[Anime-only] Naruto Shippuden Episode Discussion

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it is a troll. you are presented with evidence contrary to your point yet you stick to your guns for no reason other that to troll.

2+2=5. I don't care what evidence you supply to the contrary.

danzo was obviously aware that the heaven and earth bridge spy would be kabuto and would lead to orochimaru and that would lead to sasuke. so why not send more of his root anbu to track kabuto, find sasuke and give sai a better chance of beating sasuke. sai wasn't close to sasuke's power, but 3+ root anbu should have done the trick. there was no need to divulge info on tsunade's anbu agents. danzo purposely wanted to undermine her position and take her down. same thing with the nagato incident. his interest was not with the village, it was with taking tsunade down and becoming hokage himself. purely selfish and treasonous

I don't ignore evidence, because I never denied that Danzo leaked sensitive ANBU information. He did. Is that treason? Whether it's treason or not depends not on what he did but why he did it. He did it because Sasuke was a missing-nin of Konoha and a major threat to the village. Simple as that. And the reason Danzo didn't send a whole league of ANBU is because he knew exactly who he was dealing with: Kabuto and Orochimaru, two former Root members, and two of the most talented at that. The only way to get close was to feign an alliance with them.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Ha yes, the fact that Danzo tried to forge a secret alliance with Hanzo is now propaganda and lies and when you're given a direct example of Danzo betraying his men you move the goalpost and change it to betray the village.
Of course as I have previously listed there are also many examples of Danzo betraying the village but then you can simply redefine what the village means just as you have narrowly redefined evil to label no one but the criminally insane and traitor to mean, well nothing anymore really.
So what does the village mean? Not the legitimate leadership obviously. Danzo ignored their direct orders, schemed in their backs and planed for their death. Not the population that he abandoned to be slaughtered when it was convenient for the current Kage to be killed so he could take her place. Not the new generation, the children of his fallen comrades whom he abducted and coerced into murdering each others in order to create brainwashed drones under his absolute command.
No, the definition of treason, evil and village is apparently solely what Danzo says it is.

And this isn't trolling itachi-san314, merely dogmatism which if anything is rather fitting considering the subject of the conversation. This is exactly how you can convince people to perform monstrous acts and claim them righteous or look at a long list of dreadful schemes that ended in failures with terrible consequences and claim those were the best course of action regardless.

The village is the village. And the village is the people. The Hokage is not the village, what makes up the village is the people living in it. And this is kind of Danzo's internal conflict. On the one hand, he always thought of himself as the roots under the ground, supporting the village. But part of him always wanted to be Hokage. And then when the opportunity arised, he determined that he could unite the ninja world by controlling the underground and the surface.

Anyway, Danzo is a complicated character. A lot of people see him as a traitor, and they base that on their definition of treason. And the reason it's so complicated is because, just like evil, everyone has their own definition of what's treason and what's not. Mine differs from yours, and thus we argue.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by JustRob

I don't ignore evidence, because I never denied that Danzo leaked sensitive ANBU information. He did. Is that treason? Whether it's treason or not depends not on what he did but why he did it.

treason. good luck arguing that if you're ever part of a govt. organization and leak sensitive info to the enemy "no, you don't understand. I gave the enemy top secret information for our own good"

[Ryu_Hirakashi]

This topic is some of the best stuff I've read in this thread in a while. I'll keep my reply short and sweet.

I'm glad sasuke killed that evil son of a bitch!! He did the world a great service. Everything he did was for his own gains. The only thing about danzo's death that made me sad was that sasuke couldn't kill him more than once.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

treason. good luck arguing that if you're ever part of a govt. organization and leak sensitive info to the enemy "no, you don't understand. I gave the enemy top secret information for our own good"

+1000000000

I'm sure you'll making that speech all the way to the electric chair!! LOL!!

