(L) Victorian Romance Emma 2nd season

[nanafan]

Originally Posted by Pheonix2772

I think they are trying to write the conclusion that Mori herself wasn't able to come to, and I am almost certain it involves William getting everything, with some inevitable exceptions, on his own terms. How they do that, plotwise, will determine whether this worked or not. If they stretch historical credulity too far, it'll be a wash.

i don't know how they could possibly get a happy ending where he isn't disinherited and gets emma, like you said that kinda stuff didn't happen then.

[Mangaka-chan]

I noticed some similarities in theme and mood between the anime and the manga after watching epi. 9, and I don't think they're going to do the last major arc in the manga.

Spoiler for thoughts after epi. 9:

When Emma went to the place where she was born and stared into the ocean I suddenly remembered the scene in the manga where she was looking out across the ocean after being dropped off in America. Something about the two scenes just seem really similar, and I think it might be the mood. And when Emma comes back to the Moulder house in London and Tasha gives Emma a hug it also reminded me of the hug she gave Emma when Emma finally returned from America. In a way I think the anime has changed the America arc and rewritten it as the Run Away arc. And interestingly enough, Hans, not William, is the one that brings her back. As of now, I'm pretty convinced Emma won't be kidnapped, since the Viscount doesn't need the Jounes' money any more and Emma had already been brought back to the Moulder's household.

[Sorrow-K]

Holy crap, after naively reading the spoilers in Mangaka-chan's post, I can see why there are people so up-in-arms about the changes they're making in the anime when compared with the manga.

Ep 9

Decent ep. I applaud the fact that William has become so resolute, but as others have mentioned, though it seems like the most probable ending, it's not obvious how they can end with William getting everything he wants, while this remaining an accurate portrayal of the time. The storytelling in this ep was particularly good, though. I dig the way that they show reactions to events from so many different and varying points of view, which also does a pretty good job of highlighting the divide in Victorian society.

Looking forward to seeing how they can wrap this up, but I am starting to understand why people are a little underwhelmed by this season of Emma.

[Mangaka-chan]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

Holy crap, after naively reading the spoilers in Mangaka-chan's post, I can see why there are people so up-in-arms about the changes they're making in the anime when compared with the manga.

Personally I don't want to pass judgement until the anime ends, and even then I'd prefer to judge it on its own merit, and not compare it to the manga. Even though the two have the same title, it's obvious the execution is very different, and it just didn't seem fair IMO to judge one solely based on the other without considering the anime's own merits.

[servidor]

Too bad, episode 11 felt like another filler episode. A couple of crisis that didn't appear in the manga, well the second one looks like a variant of chapter 33 of the manga.

Spoiler for Episode 11:

I just watched episode 11 and with the little I could understand, I can tell that the Viscount Campbell seems to be a very vengeful man, too bad he not only wants to ruin William, but his family as well.

The preview for episode 12 were scenes from past episodes, I have the feeling that the Second Act might end in a cliffhanger. It seems unlikely that William can solve the unexpected financial crisis and change Emma's heart in just one episode.

[Miles Teg]

From a spoiler everything seem to be resolved at the end of episode 12.

http://anime.goo.ne.jp/contents/tvan.../12/index.html

Spoiler for Episode 12 spoiler in Japanase:

メルダース家から火の手が上がった。煤けた部屋の中、ウィリアムから貰ったレースのハンカチと日記が焼けず に残っていた。傍らにいたハンスに促されエマはクリスタルパレスへ急ぐ。事業の局面を乗り越えたウィリアム もエマとの約束の場所へ急ぐ。閉園間際のクリスタルパレス。ウィリアムはエマを捜すが見つからない。人波に 逆らいながらたどり着いた噴水の前、エマはウィリアムを見つけた。自らウィリアムの胸へ飛び込むエマ。エマ は決意を告白するのだった。

[isolatedincidence]

The manga is a little slow paced, so I can understand they changes they have made for the anime adaption. I may not like all of them, but I am really enjoying Hans' expanded screen time. They are actually turning him into the character/potential rival I expected him to be in the manga, where he was pretty much a non-figure.

[kujoe]

These so-called improvements come at a high price in my opinion. Funny thing is, while Hans' role is less pivotal in the manga, I found his enigmatic and detached personality more interesting in there than in the anime.

