[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 356 Discussion

[Waking_Dreamer]

The battle outcome was a draw but doesnt change the fact Kenpachi was holding back while Ichigo went full out.

The only one Ichigo defeated completely with minimum hax (in a full power battle) from SS was Renji.

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer

The battle outcome was a draw but doesnt change the fact Kenpachi was holding back while Ichigo went full out.

The only one Ichigo defeated completely with minimum hax (in a full power battle) from SS was Renji.

True, that is the only real win I can count from Ichigo.

[Zu Ra]

Just came across this fanart of Halibel Release, it was out last week itself . Its nicely done but a but bit Ecchi . This is one of those few fanarts which looks better than Kubo art itself ^__^

[Gin]

Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer

The battle outcome was a draw but doesnt change the fact Kenpachi was holding back while Ichigo went full out.

The only one Ichigo defeated completely with minimum hax (in a full power battle) from SS was Renji.

also that big gatekeeper

[ShinAkuma135]

that makes it a total of two. i don't think im going to count ulquiorra

[Gin]

Originally Posted by ShinAkuma135

that makes it a total of two. i don't think im going to count ulquiorra

what about the 3 VCs he beat the crap out of right before saving rukia?

[astrallionheart]

Originally Posted by kagato3

Neither have most of the captains barring Kenpachi and you seem to kinda forgeting that the said "college" is a military school. Or that inorder to become a captain a group of captians has to agree that you are up to the task.

Having trouble with euphemisms I see.

Not true, He seemed more the capable of takeing Gin on in SS and took no damage at all although Gin was going to force him to to protect Momo

He also had his classic "seized-with-shock" expression at the speed of Gin's strikes

Lupi did not own him any more then Po owned Komamura.

If you think Komamura getting punched while posing and a Hitsu whose released his bankai and engaged in battle are comparable situations then that only proves Hitsu's weakness.

So far the only ones that have are the old man, Azein and to a lesser extent Ken and Ichigo. So the lack of this isn't so much you're weak but your not insanely strong.

Both Gin and Byakuya have shown high levels of reaitsu, enough to momentarily paralyze VC-levels.

As for going Baikai as soon as he knows he is faceing Espada. He already knows that anything less is completely ineffective agaist #10 "the weakest" of them from his fight with Yami before he fought Lupi.

Not sure where you got the idea that "A strong captain uses his zanpaktoh as the last resort." but that is far from the case unless thier fighting style is not with their zanpaktoh such as Soifon or Byakuya, who is a kido fighter more then anything, the first thing they do is go for thier releases. As for going Bankai first thing he already knows that against Espada nothing short of bankai will be effective he already learned that when he fought Yami and unlike some of the idiots in the manga he's not going to wate time on something he knows will likely not work.

All the strong characters so far have gone through a checklist of lower level abilities before moving up. Hitsu releases his bankai right away. You say he releases because he knows he is facing an espada. What about the fights before? Was he confused and thought Shawlong was an espada?

[astrallionheart]

Originally Posted by kitten320

Zaraki is damn strong!
Ichigo wins only because of being main character and nothing more... Hell! He even got back from dead twice!

He didn't have eye patch against Ichigo and still lost.

There's more to that. When Noitora asked Kenpachi how he had cut through his hierro when he couldn't before, he responded to Noi that he just hit harder until he cut him, and he thanked him for helping him warm up.

The eyepatch is going all out, yes, but lets say you gather yourself up and try to jump as high as you can. Then jog for 10 minutes, and again, try to jump as high as you can. Let's say you are young NBA player. You'll probably jump 25-30 inches off the ground on your first attempt. On your second attempt you'll probably be close to 40. And to get to 30 on later attempts, you only need to make a half-assed effort.

Same goes for when Ken faced Ichigo...eyepatch off at that time was just jumping as hard as he could from a cold start.

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

Just came across this fanart of Halibel Release, it was out last week itself . Its nicely done but a but bit Ecchi . This is one of those few fanarts which looks better than Kubo art itself ^__^

I don't see any pictures

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by astrallionheart

Both Gin and Byakuya have shown high levels of reaitsu, enough to momentarily paralyze VC-levels.

I've forgotten. When did Gin ever paralyze anyone with his reiatsu? Aside from Rukia, who was freaked out by Gin's creepiness, I don't recall anyone being affected by his reiatsu. For that matter, I don't recall Bya ever paralyzing a VC with his reiatsu, his reiatsu was enough to seriously effect Ganju and Hanatoru but it only caused Renji to sweat a bit.

All the strong characters so far have gone through a checklist of lower level abilities before moving up. Hitsu releases his bankai right away. You say he releases because he knows he is facing an espada. What about the fights before? Was he confused and thought Shawlong was an espada?

Against Shawlong, 80% of Hitsugaya's strength had been limited. He used bankai to make up for the massive loss in power. He didn't use bankai immediately when Luppi invaded either, he only released after Luppi released. Also, along with Luppi was another Espada and an enemy who has the same strength level as an Espada so Hitsugaya wasn't looking at a walk through-the-park fight. And against Halibel, he didn't use bankai until Halibel decided to start fighting seriously.