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

treason. good luck arguing that if you're ever part of a govt. organization and leak sensitive info to the enemy "no, you don't understand. I gave the enemy top secret information for our own good"

Way to completely miss the point of Danzo's actions. Tell me, if there was a criminal organization, and you could sneak in a spy by having him hand over some sensitive info on your government organization, giving that spy the opportunity to destroy the organization's strongest weapon, is it wise to do it? Sure, you leaked some sensitive info, but in return, you robbed your enemies of their most dangerous trump card.

Any government organization does what it needs to in order to protect the country. Like the NSA spying on everyone and their mom. It's controversial, but it's what they feel they need to do to protect their country.

[Monster0]

It would be kinda interesting to see an alternate universe in which Danzo gets his way.

Lets rewind to when he killed the messenger frog.Well it delayed Naruto's arrival,but things still turned out victorious maybe because of Hinata almost getting killed.But if Danzo got his way Naruto would not arrive at all during the attack.What would be left of the village population?definitely no resurrections would have occurred.
Then what would Naruto think when he did return and almost everyone is dead.I doubt he would go running to daddy Danzo for support.It wouldn't take a great detective to figure out who killed the frog.Hmm Akatsuki would start to look pretty good right now,with Naruto going to their side the infinite tsukuyomi plan would have went alot smoother, no need for a war.
Oh yeah and with a successful capture of the eight tails their would definitely be no allied shinobi nothing.So speak no evil,see no evil,say no evil,Danzo,you just shot yourself in the foot.

Maybe someone else can think of a positive outcome for 'if Danzo got his way'.

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by Monster0

It would be kinda interesting to see an alternate universe in which Danzo gets his way.

Lets rewind to when he killed the messenger frog.Well it delayed Naruto's arrival,but things still turned out victorious maybe because of Hinata almost getting killed.But if Danzo got his way Naruto would not arrive at all during the attack.What would be left of the village population?definitely no resurrections would have occurred.
Then what would Naruto think when he did return and almost everyone is dead.I doubt he would go running to daddy Danzo for support.It wouldn't take a great detective to figure out who killed the frog.Hmm Akatsuki would start to look pretty good right now,with Naruto going to their side the infinite tsukuyomi plan would have went alot smoother, no need for a war.
Oh yeah and with a successful capture of the eight tails their would definitely be no allied shinobi nothing.So speak no evil,see no evil,say no evil,Danzo,you just shot yourself in the foot.

Maybe someone else can think of a positive outcome for 'if Danzo got his way'.

You have a wild imagination, I'll give you that. But to me, far more interesting is "what if Tsunade got her way"?

When Tsunade ordered the messenger frog, Kosuke, to retrieve Naruto, he hadn't finished his training yet. In fact, Naruto hadn't even attempted to fuse with the frogs yet. And as you know, Sage Mode can only be actived by remaining perfectly still or by fusing with the frog elders. So what would have happened, had Kosuke retrieved Naruto? He wouldn't have known about the Kyuubi interfering with the fusion, so he would go to the battlefield, without leaving Sage Mode clones, under the impression that he could go Sage Mode during battle by using fusion. After Naruto's Sage Mode had expired the first time, Pain would have utterly crushed him, taken him back, and extracted the Kyuubi from him, killing him.

That's what would have happened, if Danzo hadn't killed Kosuke the messenger frog, and delayed Naruto's return.

It's true, Danzo couldn't have known that Pain would bring everyone back to life. But as he said himself, Tsunade's healing techniques would prevent a total annihilation of the village.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by JustRob

Way to completely miss the point of Danzo's actions.

sigh... really? i admit you don't seem like a troll, but you're doing your best to imitate one. as clearly as i can possibly put it: danzo's actions were 100% done to have a danzo led konoha regardless of how he hurt the village and undermined its various leaders.

Tell me, if there was a criminal organization, and you could sneak in a spy by having him hand over some sensitive info on your government organization, giving that spy the opportunity to destroy the organization's strongest weapon, is it wise to do it?

it depends on the weight of the intel. in this case we're talking about the personal information of the entire ANBU squad so no it isn't worth it. Not by a long shot. If it was worth it, danzo would have divulged info on the Root ANBU as well, but guess what... he didn't. The fact that you don't see danzo's intentions of setting up tsunade is astounding.

