Is anime a media that is particularly prone to objectify women?

[Nightbat®]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

To me, as I said before, anime is a mirror of society, in addition to being a creative outlet that sometimes explores things wider society can't easily explore on its face. So to me, in addition to government working to address the deeper societal problems, the artistic/creative industries need to continue to find ways to allow new and diverse voices to express themselves in the medium.

That mirror is a very true statement
I fail to see how -boys that want to see scantily clad girls with large boobs-
would watch anime without them
And you can't expect to leave out the scantily clad girls with large boobs, since it would
seem selfdestructive not taking target viewers into account
Especially in today's economic situation, you're gonna try to sell things that surely will make money

Now I find it odd we should educate those boys in not wanting to see scantily clad girls with large boobs
Unless in vitro fertilization is considered a necessity for creating a Utopia
But that's a whole other topic

[GreyZone]

[mod edit: derail paragraph removed]

As for the topic itself I already said that I consider most works that seem to objectify women to merely have an incompetent writer (=bad writing) when it comes to write women or characters in general. Let's be honest. Take to-love-ru for example, which is what I'd consider to be the manga with the worst written characters out of all harem series that I know. That series seems to look like it was written in a way that the "Ecchi gag of the week" was made, and then the characters were written to fit that gag, which is to say is usually almost always the same thing, like Rito tripping and an "Ecchi situation" followed by the "violent retribution for accidental infraction" happening. If people consider such a thing to be "objetification of women", I would understand where they are coming from. However does that mean that the protagonist, in this example Rito, is NOT "objectified"? But he is. What is the protagonist in many such harem series anyway? Would you dare to claim that he is not "objectified" as a self-insert character who got many "objectified" women running after him for literally no reason at all?

I think if you consider the female cast to be "objectified" then I say the male MC/male cast is "objectified" as well in most cases, just in a different way. The important thing is that the women are usually not discriminated against, if anything the male MC of harem series usually gets much more treated like an object, imo. So I don't think the authors of such series are being sexist, but rather either just write what seems to be "in" for horny male teenagers these days, or they simply just don't know how to write their characters well, because they lack the necessary experience or talent.

[Nightbat®]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

.I think if you consider the female cast to be "objectified" then I say the male MC/male cast is "objectified" as well in most cases, just in a different way

Indeed
And why isn't anyone complaing about the clear physical violence the MC has to endure for the mistake that was made?
Because he's a man and as such can only do terrible things

Double standards,.. gotta love them


Anime is escapism, there is nothing wrong with escapism as long as you don't let it cloud your judgement

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I think if you consider the female cast to be "objectified" then I say the male MC/male cast is "objectified" as well in most cases, just in a different way. The important thing is that the women are usually not discriminated against, if anything the male MC of harem series usually gets much more treated like an object, imo. So I don't think the authors of such series are being sexist, but rather either just write what seems to be "in" for horny male teenagers these days, or they simply just don't know how to write their characters well, because they lack the necessary experience or talent.

The female characters in the story are generally exposed to situations that result in them being exposed, embarrassed, groped, and otherwise put on display in sexually provocative ways for the audience. Meanwhile, Rito is typically the benefactor of all that happens; the "bad" things that happen to him usually involve "unwanted" contact or exposure to naked girls. His "karma" is only that he'll never get anywhere in his romantic pursuits despite it all because he's a "lucky sukebe", and it resets the story for next week (or in case of mini-arcs, after the next arc). It literally is "an ecchi joke a week". The predominant time that anything bad happens to Rito is, with no small touch of irony, the times when he gets transformed into a girl and thus becomes a sex symbol in the story.

But even all that said... without exactly wanting to defend it, it's hard for me to level too much serious criticism at To Love-Ru about this because it's so obvious about what it does. It's as much a mirror of the teenage male perverted fantasy as anything else, and its entire raison-d'être is to push the line of what they can get away with. Maybe you can argue that it encourages young men to view women as sex objects and become adjusted to images of them in sexual situations... but I think even most teenage boys are attentive enough to tell that it's too absurd to be real or realistic. Much of the cast consists literally of aliens, and the fact that they don't conform to normal human standards is a constant running gag.