The manga is straight as an arrow William and Emma trying to get together (with some slice of life this and that), while the anime has partly become a rushed love triangle of sorts. Sometimes, simpler is better. (I still mourn for chapter 35, damnit.) In fact, I really don't mind if the anime becomes just as slow paced as the manga. It's better to have a third season than to fit and rush the whole thing.

Originally Posted by Sorrow-k

Holy crap, after naively reading the spoilers in Mangaka-chan's post, I can see why there are people so up-in-arms about the changes they're making in the anime when compared with the manga.

Haha, feel our pain.

But as all things go, I'm reserving final judgment until I see the finished product. But for now, color me disappointed with mixed feelings.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by kujoe

But as all things go, I'm reserving final judgment until I see the finished product. But for now, color me disappointed with mixed feelings.

Understand wholeheartedly, the changes more often than not seem to have taken away something from the overall story.

[Pheonix2772]

Spoiler for thoughts on the Raw Ep 11:

I don't get hardly any of the dialogue, but it is clear Campbell is tightening the screws now (he can't be thinking of abducting Emma? He can't be that dumb, there no reason for it, other than spite. What a stupid thing to risk if he is.) Loved that whole "money changing hands in a smoke filled room thing." That "hit man," or whatever he turns out to be, didn't seem too happy with what he had in mind though.

I get what is happening in that next part. The new BG music alone tells the story. William is getting his act together, marshaling his allies to get new business contacts. Good for him. And the new prospective contacts are mostly Young Lions, not Old Dogs. Smart move. Campbell is a problem but he's not the whole of England. And he's the past, not the future. But William is still coming up short, it looks like.

The Old Dogs appear to be razzing Campbell over William's determination. He may yet be driven to have Emma abducted out of sheer spite.

Did Arthur fail to get, or lose, his prefect's gig? Looks like the family is coming together behind William though. Or at least they don't hate him anymore. Hard to read what Richard is thinking.

Emma visits Kelly's grave, and other places that make her think of the past. She's resurrecting ghosts now. Bad for Hans, but good for William.

I wondered when they were going to work the exploding coal fire into it.

My jury is still out on the changes, but they seem to have something in mind. I'll stick with it.

[kira-sama]

just finishing episode 8 & 9
my opinion about william he's so rush about agreement that engagement even he already know that he can't forget about emma
that's why he felt guilty

and for Viscount he's so scary man, i agree with monica that her father just concern his pride than his daughter

fuih episode 10 will be interesting between william and Hans

BTW total episodes of this second act will be 12 episodes?

[Yogo_Pogo]

I don't really like the second act. Emma is portrayed as a paragoon of virtue. She also seem to get special treatment from the boss. Those two things are what i hate the most about some principsl character of anime/manga/books/movies or tv. I am also the type that prefer an anime adaptation of a manga to stay as close as possible to the original.

I was reading the manga before the first act was made into an anime. I downloaded the anime but did not watch it. I did the same with the earlier part of the second act, until i was able to read the entire manga. The manga is good but if i was introduced to Victorian Romance Emma by the anime first, i know i would never have touched the manga.

Maybe the anime will have an happy end. Like William and Emma getting together and such. Maybe they'll even show Eleanor getting someone.
Whatever is the ending i think i will not like it anyway....

[Cal-Reflector]

To those who have finished reading the manga: I would like to know what people thought about the way the story ended. I have just finished reading the manga today (bought the series two days ago), the quality of the work set me on fire even more than the time I first read the scanlations by iitran years ago.

See some familiar faces in this thread too. *Waves*

Spoiler for As Objective as I can manage:

Of all the great characters in this series (Suppose I'll watch season 2 just to catch more Hans), if you boil it down there are only three who have a direct stake in the central romance around which the story revolves: William Jones, Emma, and Eleanor. The rest are supporting actors or plot drivers.

Of the three main characters, there is one who gets unequivocally shafted, that's Eleanor; Girl really gets the raw end of the stick, doesn't she? There's also only one character of three who has really done some thing wrong, and that's William. Not for falling in love and pursuing Emma or shirking his duties or ruining his family's social standing, but the way in which he breaks Eleanor's heart, first by proposing to her when he doesn't mean it and then breaking it off later in... well, what could only be considered a cruel and irresponsible act. His love for Emma is a thing of beauty, which I think few would disagree with, but that means very little to Eleanor doesn't it?