Any government organization does what it needs to in order to protect the country. Like the NSA spying on everyone and their mom. It's controversial, but it's what they feel they need to do to protect their country.

since you want to make this real, let's go there. if you had sensitive intel on your country's troops and saw an opportunity to give that info to an enemy nation in order to hopefully kill a particular terrorist. and you did it on your own without the knowledge of leading politicians and generals, then you would be tried and convicted of treason. and either spend a large portion of your life in prison or be executed.

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

sigh... really? i admit you don't seem like a troll, but you're doing your best to imitate one. as clearly as i can possibly put it: danzo's actions were 100% done to have a danzo led konoha regardless of how he hurt the village and undermined its various leaders.

it depends on the weight of the intel. in this case we're talking about the personal information of the entire ANBU squad so no it isn't worth it. Not by a long shot. If it was worth it, danzo would have divulged info on the Root ANBU as well, but guess what... he didn't. The fact that you don't see danzo's intentions of setting up tsunade is astounding.

since you want to make this real, let's go there. if you had sensitive intel on your country's troops and saw an opportunity to give that info to an enemy nation in order to hopefully kill a particular terrorist. and you did it on your own without the knowledge of leading politicians and generals, then you would be tried and convicted of treason. and either spend a large portion of your life in prison or be executed.

Well, I won't deny Danzo did what he did to become Hokage. It was one of his goals. But you're downplaying the weight of Danzo's other plan. He wasn't targeting "some terrorist", he was targeting Uchiha Sasuke, Orochimaru's most powerful asset. Why bother giving Orochimaru info on Root ANBU? Orochimaru already knew most of the people in it, he had been in Root himself for a long period of time. The only way to gain his trust was to give out information he didn't have yet.

But here's where things don't make sense. Danzo knew Orochimaru was planning to crush the Leaf. If his intention was to give Orochimaru intel on Tsunade's guards so he could kill her, then why would he deprive Orochimaru of his secret weapon, Sasuke? Danzo is not an idiot, even he knew that there was no way Orochimaru could get that close to Tsunade without a powerful host.

I know you see Danzo as a traitor, and I can see why most people would. He wanted to achieve two things, safety of the village and the position of Hokage. Unfortunately these don't exactly go hand in hand, so compromises have to be made. But if Danzo really wanted to sabotage Tsunade, he would have sent out intel about her and her ANBU to every major enemy of Konoha, including Akatsuki. But he didn't. He simply needed a bargaining chip to get close to Orochimaru, and he chose to kill two flies with one stone. There was a very small chance that the ANBU intel would actually be used by Orochimaru, but if it was, it would just weaken Tsunade's position.

[itachi-san314]

you're just making one random point after another because you can't bring yourself to admit that what danzo did was treason. you're also completely underestimating orochimaru's intelligence. he knew very well who danzo was and that danzo would stab him in the back at any time if it suited danzo's needs at the time. a list of anbu agents wouldn't and didn't fool orochimaru into anything. he knew exactly what sai was and simply wanted to see the situation play out and test sasuke. he was watching the whole time and having fun with it. when it was about to get out of hand, he stopped sasuke and left

[JustRob]

Well, no matter what else happened, one thing we can be clear of: Danzo's intention was to kill Sasuke. There's no other explanation for Sai trying to kill him, and telling everyone that those were his orders from Danzo. And I'm not completely convinced it didn't fool Orochimaru. Kabuto had Sai against the ground, ready to kill him, and only after looking at the list of ANBU Orochimaru said they would take him with them.

