Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Demi.

If characters being shafted is the main complaint, then you should be able to enjoy the movie as long as you're a Nanoha, Fate, Hayate, or Reinforce fan. Pretty darn sure Vita got a good amount of screentime as well. Same goes to Shamal and Zafira, if we're talking proportionally to the series. To me it seems like, you won't enjoy the movie, unless you are a fan of one or more of the main characters. If you're only in it for side characters, you will be sorely disappointed. That's IF the problem you have with the movie is a character you're a fan of getting shafted. Because the characters I mentioned were not shafted. Sorry, it didn't happen. At least not proportionally to the screen time they got in the series.

Are you guys seriously going to make me watch the whole movie again just to count the seconds Fate was on the screen and the seconds Nanoha was on the screen? If it will put things to rest, I'm willing to do it.

Now did Hayate or Reinforce get more screentime then Nanoha or Fate in the movie? Of course not, but Hayate had like 1/4th the screentime in the series. Reinforce probably had 1/20th...Yet she gained so much screen time in this movie, that I could literally consider her a main character. She by far and wide, benefited the most from the film.

You aren't listening, Demi. Try: Chrono and Lindy, aka the family who has a very sad connection to the primary antagonist in the movie, that is never really confronted or addressed. The two never change or develop as a result. Wouldn't you at least agree those two got shafted, when they should have gotten more focus?

Originally Posted by Demi.

If you want the franchise to succeed, then you'd be a fool to want reduced screen time for the more popular characters or pairing. If you just want to enjoy the franchise until it inevitably burns itself out, that's another matter.

You know what? I challenge this assumption. That somehow, if you remove a few scenes from this movie of Fate or NanoFate, that somehow the franchise will fail. I hate to say this, but that is a bit of the ego talking. Those fans are fanatics, and will lap up anything. That's why, as a writer, you can toss little bits out here and there, but you don't cater to them exclusively, because they'll continue to buy no matter what. Instead, if you want your franchise to grow, you focus on the plot and all the characters. That way, new people watch and go: "Hmm, yeah, he/she did a good job with this movie. I could really relate to all the characters affected by the plot" and then become fans as they seek out your other works.

What will kill the franchise? Pandering to fanatics in case where it is detrimental to the story. People will leave because of that, leaving you *only* your fanatics, which are always a much smaller subset of your fanbase.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You aren't listening, Demi. Try: Chrono and Lindy, aka the family who has a very sad connection to the primary antagonist in the movie, that is never really confronted or addressed. The two never change or develop as a result. Wouldn't you at least agree those two got shafted, when they should have gotten more focus?

I listened perfectly. They're minor characters, and I said the minor characters did in-fact get shafted. But the entirety of the blame is being thrown at Fate and NanoFate. And that is why I'm going to figure out who the main culprit for that was, because I'm pretty confident this is a baseless assumption.

You know what? I challenge this assumption. That somehow, if you remove a few scenes from this movie of Fate or NanoFate, that somehow the franchise will fail. I hate to say this, but that is a bit of the ego talking. Those fans are fanatics, and will lap up anything. That's why, as a writer, you can toss little bits out here and there, but you don't cater to them exclusively, because they'll continue to buy no matter what. Instead, if you want your franchise to grow, you focus on the plot and all the characters. That way, new people watch and go: "Hmm, yeah, he/she did a good job with this movie. I could really relate to all the characters affected by the plot" and then become fans as they seek out your other works.

What will kill the franchise? Pandering to fanatics in case where it is detrimental to the story. People will leave because of that, leaving you *only* your fanatics, which are always a much smaller subset of your fanbase.