At best, one might say Eleanor was a victim of William's inner turmoil and impulsive behavior. Either way, by the standards of the period or even now, Will's behavior towards her is quite unforgivable, and to me, the story ended with a somewhat bitter note because this. It is a difficult Happily-ever-After to accept when it has come at the cost of a tragedy which our hero was responsible for inflicting. *Sigh*

[kujoe]

Hey, Cal. *waves back* Have you read the bangaihen chapters yet? There's more of Eleanor in one of those chapters. I think you might be interested.

As for what I thought of the ending of the manga...

Spoiler for something hopefully not wholly off-topic in this thread:

Basically, I'm both torn and happy for it and for the very same reasons that you have pointed out. I also realize that love is always an unfair "game," and the fact that I feel sorry for its victims is indicative of their power to move me as a reader. I may try to detach myself as much as possible and try to reason things out from a distance, but at the end of the day, I care.

I think the manga is very effective in painting a scenario where the rights and wrongs—the mistakes and right choices—go hand in hand when hearts collide. Emma understands that her love for William will be difficult—outside the norms of society—yet she's still willing to be burned by it. Eleanor herself knows that William's heart belongs to another, yet she still pursues him knowing that such an act will only hurt her more. And William, who seemingly comes out unscathed from all of this after going against what is expected of him, has to deal with the scrutiny and prejudice of upper class society (and of his family) probably for the rest of his life.

In a way, it actually reminds me of that one line from Onegai Teacher—believe it or not—which goes something like "People strive for happiness even though it may hurt others. Is it that wrong?" The specific context may be different perhaps, but both circumstances are still comparable to a certain extent.

It's all painful and hard, but individuals will strive for such happiness nonetheless. Victorian Romance Emma isn't all roses and crystal palaces. The story has something harsh about it, and yet for what it's worth, there are still those moments that make the whole thing...romantic.

I apologize. I'm having a hard time with my words here. My mind can't seem to hold on to what I exactly want to say. It's like, "Yes, I like it but something's missing...something important... I still do like the way it turns out, but in a way I kind of feel sorry for liking it." Or something like that.

Am I making any sense?

The anime is changing a few things however. I'm not sure if I'll be having the same reaction at the end.

[Pheonix2772]

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

To those who have finished reading the manga: I would like to know what people thought about the way the story ended. I have just finished reading the manga today (bought the series two days ago), the quality of the work set me on fire even more than the time I first read the scanlations by iitran years ago.

See some familiar faces in this thread too. *Waves*

Spoiler for As Objective as I can manage:

Of all the great characters in this series (Suppose I'll watch season 2 just to catch more Hans), if you boil it down there are only three who have a direct stake in the central romance around which the story revolves: William Jones, Emma, and Eleanor. The rest are supporting actors or plot drivers.

Of the three main characters, there is one who gets unequivocally shafted, that's Eleanor; Girl really gets the raw end of the stick, doesn't she? There's also only one character of three who has really done some thing wrong, and that's William. Not for falling in love and pursuing Emma or shirking his duties or ruining his family's social standing, but the way in which he breaks Eleanor's heart, first by proposing to her when he doesn't mean it and then breaking it off later in... well, what could only be considered a cruel and irresponsible act. His love for Emma is a thing of beauty, which I think few would disagree with, but that means very little to Eleanor doesn't it?

At best, one might say Eleanor was a victim of William's inner turmoil and impulsive behavior. Either way, by the standards of the period or even now, Will's behavior towards her is quite unforgivable, and to me, the story ended with a somewhat bitter note because this. It is a difficult Happily-ever-After to accept when it has come at the cost of a tragedy which our hero was responsible for inflicting. *Sigh*

Spoiler for manga:

The Manga story ended inconclusively, that is, it didn't end.

I also can't help but see Richard as the person this story is about, as much as anyone. The sin of the father does not sit well with the son, now that he has fallen in love with Emma. This is the core of the story for me. Yes, William is going to do terrible things to repent what Richard did to Aurelia, and in this regard, Eleanor, cute and innocent though she is, is the bait, the carrot Victorian Society is offering to a social rebel. Her father, the Viscount, is the stick. How one sees Eleanor depends on which side of the argument you're on. If you're on the side of a certain concept of freedom here, Eleanor can be seen as the very devil of the story. (My own loyalties? Temperamentally conservative, Intellectually radical-though in a very qualified sense. I see both sides quite well.)

One has to remember this is a Japanese take on a Victorian Era society (It is both like and unlike James Cameron's dreadful Titanic- which was an American take) and in this one William will have to find a way to reconcile the competing claims of Victorian society (which btw, was a pretty damn good society- one could do far worse) and "what he wants."

