2009-03-30, 00:10 | Link #1202 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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I keep saying this, and you people keep discounting it, and I don't know how you can. |
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2009-03-30, 01:35 | Link #1203 |
Heaven's Nightmare
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Why should you care?
Age: 35
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Yes it does say "True Ending of Fate/Stay Night". But you can deny the possiblity that the other two routes can actually happen. And this is a game of choices, be real or fake, it is the player the one who makes the ending.
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2009-03-30, 04:52 | Link #1204 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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I wonder, then, what the other 'true endings' are? The game clearly marks both the Fate route, as well as one of the endings in Unlimited Blade Works as 'True Endings' if Heavens Feel is the true ending, what are the other two?
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2009-03-30, 16:47 | Link #1205 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
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One thing I like about Nasu is how he is responsive to fan feedback, that's why Sacchin can finally get her route and why Shirou and Saber can meet in Avalon finally. Considering how the anime and manga both follow Fate and UBW, that just adds more credibility to those routes. Nasu did say they were all valid, the 'True Ending' that Kaisos is mentioning only refers to the ending of the game itself, not the totality of the story. |
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2009-03-30, 21:03 | Link #1207 | |||||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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With Tsukihime, sure, where all routes are open from the beginning, but with F/SN you have to play the routes IN ORDER. While I'm sure many people would have liked the game to stop at UBW, it doesn't, and this is for a REASON. Quote:
Yeah, the final dojo states that HF is one possible outcome, but what it actually says is that HF is "one answer" to how Shirou should live. It also says that Fate and UBW present "the question" of how he should live. Logically, this means that they are exempt from being "the answer". It works too, as HF wouldn't work at all unless the player was already familiar with the concepts presented in the previous two routes. Quote:
Alternatively, it has to do with the fact that people cannot "accept" the message HF, and the game, are trying to tell them. How I see it, anyway. Quote:
However, all three routes together form a linear path, a MESSAGE, which I covered in an earlier post. Again, the simple fact that routes have to be played in linear order convinces me that HF is the ending of the story as a whole. Goddamn UBW fanboys. Quote:
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What should matter is what the game itself says. |
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2009-03-30, 22:35 | Link #1208 | ||
Heaven's Nightmare
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Why should you care?
Age: 35
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And I'm taking the post from the Image thread here because of obvious reasons Ah? when does she die? I see her in the epilogue of the fate route. Quote:
I also played the game to see the HF route, but for different reasons (Fate was in the anime and UBW was too spoiled everywhere, hard to not know what happens) and I repeat myself, I liked it, more than the fate route . It's just that it's not the same as the other two routes. IMO, while HF is a drama the other two are action stories and thus they attract more attention. About Shirou's death wish, I'll just say that through history, heroes were born, used, adored, killed, inmortalized, crucified, martyred and etc. Be it in the form of political/religious figures, rebel leaders, kings, conquerors, liberators and etc. Heroes are needed in the actual society, and heroes are sacrificed for the actual society. It's been like that in the past and will always be like that. Of course, the "heroes" I'm talking about don't have Reallity Marbles but you get the point I'm not saying Shirou's ideals are wrong or right, but they are needed. One might call it a "Necessary evil"? |
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2009-03-30, 23:12 | Link #1209 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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And he ends up saving everyone except Saber and Ilya anyway. |
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2009-03-31, 00:49 | Link #1210 | ||||||
バルサミコス
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Did I read that right...This line totally destroys everything...I mean, if the creator of the entire Nasuverse says something, I'm fairly sure that means something. In regards to the Nasuverse, Nasu trumps Akasha. Well, then what's to say that him writing HF wasn't just him making up another story because the F/SN game felt too short? Quote:
It does not say that Heavens Feel is the de facto ending, it is merely one possible answer to how Shirou should live his life. If it was intended to be the absolute answer, than this would not be worded as such. Indeed. Just one of the (many possible) answers is Heavens Feel. That does not mean that it is the only answer, nor is it the right answer, it is just one of them. |
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2009-03-31, 01:06 | Link #1211 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Exactly. Fate and UBW are the question, and HF is an answer. This is what it says.
Question =//= answer. But I really want to stop arguing about this. And that philosophy of never listening to what Nasu says outside of the games is one I've heard touted by Nasuverse fans a lot... you've seriously never heard of it before? The idea is you only pay attention to what the games/novels say because Nasu contradicts himself and changes his mind a lot. And I didn't know that about Tsukihime. Thank you for informing me. My argument pretty much falls apart here, though I'd think that all the routes would paint a complete story of the whole plot though, and that none of them would explain everything on their own. Not mutally exclusive, etc. The game still SAYS HF is the True Ending though. That's all I can really argue at this point. I'm not saying any other routes are less valid, I'm saying that that is how the game, as a whole, is meant to be viewed and that that's how it ends. I can also see you really don't want to admit HF exists or has any validity though, which is my problem. Again, it's probably because HF wasn't UBW, right? |
2009-03-31, 02:28 | Link #1212 | ||||||
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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You are very quick to dismiss these points, and yet both of them are in no way proven incorrect.