And actually, I wouldn't even say that To Love-Ru is bad or the author has a lack of experience or talent. He knows exactly what he's trying to do, and manages to succeed where many other copy-cats fail because he's pretty good at delivering on the promise of his work and keeping the audience engaged. Just enough characterization to be engaging, but just enough stereotypes to always result in an ecchi gag or misunderstanding. It's not necessarily exactly praise-worthy, but at the same time I don't know that it's "corrupting the minds of our youth" any more than anything else by being so obviously farcical.

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

Indeed
And why isn't anyone complaing about the clear physical violence the MC has to endure for the mistake that was made?
Because he's a man and as such can only do terrible things

Double standards,.. gotta love them

Because no matter how much "physical violence" he endures, in the next frame he's basically fine. It's comic violence like the Road Runner. It's a way of avenging the loss of propriety, but just resets to the status quo. Ultimately, nearly everyone in the audience is supposed to feel that the protagonist got the better end of the deal, but if not him, then we in the audience certainly got it even better (because we got a good view and didn't get slapped/punched). You could even argue that it's because he got "hit by a girl" that it didn't really hurt, even if he went flying in an insanely exaggerated way. Fights between boys often get bloody, but (arguably) a girl can only hit a boy for laughs.

So anyway, I think calling this particular trait evidence of a double-standard isn't really looking all that deeply at what's going on.


(But, full disclaimer in case it isn't clear, I've watched and collected the To Love-Ru anime, and will probably watch the next season, so my being aware of these issues and flaws doesn't necessarily mean I abstain from all content in protest. But at the same time, I try to see it for what it is, and consider what, if anything, the author is trying to say by it. In the case of an obvious comedy like this, I wouldn't usually look to the obvious as being signs of the author's true feelings, but rather to the more subtle signs that are less loudly-advertised.)

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Because no matter how much "physical violence" he endures, in the next frame he's basically fine. It's comic violence like the Road Runner. It's a way of avenging the loss of propriety, but just resets to the status quo. Ultimately, nearly everyone in the audience is supposed to feel that the protagonist got the better end of the deal, but if not him, then we in the audience certainly got it even better (because we got a good view and didn't get slapped/punched). You could even argue that it's because he got "hit by a girl" that it didn't really hurt, even if he went flying in an insanely exaggerated way. Fights between boys often get bloody, but (arguably) a girl can only hit a boy for laughs.

So anyway, I think calling this particular trait evidence of a double-standard isn't really looking all that deeply at what's going on.

Even without the comedy part, aren't guys are always target to demonstrate one's power, especially when it's a female character?

I means it will be really difficult to find a screen where a girl beat up 10 girls or so just to show her strength/ fitness/ magical power/ intelligence. Guys beat up 10 girls just to show his immense power? Let's be honest, it's unthinkable, and that guy should be burnt at the stake for that (in my opinion of course)

Anime is not the only one guilty of this through. Hollywood movies also. But just like throwing in female character in suggestive positions in the background to sell their sexual features and show their helplessness when certain incident breakout, having muscles guys jumped out and get his ass kicked in 1-2 seconds flat... should not be painted under gender discrimination.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Even without the comedy part, aren't guys are always target to demonstrate one's power, especially when it's a female character?

I means it will be really difficult to find a screen where a girl beat up 10 girls or so just to show her strength/ fitness/ magical power/ intelligence. Guys beat up 10 girls just to show his immense power? Let's be honest, it's unthinkable, and that guy should be burnt at the stake for that (in my opinion of course)

It's obviously all in all how you do it. If a person beat up 10 other people to show how strong they were, regardless of gender, that would probably make the most sense. If there's a good reason in the story universe for the portrayal than it might be fine, but if it's just a lazy "because men are strong and women are weak -- except this one!" it's still a bit banal. It's like we're cave-dwellers or something.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Anime is not the only one guilty of this through. Hollywood movies also. But just like throwing in female character in suggestive positions in the background to sell their sexual features and show their helplessness when certain incident breakout, having muscles guys jumped out and get his ass kicked in 1-2 seconds flat... should not be painted under gender discrimination.

