and authority as the creator, but His actions fulfil the same motives as the morality he gives to humans. The 'respect the authorities' verse doesn't command active support for wrong acts, just respectful submission to the political conditions God has decreed for the world.

2016-11-26, 05:57	Link #1323
Ghostfriendly Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008	Emi fulfils the role of a hero perfectly well, in a series about the deficiencies in the video game 'hero' concept. But rather than going beyond this cliched role, to bring the demon king to justice, she seems to have effectively abandoned her mission. I believe there are some posts in this thread about her being 'dere' to Sadao in recent volumes (I ship them, in a bit of a twisted 'demon and fallen angel' way)? I can't say much about details of the story that work to justify its male lead, but he is stylised as, and plays the part of, a Dark Lord waging wars of aggression. If I don't know exactly what he did while conquering Enta Isla, this presentation justifies the presumption that he has committed crimes, and the generally impression of the series is the influence I'd object to. 'Sins deserve punishment and serious repentance, whatever good things one has done since' is not a message one could receive from these novels, and it would be a good one. 'Sins don't necessarily need to be punished' is a message one could receive, and it is a false one. 'Demons aren't really 'evil monsters'' is also a message one could receive, and that is wrong, wrong, wrong. Different people groups have been wrongly demonised through history, but the portrayal of demons, evil by definition, as cool and misunderstood, has been a false, dangerous message since Paradise Lost. You should see by now that my objections are more about the moral implications of the novels than their subjective quality. That should effect whether you want to carry on discussing such issues, which are probably very different from the reasons you read these novels yourself.

2016-11-28, 00:51	Link #1327
Ayato_kanzaki Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015	Thanks for the spoiler. I was imagining scenarios about the human inquisition pushing the demons into a preventive or punitive war...

2016-11-28, 11:06	Link #1330
Tenzen12 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012	Technically... or they could make living as tax collector or clowns. No one like clowns... __________________ "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll)

2016-11-29, 10:18	Link #1331
Ghostfriendly Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008	Right, that's the setting. Still not impressed with demons at all, or their being portrayed as basically human creatures anywhere.

2016-11-29, 10:25	Link #1333
The Green One Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010	Clowns.....now that's TRUE evil. __________________

2016-12-03, 10:14	Link #1336
Haru00 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Kaio	quick question, so who's the strongest character as of now? and who's stronger in order between Maou,Emi,Lucifer,Alsiel and Gabriel?

2016-12-03, 11:33	Link #1337
Tenzen12 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012	Miki T and family/stairs-san > Lucifer mother (?) > Maou > = Emi >= Sephiras > Gabriel >= Raguel >= lucifer = Alsiel >= Sariel>= Camio >= Alberto/Eme > Suzuno = Melbranche chieftains. Plus minus, it should also noted Alsiel while relatively low can easily match even with Emi by sheer tankiness when it comes to it. Anyway whole this is pretty much rule of thumb. __________________ "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll)

2016-12-03, 11:57	Link #1338
Haru00 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Kaio	Holy crap Miki T's that powerful? at least Maou's more powerful than Emi and his underlings, also wow Alsiel's durability can tank that much?

2016-12-03, 13:29	Link #1339
Tenzen12 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012	Yeah Miki T is that strong. I don't wanna jinx it, but she might be even more powerful than Stair-san. I am kidding you not. Maou vs. Emi: while there it's impossible say for sure. Maou seem to lot of faster this time as he completely blitzer Old man Gab and Raguel, while Emi had to actually put some fight. As for Alsiel hype,he Is toughest nut to crack in whole novels. Just for you to get image: vanilla!Emi cut Maou horn with her "One wing" sword in their battle. Gab with Durandal cut 1W like paper. Upgraded 1W cut Durandal in same fashion. Alsiel can lol nope both. Lucifer's heat rays apparently can do a job though. All generals are roughly on same level with different stats distribution. Edit: I might made mistake here. I am not sure at the moment but I believe Emi sword is actually called ''Better half" and 1W is name of Maou sword instead. __________________ "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll) Last edited by Tenzen12; 2016-12-03 at 13:53.

2016-12-11, 01:48	Link #1340
AP24 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011	Next volume coming out in February is called "High School N". I'm guessing it's the novel version of the spinoff manga. Seems like Vol 17 release might end up being a year after Vol 16.