What intrigues me is that Emma comes from a Japanese perspective. In Japan, the uchi-soto distinctions are everything. In that regard, even today Japan is more like a first century Palestine honor society than anything Modern Americans really understand without a lot of study or experience of other cultures. The closest analogy is to think of living in a world of high school cliques for the rest of your life, codified into society as a whole and the very language itself (society and language are the same thing really). All those honorifics - chan, -san, -kun, -sama, they're all designed to signify who is 'in' and who is 'out'. Manners may require that one be polite to an "outer" but still one is 'outside.'

That's the background against which this story is being played. If you say to someone from that era "let your conscience be your guide" or be "true to yourself" or "true to your feelings" they'd look at you like you from Mars. As I said, the reason this story intrigues me so is that I am going to get a chance to see how the Japanese writers resolve the conflict between uchi-soto concepts and William's desires. Insofar as Mori's manga resolves the conflict at all, it does so in a way someone writing a love story wants it to be resolved. The anime writers may take a different tack, perhaps more socially acceptable, perhaps not.

If I may make a point from my one other anime obsession, the great fear in Sailor Moon is Chaos. The scenes of social anarchy that result from enemy attacks are often the most poignant images to come out of Takeuchi's manga, or the anime. It is the great fear people in conformist societies have: that "let your conscience or your feelings be your guide" is only anarchy.

[Cal-Reflector]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Hey, Cal. *waves back* Have you read the bangaihen chapters yet? There's more of Eleanor in one of those chapters. I think you might be interested.

As for what I thought of the ending of the manga...

Been a while Kujoe; not since I pulled a Johan at the Mushishi thread, I believe.

I've read the Bangaihen chapters, they're fantastic, Kelly and Doug are precious, the cook's story was quite unnecessary, as was the bartender's. No Hans, Adelle, and even Hakim makes me extremely unhappy, especially when the squirrel got a fifth of the book all to himself. *Flips Table* As for Eleanor, well, we see her in the process of moving on, but that and the events of the main story are two things.

Spoiler:

I infer from your message that a major difference between the manga and anime is this: In the anime, Eleanor knows that William has his heart set on someone else but still pursues him. In the manga however she does not, and falls quite naturally into love with the kind, considerate, and handsome young Mr. Jones. And then of course he proposes to her, and they get engaged, and one can't really blame Eleanor for thinking William liked her too after that, right? When we make many allowances for Will's behavior, I think most overlook the fact that Eleanor is even younger, a girl who doesn't understand why her happiness is gone.

In the process of his angst and growing up, William does some stupid things which even he knows is wrong; Children are forgiven for their trespasses, but William is a man, and men of William's character and caliber should keep their promises and live with the consequences of their decisions. Borrowing a method from kant: If William's behavior (breaking his promise because his passion lay elsewhere) became a rule of the universe, would the world be a better place? I.E. In all instances where people find themselves in William's shoes, would we wish that they emulate him? "Be true to your heart, promises made be damned"?

I apologize for my judgemental tone; I hope we've chatted enough in the past for you to recognize that I'm not just trying to be an asshole fanboy who didn't get what he want. Maybe I was a bit like that in the Hachikuro thread, not here though.

To Phoenix2772: Thank you for the feedback. Personally, though I lean towards the conservative, I hold nothing against William for balking at England's two-tiered society. I loved his romance with Emma and squeed... well, rejoiced, when things looked up for them. Everything soured however when he proposed and then broke the engagement; I would have been just as outraged if Eleanor was a fisherman's daughter. Hence I don't see this transgression as related to the uchi-soto conflict. It is simply one human being betraying the love and trust of another.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

Been a while Kujoe; not since I pulled a Johan at the Mushishi thread, I believe.

Oh, the memories.

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

Spoiler:

I infer from your message that a major difference between the manga and anime is this: In the anime, Eleanor knows that William has his heart set on someone else but still pursues him. In the manga however she does not, and falls quite naturally into love with the kind, considerate, and handsome young Mr. Jones.

Spoiler:

True, I may have confused the two a bit, but since the first season (which is more faithful to the manga, at least compared to the current one), I already felt that Eleanor has been already walking that path. A part of me was going, "you'll regret it, girl..." even though the other part was saying, "yes, go for it."

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

Spoiler:

And then of course he proposes to her, and they get engaged, and one can't really blame Eleanor for thinking William liked her too after that, right? When we make many allowances for Will's behavior, I think most overlook the fact that Eleanor is even younger, a girl who doesn't understand why her happiness is gone.