Well, both are stupid, overly-stereotypical portrayals. But I still think it's a bit insidious how you're trying to argue that they're exactly the same. You're much more likely to have a movie where all the women in the movie are like the former, but there are some men like the latter in addition to the star male protagonist. Of course, both portrayals conspire (poorly) to make the male star look powerful and desirable (which is a whole other stereotype...).


Anecdotally, we were watching a bunch of action movies on the Women's Network here the other day, and mocking them the entire time for how completely idiotic and stereotypical the treatment of the women in the movies were. We couldn't figure out what possessed them to show those particular movies on the Women's Network at all (not because women don't like action movies -- sure they do -- but why movies with such horrible female characters in them when there are other much better ones to choose from?). Perhaps it was social commentary...? ^^;

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Because no matter how much "physical violence" he endures, in the next frame he's basically fine. It's comic violence like the Road Runner. It's a way of avenging the loss of propriety, but just resets to the status quo. Ultimately, nearly everyone in the audience is supposed to feel that the protagonist got the better end of the deal, but if not him, then we in the audience certainly got it even better (because we got a good view and didn't get slapped/punched). You could even argue that it's because he got "hit by a girl" that it didn't really hurt, even if he went flying in an insanely exaggerated way. Fights between boys often get bloody, but (arguably) a girl can only hit a boy for laughs.

Bolded part is very dangerous though, as that reasoning only works for those who actually believe in this reasoning. Others, if anything, consider the bolded part to be the actual sexist thing out of it all. It don't like it because it not only becomes an overused plot device, but it also turns the male MC into an "accident robot" that will trigger again and again the "do ecchi accident, then get punished" and usually in ways that have been seen thousands of times already.

Didn't you notice that recently a lot of people come to hate the type of character Rito represents? I'd say that factor is one of the reasons why many people started to look at the reincarnation/word transfer Web Novels as of late. Those MCs are not in an eternal stalemate with their harem that just gets teased endlessly and the MC is also not constantly being toyed around by his harem in those stories, which sounds like quite the opposite to the to-love-ru'sque harem series style. People have become sick of the type of protagonist that maintains the eternal avatar of stalemates by getting into accidents and be the punching bag of their harem, as well as those where the MC is weak and just lets his harem do the fights. For me personally, as well as quite a few other people the fact, that the to-love-ru style has rather shallow characters that don't progress become boring and uninteresting at a very fast pace, is also another aspect that makes me lose interest in that type of series.


And I can see the connection in the writing. If the writing is good, there don't seem to be any problems of "objectification" at all.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, both are stupid, overly-stereotypical portrayals. But I still think it's a bit insidious how you're trying to argue that they're exactly the same. You're much more likely to have a movie where all the women in the movie are like the former, but there are some men like the latter in addition to the star male protagonist. Of course, both portrayals conspire (poorly) to make the male star look powerful and desirable (which is a whole other stereotype...).


Anecdotally, we were watching a bunch of action movies on the Women's Network here the other day, and mocking them the entire time for how completely idiotic and stereotypical the treatment of the women in the movies were. We couldn't figure out what possessed them to show those particular movies on the Women's Network at all (not because women don't like action movies -- sure they do -- but why movies with such horrible female characters in them when there are other much better ones to choose from?). Perhaps it was social commentary...? ^^;

I'm not saying that they are the same through. Maybe both are as insignificant when it comes to reinforce a gender stereotype? As in we don't perceive real women as sexual damsel-in-distress that needed to be saved based on what showed on screen, just like we don't perceive guys as muscular blockhead who deserve a beating. At least i hope you don't.

My belief on the topic is simple through. I believe media objectification always exist. But i believe it reflects the society norm and sometime the social culture, rather than influenced it. And i don't believe it alone could influence one behavior in any kind. At least there is yet any valid study showing this


What do you think about Bayonetta as a female character then? If you already played the game?