There's nothing to admit, I don't think what Danzo did was treason. He didn't betray the village. He betrayed the Hokage at the very least, but that's hardly the same thing.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by JustRob

There's nothing to admit, I don't think what Danzo did was treason. He didn't betray the village. He betrayed the Hokage at the very least, but that's hardly the same thing.

you are simply wrong about this. it's not an agree to disagree type of thing like debating what 'evil' is. betraying the hokage and the anbu is betraying the village and that is treason

[JustRob]

So you're saying a person can't be of the opinion that betraying the Hokage, an individual, is not the same as betraying the village?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by JustRob

So you're saying a person can't be of the opinion that betraying the Hokage, an individual, is not the same as betraying the village?

you always conveniently omit that he betrayed the entire anbu squad.

out of curiosity, have you read your own signature quote?

edit: meh, you keep changing the topic and omitting facts to try to prove your incorrect point. leaving the village to die at pain's hands, giving up intel on the anbu, working with hanzo and orochimaru were all betrayals of the village. plain and simple

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by JustRob

So you're saying a person can't be of the opinion that betraying the Hokage, an individual, is not the same as betraying the village?

The problem here is that you can't agree on the definitions of even the most basic of things with any of us. For example "betrayal" or "hokage" are apparently something very different for you. In reality hokage is not an individual but a title, and if you betray the man who currently holds that title that by definition means that you have betrayed the village. Because the hokage is the leader of the village, and when we refer to hokage we do not refer to Sarutobi as an "individual", but we refer to the leader of the village. Danzou could betray Tsunade as an individual if for example he cheated when playing cards, in that special case he would not betray the village

The meaning of betrayal can be read on wikipedia if you have problems with that.

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

you always conveniently omit that he betrayed the entire anbu squad.

out of curiosity, have you read your own signature quote?

edit: meh, you keep changing the topic and omitting facts to try to prove your incorrect point. leaving the village to die at pain's hands, giving up intel on the anbu, working with hanzo and orochimaru were all betrayals of the village. plain and simple

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The problem here is that you can't agree on the definitions of even the most basic of things with any of us. For example "betrayal" or "hokage" are apparently something very different for you. In reality hokage is not an individual but a title, and if you betray the man who currently holds that title that by definition means that you have betrayed the village. Because the hokage is the leader of the village, and when we refer to hokage we do not refer to Sarutobi as an "individual", but we refer to the leader of the village. Danzou could betray Tsunade as an individual if for example he cheated when playing cards, in that special case he would not betray the village

The meaning of betrayal can be read on wikipedia if you have problems with that.

Fine. If you guys are this determined, I'll give you this one. Danzo leaked secret info on the Hokage's personal ANBU, and thereby committed treason.

It still doesn't change much, however. Danzo betrayed the village in order to do what he thought was right. Itachi betrayed the village in order to maintain the peace. Sometimes, a treasonous act is necessary.

[Ryu_Hirakashi]

Originally Posted by JustRob

Fine. If you guys are this determined, I'll give you this one. Danzo leaked secret info on the Hokage's personal ANBU, and thereby committed treason.

It still doesn't change much, however. Danzo betrayed the village in order to do what he thought was right. Itachi betrayed the village in order to maintain the peace. Sometimes, a treasonous act is necessary.

FUCKING THANK YOU!!!! I've been waiting for you to finally utter those words. Betrayal of the hokage is indeed betraying the whole village. That is the elected official to represent the WHOLE village. Please don't be delusional. In the end he got what he deserved for his actions. I'm sure had sasuke not killed him, somebody else would have. His days were already numbered. The betrayer will eventually find him/herself betrayed in the end.

[DKN117]

Something funny pointed out on Sasuke and Danzo's respective Character sections on TV-Tropes: Danzou did everything, in his mind, for the good of the village, yet all his actions ended up causing the village harm in the long run. Side with Hanzou to deal with them uppity kids in the Rain Country? Give rise to Pain, who forms Akatsuki, which gives Konoha no end of trouble later on, and personally grav-nukes the village years later. Try to get two potentially-dangerous spies to off each other? Give Kabuto impetus to betray the village in favor of Orochimaru, and eventually team up with the Big Bad to terrorize the world. Make Itachi kill the Uchiha? Sasuke The Avenger. Try to use Shisui's Kotoamatsukami to force the other villages to make him leader? Get found out and lose all trustworthiness whatsoever.

Meanwhile, Sasuke wants to destroy the Leaf Village, yet a lot of his actions end up to the village's benefit. Killing Orochimaru, killing Deidara, killing Danzou, killing the original White Zetsu...