Originally Posted by spyte

what about the 3 VCs he beat the crap out of right before saving rukia?

Also, Ikkaku.

[Scep]

All the strong characters so far have gone through a checklist of lower level abilities before moving up. Hitsu releases his bankai right away. You say he releases because he knows he is facing an espada. What about the fights before? Was he confused and thought Shawlong was an espada?

Uh, Ichigo was in bankai before he even started on his fight with ulquiorra?

If i can also remind you about shawlong's fight, the first scene of hitsugaya's bankai after his first clashes with shawlong was in a cliffhanger, and he was visibly exhausted. Meaning, the battle had already gone on for awhile. Or perhaps kubo should have skipped that and just shown all 3 battles from the start. Im sure some antifanboys over here need more things to bitch about anyway.

Examples aside, why would releasing without a obvious necessity be a sign of weakness? Halibel and Barragan, too, released without a obvious necessity, does that make them weak? On the other hand, byakuya took his time to release his bankai against zomari; look where that got him. One hand down, one leg crippled. When characters decide to release is just a dramatic plot device that kubo uses to drag on his fights or create his cliffhangers. Its bullshit to use it to infer power levels.

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by spyte

what about the 3 VCs he beat the crap out of right before saving rukia?

Simply owerpowered Ichigo.
I bet if he fought them again he would struggle.

Besides can you really call Omaeda, Isane and 1st squed VC fighters?

[Waking_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by astrallionheart

He also had his classic "seized-with-shock" expression at the speed of Gin's strikes

idk..that fight seemed pretty much to individual interpretation as to whether someone had an edge or not. Objectively that fight was even.

The "surprised look" on Gin's face at having his arm frozen is no different than the surprised look on Hitsu about Gins apparently fast strikes. I mean consider if Momo wasnt there...Hitsu had just dodge Gins point blank attack yet still had Gins frozen arm incapacitated...who would seem to have the edge then?

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Also, Ikkaku.

Well you wouldn't count Ikkaku since it was obvious he was holding back.

[WONDERMIKE]

Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer

Just wondering are stats in the databooks considered canon or a reliable source of info about the captains?

stats are canon, but they are not meant as a comparison between the captains

Originally Posted by spyte

Yeah but ichigo broke ken-chans sword

his mask under the kimono did

Originally Posted by spyte

Kenpachi past out right after ichigo but ichigos sword wasn't broken. Plus kenpachi even said that ichigo won

that moment Ken had no idea his sword was stopped by a hollow mask and must have thought it was Ichigo's body, Yoruichi's remarks about that fight make it clear Ichigo didn't win at all.. and don't forget Zaraki could have used Kendo, he just adopted to his opponents strength to make sure the fun lasts as long as possible like he always does

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer

The "surprised look" on Gin's face at having his arm frozen is no different than the surprised look on Hitsu about Gins apparently fast strikes. I mean consider if Momo wasnt there...Hitsu had just dodge Gins point blank attack yet still had Gins frozen arm incapacitated...who would seem to have the edge then?

That attack was definetly meant for Momo and not Hitsugaya.If he didn't aim for Momo,Gin would escape in a blink of an eye.

[Blaster]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Ok, here's my question:

I can understand why people are annoyed that Hitsugaya survived that last attack. What I want to know, is why people think Hitsugaya is being shown some kind of biased favoritism by being spared.

In a story where no good characters have died outside of flashbacks, how can anyone really say that Hitsugaya is being let off the hook because he is the most popular character? I guess Iba Testsuzaemon's still alive after being cero'd in the face because Kubo didn't want to disappoint the legion of Iba fans out there. The argument is quickly becoming a transparent way to cover up the eagerness to see Hitsugaya get immediately thrashed so the claims of how he's weak and useless can be validated.

Whenever Hitsugaya is shown struggling, people say he's weak as a kitten (nevermind the circumstances). Then whenever he shows any kind of fighting strength, those same people turn around and say he's been overpowered because Kubo's playing favorites. So he's weak and overpowered at the same time .



Yourichi and Byakuya both left shunpo after-images ("clones") that bled. Also somehow, the opponents couldn't feel that they were slicing through thin air Hell, the after-image Byakuya left even managed to talk somehow. No complaints.




Seems like that plot hole due to his love towards Zaraki rather than his love towards Ichigo. Plus Kenpachi used the eyepatch power-up and kendo power-up to win.




Yes, the are canon. But they don't really take into account all the captains's strengths like shikai or bankai. There are meant to give you an idea where each captain's strengths lie, not necessarily a pecking order of who's strongest and weakest.

I think it is useless to argue against the fact the dragonboy is being pimped. In all his battles, he get raped all over by the baddies and finally do one convenient move to finish the baddie that just raped him all over. He has shown no fighting capabilities at all except his one-hit KOs from out of nowhere probably due to his popularity. Even Ichigo doesn't get that kind of special treatment. Byakuya. Yoruichi. Zaraki. They don't get raped from the start till the end and comes out with something that 1-hit the opponents.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Blaster

I think it is useless to argue against the fact the dragonboy is being pimped. In all his battles, he get raped all over by the baddies and finally do one convenient move to finish the baddie that just raped him all over. He has shown no fighting capabilities at all except his one-hit KOs from out of nowhere probably due to his popularity. Even Ichigo doesn't get that kind of special treatment. Byakuya. Yoruichi. Zaraki. They don't get raped from the start till the end and comes out with something that 1-hit the opponents.

