Mobile Suit Gundam AGE - Episode 47 Discussion/Poll

[John117xCortana]

At least Kio now understands why his grandfather hates the Vagan so much.

[Vsin]

Am I the only one who gets the impression that Kio is actually SCARED of killing people? While it wasn't made explicit in previous episodes, this one showed that Kio "resonates" the abject fear reaction, and holds back because of it, even when he goes full rage mode.

Think about it. Ideology is all well and good, but the only way you're going to flip your state from absolute rage to absolute pacifism in a split second would be due to instinct. In Kio's case, he's afraid of killing people because he can see them crapping their pants every darn time, and presumably he x-rounder-empathizes with a portion of the pain. Think Tifa in GX EP...I can't even remember now, the first time the Satcann is used. While nothing has been said explicitly yet, I think it's strongly implied that Kio would resonate with some of the pain; heck, I can't help but think that the whole point of Girard's existence was to imply this.

Seric's death is the important lesson that Kio needs to learn (namely, to pull the trigger on your friends/loved ones for the sake of others) but the show is very explicit in showing that Kio has NOT learned this lesson. And that is what led me to believe that Kio's refusal to kill is based not on ideology, but on mere fear.

Heck, take AGE 1 Flit: despite the fact that Desil had just killed Yurin, he doesn't finish the job. Same goes for vegan whatshisface - Flit tries to shoot him, but takes so long that Grodek did it instead.

[aeriolewinters]

You raise a good point Vsin, the last scene in that battle was Kio getting shocked at seeing Zanald's face.

[overloard]

I took it as that Kio was shocked by what he was about to do: brutally kill another person in the fit of blind rage. I don't think he cared about what happens Zanald, it was all about staying true to himself.

[Vsin]

Originally Posted by overloard

I took it as that Kio was shocked by what he was about to do: brutally kill another person in the fit of blind rage. I don't think he cared about what happens Zanald, it was all about staying true to himself.

You're right in saying that he doesn't care that it was Zanald, the guy who just killed his own subordinate and Kio's friend in cold blood. However, just by reading the phrase "brutally kill another person in the fit of blind rage", I can't help but think that the amount of time it would take to process that would've been way too long to pull the proverbial punch. If mere ideology was the case, a more likely result would've been Kio killing Zanald, and then realizing a second later what he had done.

Like I said, the reaction appears to be directly related to the fear of his opponent, not his own actions. Whether or not the writers actually take this path is an entirely different discussion...

[SoldierOfDarkness]

At least Kio now understands why his grandfather hates the Vagan so much.

Hahahahahahah yeah no.

The Vagans can do whatever they want and Kio would still be in denial. Regardless though it'd be bad writing (although it already is) for him to back out on his no-kill policy after dealing with Zanald.

If he had killed Zanald then he could've come to the resolution that he needs to kill in order to protect the ones he loved (but then again that'd be falling into Flit and Asemu's camp and we can't have that being redundant) but he didn't so they need to keep that up. At the very least he would start taking the fight more seriously. Curious though if he's going to be thinking about Seric.

While nothing has been said explicitly yet, I think it's strongly implied that Kio would resonate with some of the pain; heck, I can't help but think that the whole point of Girard's existence was to imply this.

I find it silly though that Kio now sees the Vagans screaming and crying when they're about to get killed.

I mean is this the same faction where they wouldnt' hesitate to gun down their own guys after getting their paint scratched? The ones who stood at their consoles while their commander was gunned down and their base blew up? The ones who Yarik stated that they did not fear death? Hell Decil even jumped into the AGE gundam and killed TWO of his own comrades with that unit before handing it back to Flit (granted he was crazy but still)

In G3 they surrendered the Lunar Base to Seric after he threatened to blow them to kingdom come and now we see them getting scared when they're about to die.

I mean when did they become pansies?

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Hahahahahahah yeah no.

The Vagans can do whatever they want and Kio would still be in denial. Regardless though it'd be bad writing (although it already is) for him to back out on his no-kill policy after dealing with Zanald.