[Nightbat®]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Because no matter how much "physical violence" he endures, in the next frame he's basically fine. It's comic violence like the Road Runner. It's a way of avenging the loss of propriety, but just resets to the status quo. Ultimately, nearly everyone in the audience is supposed to feel that the protagonist got the better end of the deal, but if not him, then we in the audience certainly got it even better (because we got a good view and didn't get slapped/punched). You could even argue that it's because he got "hit by a girl" that it didn't really hurt, even if he went flying in an insanely exaggerated way. Fights between boys often get bloody, but (arguably) a girl can only hit a boy for laughs.

So anyway, I think calling this particular trait evidence of a double-standard isn't really looking all that deeply at what's going on

Well, to be honest, I think we're going too deep for something that is supposed to be entertainment, but that's for arguments sake

As for the Road Runner scenario, that same can be said for the girls
they do not receive long term mental damage from being 'exposed'

But your Audience argument I can't pull down

[Archon_Wing]

To Love Ru? The series treats characters of both genders like crap. What with all the attempt to pass stuff off as softcore porn and humilating its characters nonstop, and Rito's personality defect being he doesn't want to fuck all these girls (he does have a reason, but of course that doesn't matter). Interestingly when they do have imagine spots where he does take initative, he comes across as a rapist, so yay! Or you know, have all aggressive females end up ultimately being wanted to fucked and dominated and whatever like the principal aka walking penis. You could say the series is crappy in that egalitarian way. [But again, why does treating males like objects in some kind of fantasy relevant anyways? One doesn't make the other better]

What To Love Ru doesn't do in the past, is ironically enough, treat women as sex objects with no personality so I actually give it a pass here. I really think it's not that bad for its genre. The characters are actually pretty distinct (though as of late they're forgetting people exist) It's ironically the Darkness parts (more the more recent parts) that just send the series in the shitter. If you look at late TLR/early Darkness, there's actually some great writing there, but I guess people are too busy going "omg tits and ass = bad!" without looking at the overall context. Still, I don't think it should be free from criticism.

Though I would admit that if you just watch the anime, it does seem to look like crap, because Xebec.

[Fizix]

Edit: actually, I can't be bothered, I'll cause an argument or something.

I think I'd have some issues with that show by default, so I'll just leave it at that.

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The appropriate response to that is to explicitly distance yourself from the extremists who send rape/death threats and say "they don't speak for me".

As someone who does consider themselves to be a feminist, I stay FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA R away from the PC crowd that you all are talking about. They sure as hell don't speak for me.


On topic: Well, I already stated it before but I'll say it again. There's objectification of both men and women in media. Since this is anime, I will say that there seems to be more....I don't want to say objectification specifically because this is fictional stuff....but more focus on the T and A on females because of the fact that the majority of anime viewers are male.

Though there does seem to be an upswing on female viewers in the last few years.

[Nightbat®]

Originally Posted by GDiddy

Though there does seem to be an upswing on female viewers in the last few years.

And there's a good chance you're gonna see more eyecandy for them

[Joyce_Steele]

Female otakus aka fujioshi are slowly replacing the male ones, nuff said.

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

And there's a good chance you're gonna see more eyecandy for them

At least the sports anime have the eyecandy...and the otome stuff.

Female otakus aka fujioshi are slowly replacing the male ones, nuff said.

We're not all fujioshi, dear.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by GDiddy

We're not all fujioshi, dear.

There. There. You don't have to deny your interest...


Joking, of course. It's like expect male anime fans to always gluing their eyes on-screen whenever they threw in those juggling boobs. In fact i think i dropped more shows because of the overdone fan services, than shows i continued watching because of them.

We not always like female character for their boobs you know (... we do sometime for their ass, legs, and zettai ryouiki....)

[Joyce_Steele]

As a woman myself, decent amount of male-oriented fanservice is great. Let's face it, we need as much as "male gaze" fanservice as much as "female gaze" one. If only "female gaze" fanservice allowed to exist and not "male gaze" one and this world could look like a girl's dorm right after a One Direction/Justin Bieber concert takes place.

Feel free to question my gender but I saw myself as a real-life incarnation of Kirino minus the brother complex.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Joyce_Steele

Feel free to question my gender but I saw myself as a real-life incarnation of Kirino minus the brother complex.