Any franchise that lasts this long is inevitably going to turn into a fanbase of fanatics. All of the major characters had a sizable portion of screentime. You're insinuating that it would be best to remove some of the fan favorite scenes from the movie to make way for the development of two minor characters. A critic would say this is beneficial to the flow of the story, but it's not a good marketing scheme. Interesting fact, they made more money off the merchandise they were selling at the theater, then the money they made from selling the tickets. To add on to that, they had a benefits program going that if you watched the movie two times you get a colored paper of either Nanoha/Fate/Hayate (your choice) and if you watch it three times, you get a filmstrip. Some of the more popular filmstrips have went for over a thousand dollars. The most expensive one went for a whopping 5,000. Point being? Not everyone who went to see the movie is a fanatic, but how much money do you think Tsuzuki profits off of them? They're the ones purchasing the merchandise, they're the ones watching the movie dozens upon dozens of times.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Demi.

I listened perfectly. They're minor characters, and I said the minor characters did in-fact get shafted. But the entirety of the blame is being thrown at Fate and NanoFate. And that is why I'm going to figure out who the main culprit for that was, because I'm pretty confident this is a baseless assumption.

Okay, if you agree they got shafted, and you want to take NanoFate and Fate scenes off the table... what would you cut to add enough to them to develop them? I've already said what I would cut (one or two of the NanoFate scenes, and at least half the lotus eater to do my Chrono dream idea). Or would you lengthen the movie by 10 mins or so to add enough scenes to develop Lindy and Chrono? And what would you do with the characters with the screentime you allot for yourself?

On further thinking, I'd probably add a scene at the end, removing the Leti/Lindy talk, in favor of a more silent scene of Lindy and Chrono kneeling before Clyde's grave, eyes closed with incense burning. Fate and Arf can be standing in the background, observing. And perhaps a few tears leak out of CHrono's eyes, while Lindy looks up and gestures Fate and Arf over, who gingerly and hesitantly kneel down, bow their heads, and clasp their hands together.

Now, how does that sound to everyone?

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Okay, if you agree they got shafted, and you want to take NanoFate and Fate scenes off the table... what would you cut to add enough to them to develop them? I've already said what I would cut (one or two of the NanoFate scenes, and at least half the lotus eater to do my Chrono dream idea). Or would you lengthen the movie by 10 mins or so to add enough scenes to develop Lindy and Chrono? And what would you do with the characters with the screentime you allot for yourself?

On further thinking, I'd probably add a scene at the end, removing the Leti/Lindy talk, in favor of a more silent scene of Lindy and Chrono kneeling before Clyde's grave, eyes closed with incense burning. Fate and Arf can be standing in the background, observing. And perhaps a few tears leak out of CHrono's eyes, while Lindy looks up and gestures Fate and Arf over, who gingerly and hesitantly kneel down, bow their heads, and clasp their hands together.

Now, how does that sound to everyone?

It's really not even that. I feel Fate got her time majorly cut in the battle department, this was what enabled her to keep her dream scene, and her short talk with Lindy. And I feel that her dream is the reason people think she's a screen time hog, yet they very clearly overlook what was cut from her screen time to make room for it. Do you think all of time Nanoha had in flight and fight did not amount to what Fate had in character exposition?

As for what to remove, I honestly don't know. Maybe remove a tiny bit from every main, except Hayate. That could possibly be enough. I don't even know how you can remove the NanoFate reunion scene because they need to meet some way. The series version would take considerably longer to do. I'd cut the transformation scenes by half. That's two minutes there. You could cut Fate going to school I guess...I really don't feel NanoFate had significant time together. Just enough to please the fans, not enough to be considered over-abundant.

You know what? I challenge this assumption. That somehow, if you remove a few scenes from this movie of Fate or NanoFate, that somehow the franchise will fail. I hate to say this, but that is a bit of the ego talking. Those fans are fanatics, and will lap up anything. That's why, as a writer, you can toss little bits out here and there, but you don't cater to them exclusively, because they'll continue to buy no matter what. Instead, if you want your franchise to grow, you focus on the plot and all the characters. That way, new people watch and go: "Hmm, yeah, he/she did a good job with this movie. I could really relate to all the characters affected by the plot" and then become fans as they seek out your other works.