Basically, the guy trying to help the village ends up accidentally hurting it, while the guy trying to hurt the village ends up accidentally helping it!

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by DKN117

Something funny pointed out on Sasuke and Danzo's respective Character sections on TV-Tropes: Danzou did everything, in his mind, for the good of the village, yet all his actions ended up causing the village harm in the long run. Side with Hanzou to deal with them uppity kids in the Rain Country? Give rise to Pain, who forms Akatsuki, which gives Konoha no end of trouble later on, and personally grav-nukes the village years later. Try to get two potentially-dangerous spies to off each other? Give Kabuto impetus to betray the village in favor of Orochimaru, and eventually team up with the Big Bad to terrorize the world. Make Itachi kill the Uchiha? Sasuke The Avenger. Try to use Shisui's Kotoamatsukami to force the other villages to make him leader? Get found out and lose all trustworthiness whatsoever.

Meanwhile, Sasuke wants to destroy the Leaf Village, yet a lot of his actions end up to the village's benefit. Killing Orochimaru, killing Deidara, killing Danzou, killing the original White Zetsu...

Basically, the guy trying to help the village ends up accidentally hurting it, while the guy trying to hurt the village ends up accidentally helping it!

Even if he hadn't sided with Hanzo, Hanzo would still have betrayed Akatsuki. He tried to have Kabuto and Nonou kill each other sure, but as an extra measure he sent Orochimaru to kill the possible survivor. Danzo couldn't have known Orochimaru would betray the village. Itachi was supposed to kill the entire Uchiha, including Sasuke. But as you know he failed, thus Danzo's scheme to have Sasuke killed later on. But he wasn't thorough enough here, which ended up being his death warrant. And ofcourse, Danzo had no idea about Ao's byakugan. It was unlikely for a byakugan to be there.

But yeah, it's really easy to talk about someone's wrongdoings, while neglecting their good deeds. Because as I've explained above, had Danzo not delayed Naruto, the Leaf village would no longer exist by now and Akatsuki would be ruling the world.

All of you also keep bringing up the Uchiha massacre, time and time again. And once again I ask you, come up with a better solution. The Uchiha were out for blood, negotiations were failing, and they were ready to declare war on the village. What would you have done? Give them the time to start their coup, unleashing a civil war within the village, and assuring that another village would take the opportunity to wipe them out?

[snip]

Paint Danzo as the bad guy all you want, Konoha owes its future partly to him. It's because of sacrifices people like him and Itachi made that the village remained peaceful.

[monir]

Cool it Rob. Name calling won't be tolerated. You've been doing well thus far, but if the argument is starting to get frustrating then you may stop by not replying any longer.

What you need to realize that your side of the argument is pretty hard to swallow for most people. What you also don't seem to acknowledge that whatever positive intention Danzo may have had about achieving long term peace had also gotten mixed up and polluted by his own political ambition. In a hindsight, the goal he set aside to get to peace didn't seem any better than let things be as they were. His intention doesn't reflect his own action as has been shown time and time again. As our own history also shows, coercion never ever worked to achieve any form of peace. Also, there is more than one solution to every problem, but people like Danzo usually are unwilling to look for any other alternative.

For the rest of you folks, take it easy on Rob.

[Ryu_Hirakashi]

This whole discussion got my wheels turning, and it made me realize that THIS why I love Naruto so much. Sure, a lot of people would dismiss this show as another kiddy shounen show if they only watched it at the beginning.

I've been with this show since almost the beginning, and to see this show evolve into an adult show that communicates real feelings because of real issues.

I remember 10-15 years back when I initially finished watching Dragonball wondering what the hell was it all for. At least this show will hopefully have a definitive end with ALL things tied up like a nice package. I'm very glad that I made it through the 500+ episodes (- filler) to enjoy this captivating story.

It's too bad Hollywood as nearly forgotten how to captivate the audience in this way. It's a shame that too many would dismiss this show because it's animated. I just thought I'd put this out there.