Spoiler:

As harsh as it may seem, I view Eleanor's side of the story as a coming of age for her, especially in light of her bangaihen chapter. In the same manner that Richard's past reflects William's conflicts, I find Eleanor's failure at love reflective of her mother's situation—two women who both have lost their innocence, but gaining some measure of wisdom that is different from one another. It's not that I'm excusing William's choices, rather I view Eleanor and him as unfortunate victims of their society. There are forces outside of themselves that have been working—no, have demanded—to put them together. A context wherein relationships themselves (and the notion of love) are regulated by social discourse and norms. And from this, one man screws up in a big way, while one woman's illusory happiness is taken away from her. If things would have been even a bit different, would such a thing even happen in the first place?

Frankly, I don't know. I am having a hard time with this. It's so easy to blame a few characters for the choices they make, and on the other hand it's also just as easy to simply lay it all on the bigger picture.

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

Spoiler:

"Be true to your heart, promises made be damned"?

Spoiler:

Interesting. This is probably outside the limits of this topic, but what if you reverse the question? "Keep all promises made, even though they go against your heart." Is that any better?

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

I apologize for my judgemental tone; I hope we've chatted enough in the past for you to recognize that I'm not just trying to be an asshole fanboy who didn't get what he want. Maybe I was a bit like that in the Hachikuro thread, not here though.

Heh, I have a feeling that I'm at odds with you when it comes to Honey and Clover, so let's not go there.

But seriously, no offense taken.

[Cal-Reflector]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Interesting. This is probably outside the limits of this topic, but what if you reverse the question? "Keep all promises made, even though they go against your heart." Is that any better?

I think so, in fact, the latter half is redundant, and the statement can be simplified to "Keep the promises you make." Understood, of course, that you are the one with the decision, and not someone else deciding for you or forcing you. Now that would make things alot easier, wouldn't it? All things taken into consideration, including complicated circumstances, societal expectations and honor and decency and human emotion, most would agree that we would like people to keep promises they make as a rule, and that the world would be a better place for it.

Promisese are made to be kept, and William is a good man, so I think he wasn't lying when he proposed, that he planned on marrying Eleanor, but... as you grow older, you learn that there are things that can't, and shouldn't be undone, cause people are going to be hurt, and since you're the one who started it, you should be the one to bear it.

My precious weekend has its mood all clouded over now, I feel like writing some angry Hans-Adelle sex as a way of putting these negative feelings to good use. *Flips Table*

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

My precious weekend has its mood all clouded over now, I feel like writing some angry Hans-Adelle sex as a way of putting these negative feelings to good use. *Flips Table*

Wait, weren't you planning on writing something for Black Lagoon? All I remember is that it was supposed to involve Balalaika and Rock... Or was that for Mushishi? Uhm, yeah...

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

Promisese are made to be kept, and William is a good man, so I think he wasn't lying when he proposed, that he planned on marrying Eleanor,...

Maybe it's just me, but while I think he isn't lying, I also feel that his heart isn't to up to it either. He seems desperately trying to move on from loneliness.

While we both see the wrong in what William has done, I see it from a different standpoint. You accuse him of not holding up to the promise, whereas I blame him for making it. In the end, that may just be a play on words playing on the same situation, but this is also the main reason why I reversed that question earlier.

[Pheonix2772]

To Phoenix2772: Thank you for the feedback. Personally, though I lean towards the conservative, I hold nothing against William for balking at England's two-tiered society. I loved his romance with Emma and squeed... well, rejoiced, when things looked up for them. Everything soured however when he proposed and then broke the engagement; I would have been just as outraged if Eleanor was a fisherman's daughter. Hence I don't see this transgression as related to the uchi-soto conflict. It is simply one human being betraying the love and trust of another.

In the Manga, society, Eleanor herself and later Monica, essentially forced themselves on William. I see his failure there as one of cowardice, not malicious intent. But I'm simply watching at this point. Like it or not, how the story ends has a lot to say about what happened in it (IOW, life is not a game of bean bag, and the ends may occasionally justify the means.) I had thought at one point during the Manga, Mori might actually have Eleanor off herself. At that point, yes, William's actions would have seemed even more heinous, eh?

But I am interested in it both for the story and what the story says about contemporary Japanese culture. Hence I am taking a phenomenological approach at this time. The post mortem will come, as it should, after I see the end.