What will kill the franchise? Pandering to fanatics in case where it is detrimental to the story. People will leave because of that, leaving you *only* your fanatics, which are always a much smaller subset of your fanbase.

Any franchise that lasts this long is inevitably going to turn into a fanbase of fanatics. All of the major characters had a sizable portion of screentime. You're insinuating that it would be best to remove some of the fan favorite scenes from the movie to make way for the development of two minor characters. A critic would say this is beneficial to the flow of the story, but it's not a good marketing scheme. Interesting fact, they made more money off the merchandise they were selling at the theater, then the money they made from selling the tickets. To add on to that, they had a benefits program going that if you watched the movie two times you get a colored paper of either Nanoha/Fate/Hayate (your choice) and if you watch it three times, you get a filmstrip. Some of the more popular filmstrips have went for over a thousand dollars. The most expensive one went for a whopping 5,000. Point being? Not everyone who went to see the movie is a fanatic, but how much money do you think Tsuzuki profits off of them? They're the ones purchasing the merchandise, they're the ones watching the movie dozens upon dozens of times.

And to note, these are the five favorite scenes of the movie, based on a poll taken at the movies:


Cookie if you can figure them all out based on a single image.

[Keroko]

Demi makes a fair point, we shouldn't forget that these movies were pure fanservice to begin with. There are very little reasons to make a movie of an existing series other than profit, and you get the most profit by focusing on the characters that are most popular.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Demi

You could cut Fate going to school I guess...I really don't feel NanoFate had significant time together. Just enough to please the fans, not enough to be considered over-abundant.

So you'd cut a Fate scene... I'm impressed! That school scene was one I'd cut, too. Nice for Fate, unimportant to the plot. And it went nowhere. But now you begin to understand what it takes to be an editor, to look critically and objectively at a piece, and determine what gets the axe.

But I will agree that, timewise, Nanofate probably didn't have much; maybe 5 or 10 mins most. Problem is, I can do Lindy/Chrono development with 5 mins, easy. Well, taking half the dream sequence, too. Almost might be better to save NanoFate and Fate development for the original 3rd movie, where there are no expectations.

A critic would say this is beneficial to the flow of the story, but it's not a good marketing scheme. Interesting fact, they made more money off the merchandise they were selling at the theater, then the money they made from selling the tickets. To add on to that, they had a benefits program going that if you watched the movie two times you get a colored paper of either Nanoha/Fate/Hayate (your choice) and if you watch it three times, you get a filmstrip. Some of the more popular filmstrips have went for over a thousand dollars. The most expensive one went for a whopping 5,000. Point being? Not everyone who went to see the movie is a fanatic, but how much money do you think Tsuzuki profits off of them? They're the ones purchasing the merchandise, they're the ones watching the movie dozens upon dozens of times.

My point exactly... they'll snap up merch regardless. Toss them a bone every once and awhile, but they'll still put out. Hey, I'll fully admit this is an opinion, but so is the idea that you HAVE to pander in order to keep a franchise alive. I'll grant that there is something to this, but not to the excess in this movie. I'm merely challenging the notion. If you cut a couple of the Fate scenes and an NF scene or two, your income would be no worse for the wear. Nanoha and Fate would still have enough screentime to please the fanatics.

[Akiyoshi]

It's not only about screentime but alsi how much characters can do with such time as well. You said Shamal and Vita but Shamal didn't get to do anything that developes her character while Vita barely managed to do that (probably brcause she's a loli and the only marketable Wolkenritter -_-).

I generally doesn't problems with NanoFate or Fate in general ...except when it gets in the way of the plot but i also get what Keroko said. The Wolkenritter are doomed to be extras within their own freaking movie because they're not popular or yuri enough to please fans.

Movie industry is a very biased bussines.

On the other han i'm with Nanya. I wouldn't be supossed to be figuring out how is this movie good. I shoul be able to enjoy it from the get go and that feel quite dissapointing.