And by "all" his battles you mean the one battle vs Shawlong.

Hitsu never used bankai against Gin and never relied on a miraculous KO.

He was completely owned by Aizen. Let's see. Who's fought Aizen and didn't get their ass royally kicked?

Against Shawlong his power was limited. And yeah, Hitsugaya did KO him in one hit once the limit had been lifted. Guess what? Mastumoto and Renji did the same thing to the opponents who had previously been "raping" them. Those arrancar were no match for the shinigami without their limits.

vs. Luppi, Luppi managed an attack that stunned Hitsu and assumed he won. Hitsugaya surprised Luppi later with his own devastating attack. The rest of the fight was interrupted because Luppi and the others were called back to HM. That's a miraculous comeback? Well, Zaraki did the same thing to Noitora when he was knocked flat by Noi who also assume he won then turned his back to attack Yachiru.

Halibel, he fooled her with an illusion. Yourichi, Byakuya, Urahara, have all use similar techniques. But only with Hitsugaya is it considered a cheap trick due to popularity. And this fight isn't even over yet!

One thing I do agree with is that it's pretty much useless to argue. Hitsugaya is a character that's going to be hated because of his insane popularity and the love of cynicism of the internet. I don't think that he's one of the stronger captains, but I think the view that he's useless comes from overhype of the other captains' abilities (some of which we actually have yet to see really fight) and a desire to see him fail and then blame it on popularity when he succeeds.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I don't mind the fact that Hitsu-boya survived, or the fact he even managed to trick Halibel.

But a few things are out of place;

1) His mirror can apparently bleed for him? That ranks up there with Aizen's illusions when it comes to fooling people mid combat; although I'm glad Halibel managed to avoid the sneak-attack follow-up.

2) Why is he back in the fight? It has been clear most of the fight that he is outclassed, so why bring him back into the ring for anything other then plotkai-ing Halibel?

If he beats her it is rather inconsistent and silly, and if she beats him down anyway, there isn't much of a point to his return.

-----

I for one hope this doesn't become a case of plot convenience where Captain-shota's power over ice trumps Halibel's control over water, if anything her ability should trump his.

[Zu Ra]

♦ Tyrant of Skulls ♦

* Continues from the last chapter after Halibel cut Hitsugaya she turns to Yamamoto but before she could move something passes her head. Halibel dodges and is surprised to see Hitsugaya as the one who attacked her. Hitsugaya comments how he didn't expect her power to increase that much after the resurrection. Then he says, “Good thing I've prepared for this.”


* Halibel turns around to a spot she cuts Hitsugaya and sees a cut-figure of him; onlt difference is the entire sky is cracked like a smashed mirror. She looks again then realizes what she cut was a reflection from the ice-mirror Hitsugaya has created.“This trick only works once and I was hoping to use when it was more urgent.” Says Hitsugaya and then adds, “Do not underestimate shinigami’s powers…..”


* The scene changes to Soi Fong and Oomaeda. Soi Fong tries to attack Barragan by sneaking in from the back but the moment she’s about to hit him; she’s slowed down (like a film was played in slow motion mode). No matter what she does, this incident happens within a second before she could attack him. In the end, Barragan grabs her ankle and throws her to one of the houses. Soi Fong tries to figures out what is Barragan’s ability when Barragan laughs at her for unable to figure it out.


* When she stays silent, Barragan starts to comment on the espadas.“Each espada is in control of a certain theme of death. These ten themes are the major reasons why humans face death. Each espada has ability, ideas (way of thinking) and reasons to exist relates to the theme.”

* Right after that he moves to where Soi Fong is and places a hand on her left shoulder. Soi Fong quickly escapes him when Barragan says,“Just by a thought and a touch I can make your bones ‘age’.”Before Soi Fong could understand what he meant she sees her left arm is already broken.“You wouldn’t understand. Death is like this. From this second onward until the end of a fight, your brain will not understand anything.” Then he says his release,“Deteriorate, Arrogante.”

Note : Since the word for Barragan is pretty lose in the spoiler, I guess it could mean 'decay' as well.

Credits : Annie / Drake

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

I don't mind the fact that Hitsu-boya survived, or the fact he even managed to trick Halibel.

But a few things are out of place;

1) His mirror can apparently bleed for him? That ranks up there with Aizen's illusions when it comes to fooling people mid combat; although I'm glad Halibel managed to avoid the sneak-attack follow-up.

2) Why is he back in the fight? It has been clear most of the fight that he is outclassed, so why bring him back into the ring for anything other then plotkai-ing Halibel?

If he beats her it is rather inconsistent and silly, and if she beats him down anyway, there isn't much of a point to his return.

-----

I for one hope this doesn't become a case of plot convenience where Captain-shota's power over ice trumps Halibel's control over water, if anything her ability should trump his.

couldnt agree with ya more