Ilya saying 'the true ending of Fate/Stay Night' could very easily be referring to the fact that the game ends soon. In fact, in context with the whole 'it's been a long road' speech that they give prior to that claim, this would be an accurate interpretation. I mean, if we're going to 'interpret' things, then why don't we look at the description of the Fate route? "It's a route that represents Fate" This line, describing the Fate route as the route that represents the game, could be interpreted as Fate being the 'one true route' just as easily as 'the true ending of Fate/Stay Night' can be interpreted as it being the 'one true route' Now combine the former two points in this new light. Every route has an ending labeled the 'true ending' and the context of the conversation seems to refer to the line talking about the ending of the game, rather then Heavens Feel being the true route. Seems to me that it's still a matter of 'which route do I want to believe in?' Quote:
Was it really necessary to make such a pointless accusation? I can just as easily say that you defend a single line with multiple interpretations 'because Fate isn't Heavens Feel' Ported from image thread: Quote:
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Yes, it's not UBW. But why can't we dislike a storyline? Personally, I dislike the Heavens Feel story because of the whole 'pity poor Sakura' thing. At least the Fate and UBW routes gave me girls that could kick ass throughout the game. Heavens Feel only gave me that during the final day, making most of the route 'oh hey, we need to pity Sakura again.' Last edited by Keroko; 2009-03-31 at 02:45. |
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2009-03-31, 04:21 | Link #1213 | ||||||||||
バルサミコス
Join Date: Oct 2008
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The game obviously says that Fate and UBW present a question. My point I'm trying to say is that HF is not the True ending because there can be multiple True endings, just because it's not there doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What is true, however, is the fact that Fate and UBW together form a question asking about the existence of Shirou. I'm not saying that UBW is the True ending, I'm just saying that F/SN ends in an open ended question with no intent to have a true ending brought to it. Quote:
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And you won't believe that the game ends with Fate or UBW because it isn't HF, right? Quote:
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If you look at the previous two stories as a base for Shirou's development as a person, this sudden change of personality can only really be described as OOC. Much like looking at a fanfic story and say...Rin spontaneously is a nice person and ends up going on a date with Issei...the personality is forcefully changed simply to make them fit in the story...that's what I call OOC, and that's how I feel Shirou is in HF. Quote:
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2009-03-31, 04:56 | Link #1214 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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I'm still confused as to how the whole answer thing makes a route the true one. Or what makes the former two questions at all. I mean, hell, you could just as easily switch UBW and Heavens Feel in order of play and have UBW be an answer. |
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2009-03-31, 07:05 | Link #1215 | |||
バルサミコス
Join Date: Oct 2008
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A transition into their new character from event transpiring throughout the story develop a character. Like character A who slowly becomes character B because of the trials and tasks put before him vs a character that starts out as character B. I'm not too sure if this is a good explanation, it doesn't really seem like one to me, but in short, I do think that the events from UBW and Fate create the characters that exist at the end of their respected routes and I do see them as IC characters. HF, the characters in there seem to have taken a drastic change in too little a time span for it to be a gradual change and acceptance of ideas but rather they had them forced upon them for the benefit of the storyline. With Archer, the conviction that Shirou has during their fight makes him believe in what he once believed in as well, which should be easy considering who Archer is. With Illya, its not so much that Illya hated Shirou, but rather was jealous of him for 'taking' her father she loved. I can believe jealousy to be overturned rather easily compared to hatred. Quote:
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That is that part that Kaisos is not looking at, that it says it is only an answer and not the answer. What Kaisos is seeing is Tiger Dojo 39 where it says (after the 'It's been a long road') you finally arive to the end of HF, the true ending to F/SN. If you take the 'It's been a long road' into context with the question/answer part, you can see that HF is meant to be only an answer. If you don't take the 'It's been a long road' part into context, you see Tiger Dojo saying that HF is the true end to F/SN and that it is an answer to the question provided. That said, it is also the only available answer provided. What is larger than 5? If you had to choose from a specific set of answers, than 6 is correct and 4 is not. In that context, the question is requiring a specific answer and HF is the only answer available to choose from, instead of seeing it as an open ended question which the clues in text lead you to believe. |
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2009-03-31, 14:21 | Link #1216 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Okay, I wasn't necessarily targeting you guys with my comments about everyone saying "Shirou is OOC, this route doesn't exist, UBW is the only true end bawww". I used to hear this around a lot, so...
...That's probably my biggest beef with the western fandom as a whole, how much they harp on the percieved lack of quality in Heaven's Feel. I really don't like it when people pretend something was never written or never happened because it makes them feel better inside. [QUOTE=ShinMasaki;2310055 That is that part that Kaisos is not looking at, that it says it is only an answer and not the answer.[/QUOTE] ...I've been admitting this. What I was saying was that UBW is not the "answer" the game offers and that HF is the only "answer" we are offered in the game. "How should Shirou live his life? Well, there's a lot of possibilities, but here's an answer, and probably the best one given the circumstances." That's how I see it. Yes, UBW ends happily. Is everything solved? Is the world saved? Did Shirou do anything that really mattered in the long run? Did he absolve his father? I'd say no, but some people have different ways of looking at things, so... And switching HF and UBW wouldn't work. HF is strongly reliant on the player knowing everything else to tell its story. |
2009-03-31, 14:34 | Link #1217 | ||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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How so? I mean, what points from UBW are specifically needed to explain Heavens Feel? |
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2009-03-31, 16:59 | Link #1220 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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UBW would be entirely spoiled for you after playing HF, is how I see it. |
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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