So one of your friends is yandere for you?

[Notshane]

In my opinion, well anime of such kinds exists, that is probably only if you are interested in Ecchi anime; which is not a bad thing, this forum probably doesn't judge anyone's tastes.

To me, anime is universal; you can enjoy all kinds of it, and the various types that those would enjoy exist. In this year of anime, so many wonderful ones exist; and now there are many, many types that appeal to all audiences. That is, unless some certain fowl-mouthed people stop spreading rumors on how all anime is the same.

Which, with as much time as you've spent on this forum, you probably know that lots of different genres exist by now; or you knew beforehand. Lots do not degrade women in the slightest, either! What your friend watched was probably Ecchi, or maybe Hentai judging from the situation that of which, can ultimately destroy anyone's opinion on anime if they were mostly exposed to that your friend is perhaps one of those folk that was, and maybe that damaged his outlook on the wonderful creation that is anime.

[oompa loompa]

Hahaha i love these shitshow topics, let me also cover myself in faeces;

you're asking if anime is 'prone' to objectify women. You must understand that this is practically equivalent to asking if the Japanese (because, anime is japanese, don't let anyone tell you otherwise) are more prone to objectify women. It has little or nothing to do with the style, or the fact that it's animated.

Do the japanese have a problem with objectifying women in media? fuck yeah they do! are you kidding?!? all of us here, we KNOW the kind of crazy sex objectification that so many animes shove down our throats. no point in denying it. But hey, I don't really mind it, I like to see panties and boobs, and cute sexy adorable women/girls being flustered. but in terms of objectifying women, anime is a HUGE culprit.

Having said that, it's not like men aren't objectified in the SAME way in anime. Even the nerdy loser characters in every other goddamn harem show; do people really think that having a boyish face without blemishes, a lean body with a six pack (or the box around a six pack, w/e its called) is normal?

To those who say that ' oh it only happens in shows like 'free' which are only about that' ; you're chalk full of shit m80. What about a show like psycho-pass where every other guy is suave, handsome, buff, and can kick ass? What about bleach? you surely see more half naked super buff yet somehow lean and boyish men than women in most shonen shows, is that not in the same vein of sexual objectification?

Anyhoo, does it happen more to women than men? yes! why? because the majority of people who spend on anime are male, whatchu gonna do if your studio is strapped for cash and about to go under and a show about an absolute loser thickheaded dunce getting with 5 hot babes is raking in the cash? make more of it, because at the end of the day you gotta put some food on the table.

PHEW.. next topic. To those hating on feminism, you guys are whiners, or you just don't know the reality in a lot of places. I live in a place where my landlord can say with a straight face that women are meant to stay in the kitchen after school and bear children. Do you know what's more fucked up? His wife and his daughter agree 100%. Here, our equivalent of congressman openly say things like 'rape isn't so bad, sometimes boys get excited and make mistakes ' (no jokes, you can pm me if you want the actual article).

Let me be clear, just because you think that some dumb chick throwing a tantrum about a scientists shirt is retarded (because it is retarded), shouldn't make you anti feminist. There are women all over the world, in the hundreds of millions that live in a reality so backwards you can't imagine it (not to mention crushing poverty and terrible sanitation, though thats a different issue altogether that's shared with equally many men); they need peoples support, mass support, because entire communities still need to evolve their mindsets. Surely everyone here who claims that feminism is obsolete would agree that these women need help right? That is what feminism is supposed to be about, you don't need to support all aspects of it.

Having said that, most people, both women and men who wear their 'feminism' badge on their sleeve and throw it around in every conversation are stupid, deluded, spoiled brats. They irritate me to no end with their idiotic irrational analysis about how some guy saying that the sky is blue means he believes women are only good for fucking, followed by the inevitable trail of shit comments, out of which at least 80% will be ' ugh, i think i just puked in my mouth a little '. God they make me angry.

Am I being too hard on them? Maybe. What can I do though, the world I live in is very different, and frankly I'm too busy trying to get my mess of a life together to be bothered about some abstract problem that may or may not exist. I guess that makes me a shitty misogynist pig right? OH WELL