Oh yeah, the Wolks didn't get a henshin sequence and considering this will be the last movie (and probably the last piece of Nanoha media) where they'll get any sense of plot significance/focus i can consider the dream of them finally getting a decent transformation sequence already lost forever. Realizing that is quite sad. Thanks Tsuzuki, thanks NanoFate -_-

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

The Wolkenritter are doomed to be extras within their own freaking movie because they're not popular or yuri enough to please fans.

'cept the Wolkenritter don't really have a lack of screentime or involvment. Zafira a bit, suffering from the curse of being a man in a mahou shoujo as he is, but the rest had plenty.

Which reminds me, I recall seeing some criticism regarding Shamal going flashbang instead of Summon the Thunder, but that actually makes sense. In the anime, Shamal only summoned the thunder at the suggestion of the twins. Shamal herself did not want to use the book. Now we have Shamal showing initiative of her own and showing just a bit more of what a support mage can do beyond healing and shielding.

[bhl88]

^ Escaping hard. Flashbang, no damage.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You know what? I challenge this assumption. That somehow, if you remove a few scenes from this movie of Fate or NanoFate, that somehow the franchise will fail.

Erf. If that really were to happen, that the franchise would fail just because a few Fate/NanoFate scenes were cut from a movie, then the franchise would've already reached the point of no return.

[JINNSK]

Let me write about the character commentary.Basically they reffer to the movie and often digresses.I felt it get more joke/funny elements than the 1st movie.I summarized newly information about magic/character settings but skipped through the unimportant chats and magic color analyze.I don't say they are canon.Regard them as supplemental information to enjoy the Nanoha franchise.

Spoiler for for space:

chapter 1(Subaru,Teana)
nothing

chapter 2(Subaru,Teana)
nothing

chapter 3(Vivio,Nanoha,Fate,Rio,Corona,Einhart)
nothing

chapter 4(Vivio,Nanoha,Fate,Rio,Corona,Einhart)
Nanoha and Fate used a Japanese-Midchilda language translation software made by Amy to correspond with each other.

chapter 5(Rio,Corona,Subaru,Miura,Lutecia,Shamal,Signum,Vi ta,Zafila)
nothing

chapter 6(Signum,Shamal,Miura,Zafila,Lutecia,Vita)
nothing

chapter 7(Lutecia,Teana,Vita,Signum,Miura,Agito,Reinforce zwei,Hayate)
Hayate's house is currently rented to one family.

chapter 8(Agito,Reinforce zwei,Hayate)
Mariel wanted to become enforcer in the first place.

chapter 9(Erio,Caro,Yuuno,Chrono)
Chrono sometimes asks Yuuno to mock battle.But Yuuno declines half of the requests.

chapter 10(Erio,Caro,Yuuno,Chrono)
nothing

chapter 11(Vivio,Nanoha,Fate,Rio,Corona,Einhart)
nothing

chapter 12(Vivio,Nanoha,Fate,Rio,Corona,Einhart)
nothing

chapter 13(Vivio,Nanoha,Fate,Rio,Corona,Einhart,Miura,Lute cia,Shamal,Signum,Vita,Zafila)
Flashbang magic is forbidden by DSAA regulation.

chapter 14(Miura,Lutecia,Shamal,Signum,Vita,Zafila,Agito,R einforce zwei,Hayate)
Reinforce zwei and Agito grow up and become adult in the future.

chapter 15(Miura,Lutecia,Shamal,Signum,Vita,Zafila,Agito,R einforce zwei,Hayate)
nothing

chapter 16(Miura,Lutecia,Shamal,Signum,Vita,Zafila,Agito,R einforce zwei,Hayate,Subaru)
nothing

chapter 17(Erio,Caro,Yuuno,Chrono)
Formerly Admiral Clyde had been an enforcer.

chapter 18(Subaru,Teana,Vivio,Nanoha,Fate,Rio,Corona,Einha rt,Hayate,Agito,Reinforce zwei,Miura)
Nanoha's hospitalization was for about 2 months.
Nanoha and Fate's cartridges were charged up at the maintainance section of the bureau.

chapter 19(Erio,Caro,Yuuno,Chrono)
Librarian Yuuno is sometimes sick for fieldwork.

chapter 20(Hayate,Nanoha,Fate,Vivio,Rio,Corona,Einhart,Lut ecia,Subaru,Teana)
nothing

chapter 21(Erio,Caro,Lutecia,Signum,Vita,Nanoha,Shamal,Fat e,Vivio,Rio,Corona,Einhart)
nothing

chapter 22(Erio,Caro,Lutecia,Signum,Vita,Nanoha,Shamal,Fat e,Vivio,Rio,Corona,Einhart)
nothing

chapter 23(Subaru,Teana,Nanoha,Fate,Reinforce zwei,Agito)
nothing

chapter 25(Subaru,Teana,Fate,Vivio,Rio,Corona,Erio,Caro,Ei nhart,Signum,Vita,Reinforce zwei,Agito)
nothing

chapter 26(Fate,Vivio,Rio.Corona,Erio,Caro)
Corona's elder sister is 10 years older than her.

chapter 27(Lutecia,Miura,Vivio,Rio,Corona,Einhart,Erio,Car o,Reinforce zwei,Agito)
nothing

chapter 28(Nanoha,Fate,Hayate,Subaru,Teana,Vivio,Rio,Coron a,Einhart,Miura)
nothing

chapter 29(Hayate,Reinforce zwei,Agito,Miura,Lutecia)
nothing

chapter 30(Hayate,Vita,Signum,Shamal,Zafila,Miura,Lutecia, Reinforce zwei,Agito)
nothing

chapter 31(Subaru,Teana,Chrono,Yuuno)
nothing

chapter 32(All casts)
nothing

chapter 33(Vita,Signum,Shamal,Zafila,Miura,Lutecia)
nothing

chapter 34(Vita,Signum,Shamal,Zafila,Miura,Lutecia,Agito,R einforce zwei,Subaru,Teana,Nanoha,Fate,Hayate)
Reinforce could use Laevatein and Graf Eisen as well as its owner.In that case,the device's color changed into black and violet.

chapter 35(Subaru,Teana,Vivio,Rio,Corona,Einhart,Erio,Caro ,Reinforce zwei,Agito,Lutecia,Miura)
nothing

chapter 36(All casts)
nothing

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Demi.

Cookies for a single look

Arisa hugging Fate and bidding her good bye as she goes to her friends.
Nanoha's about to Starlight Breaker Natchwal
Hayate crying that Reinforce shouldn't leave her.
Nanoha's Drive Ignition Excellion Mode Strike Flame
Fate's transformation scene XD (with the upgrade)

[krisslanza]

The more I read this discussion, the more I'm not sure we as a group really know what we wanted in a movie.

To some of you, the only way the movie would be great if it was basically A's re-done as a movie - which would make it roughly 6 hours long, give or take, which would make it even longer then a single Lord of the Rings movie. I don't think many people could sit in a theater for 6 hours

Alternatively, it would mean splitting the movie in half and having two three-hour length movies, but that's still pretty crazy (I can't think of any actual theatrical released movies that were three hours in length)

Then on another hand, we have a big argument going on about plot and characterization. In that characterization seems to be unneeded fluff in a movie, and it should basically axe all of that and just focus on plot. Which I think would make a pretty bland, boring movie if it was basically just advancing plot point to plot point forever. On the other side of the coin, we have wanting MORE, but that kind of falls into a time constraint issue.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

The more I read this discussion, the more I'm not sure we as a group really know what we wanted in a movie.

To some of you, the only way the movie would be great if it was basically A's re-done as a movie - which would make it roughly 6 hours long, give or take, which would make it even longer then a single Lord of the Rings movie. I don't think many people could sit in a theater for 6 hours

Alternatively, it would mean splitting the movie in half and having two three-hour length movies, but that's still pretty crazy (I can't think of any actual theatrical released movies that were three hours in length)

Then on another hand, we have a big argument going on about plot and characterization. In that characterization seems to be unneeded fluff in a movie, and it should basically axe all of that and just focus on plot. Which I think would make a pretty bland, boring movie if it was basically just advancing plot point to plot point forever. On the other side of the coin, we have wanting MORE, but that kind of falls into a time constraint issue.

Then we have (modify the scenes that aren't needed)

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

The more I read this discussion, the more I'm not sure we as a group really know what we wanted in a movie.

Then let me boil it down to a preference for which characters get developed. On one side, you have a preference for 1 or 2 characters. On the other, you have a preference for more, especially ones that have a bigger connection to the plot.

Let me state another difference. Nanoha is my favorite character, but I recognize that she didn't need much development here. Maybe just her reaction and decision to tell her friends and family about her magic. It could have made a nice contribution to her character if she grappled with the decision, like Fate grappled with her mommy issues. But I at least recognize it wasn't needed in the context of this movie. Others believe that other characters deserve to suffer for their own particular favorite.

And no, it would be easy to keep this movie to 2.5 hours and still have the necessary character and plot development. And still make about the same amount of money.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

Alternatively, it would mean splitting the movie in half and having two three-hour length movies, but that's still pretty crazy (I can't think of any actual theatrical released movies that were three hours in lenght).

Why not? Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann did an amazingly splendid job adapting a 20+ episode series within a movie separated im two parts, instead of flat out showing incomplete scenes they rewrote and tied up the plot in a way that made justice to about ALL the cast. And we're talking about a vast vastly bigger than the one of A's.

It can be done and i can be done well. Tsuzuki simply choose not to o_o.

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Why not? Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann did an amazingly splendid job adapting a 20+ episode series within a movie separated im two parts, instead of flat out showing incomplete scenes they rewrote and tied up the plot in a way that made justice to about ALL the cast. And we're talking about a vast vastly bigger than the one of A's.

It can be done and i can be done well. Tsuzuki simply choose not to o_o.

Well for one, Gurren Lagann is, as you already said, a lot longer. Madoka was as long as A's, and they opted to split it in two - they still ended up having to cut out some bits of the series I feel were important.

I guess for Nanoha, they didn't want to make two movies, it'd kinda ruin the flow of the "Movie 3rd" being "A's Part 2" I guess as well.

EDIT:
But hey, Tsuzuki at least isn't whoever thought to make that Tales of Phantasia OVA. Sure, let's just turn a 40+ hour game into like, an hour long OVA episode.

[Akiyoshi]

LOL, firtunately i didn-t played that game.

That reminds me of people complaining about Persona 4 anime being lame even when i found it to be a pretty cool series xDU

[bhl88]

I knew you'd like it xD

[Archon_Wing]

Lol, speaking of the Madoka movies, I think it'll be a nice comparison. TBH, I kinda stayed away from them because they seemed to be a pretty blatant money grab to me (recap/re imagining so early after a series?)

I admit I am a bit cynical on the issue which lowers my expectations. It is easier to rehash than to create, and when it's in an industry that sometimes offers a subpar job and presents the real version on bluray (This is why I often groan at anything Shaft) , or to promise tits on bluray, you tend to get disgusted a bit. Coincidentally, I was pretty annoyed at To Love Ru Darkness for this, which ironically also contains a very spotlight stealing blond girl that has usurped that franchise. Certainly the other side of the ocean is no better either. But on the other hand, it does give me hope that Seven Arcs at least tries to change things up, regardless of me liking it or not.

And splitting the A's into 2 movies just means more money. :/ Though I have a feeling the same basic errors would pop up