If he had killed Zanald then he could've come to the resolution that he needs to kill in order to protect the ones he loved (but then again that'd be falling into Flit and Asemu's camp and we can't have that being redundant) but he didn't so they need to keep that up. At the very least he would start taking the fight more seriously. Curious though if he's going to be thinking about Seric.



I find it silly though that Kio now sees the Vagans screaming and crying when they're about to get killed.

I mean is this the same faction where they wouldnt' hesitate to gun down their own guys after getting their paint scratched? The ones who stood at their consoles while their commander was gunned down and their base blew up? The ones who Yarik stated that they did not fear death? Hell Decil even jumped into the AGE gundam and killed TWO of his own comrades with that unit before handing it back to Flit (granted he was crazy but still)

In G3 they surrendered the Lunar Base to Seric after he threatened to blow them to kingdom come and now we see them getting scared when they're about to die.

I mean when did they become pansies?

Those examples are just clear cases of laziness and really bad writing. They completely dehumanized the Vagans for 3/4 of the show, then towards the end they went "oh shit, we gotta make these guys somewhat sympathetic!", and starting throwing in the classic Gundam shots of the pilot just before they bow up. These guys in charge of AGE missed the original theme from MSG, where pilots and ordinary soldiers were simply portrayed as cogs in the machine, with both sides having good people, few morally questionable individuals and even fewer outright asshole psychopaths. AGE is simply just not realistic in that respect .

The fact that Zeon are more sympathetic than the Vagans despite being a carbon copy of Nazi Germany, is quite telling about the extend of AGE's writing issues.

[X207]

looks like theres a destiny scene in 47. Zehaert looks jost like durandal at the end. im a bit dissappointed with Zehaert taking up the master race over the existing ones. i though he'd go with plan eden with some mods barring a master race. though this is a enemy leader so its not entirely surprising he'd go with the original plan.

i like the FX MS design more that the original age-3. it doesnt look as bulky as FX. age1 is nice but age2 is the best for design imo. age2 is not too elaborate but not simple looking. it'd be AGE2, age 3 FX, age1 then age 3 normal.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by X207

looks like theres a destiny scene in 47. Zehaert looks jost like durandal at the end. im a bit dissappointed with Zehaert taking up the master race over the existing ones. i though he'd go with plan eden with some mods barring a master race. though this is a enemy leader so its not entirely surprising he'd go with the original plan.

i like the FX MS design more that the original age-3. it doesnt look as bulky as FX. age1 is nice but age2 is the best for design imo. age2 is not too elaborate but not simple looking. it'd be AGE2, age 3 FX, age1 then age 3 normal.

The FX is a separate Gundam from the AGE-3.

Though I agree with AGE-2 being the best AGE Gundam( especially Dark Hound). But, this discussion is better suited for the mecha thread.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Those examples are just clear cases of laziness and really bad writing. They completely dehumanized the Vagans for 3/4 of the show, then towards the end they went "oh shit, we gotta make these guys somewhat sympathetic!", and starting throwing in the classic Gundam shots of the pilot just before they bow up. These guys in charge of AGE missed the original theme from MSG, where pilots and ordinary soldiers were simply portrayed as cogs in the machine, with both sides having good people, few morally questionable individuals and even fewer outright asshole psychopaths. AGE is simply just not realistic in that respect .

The fact that Zeon are more sympathetic than the Vagans despite being a carbon copy of Nazi Germany, is quite telling about the extend of AGE's writing issues.

At least I'm not the only one who notices this.

I think it would've been better if the Vagans remained the "heartless monsters" that Flit dealt with in G1 and then by G3 Kio's actions with his x-rounder powers start to "chip" away to get to their human heart underneath.

This would prove to Flit that not "all Vagans are bad"

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Vsin

Am I the only one who gets the impression that Kio is actually SCARED of killing people? While it wasn't made explicit in previous episodes, this one showed that Kio "resonates" the abject fear reaction, and holds back because of it, even when he goes full rage mode.

Originally Posted by overloard

I took it as that Kio was shocked by what he was about to do: brutally kill another person in the fit of blind rage. I don't think he cared about what happens Zanald, it was all about staying true to himself.

Pretty much this reaction.

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[Zeydra]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

I find it silly though that Kio now sees the Vagans screaming and crying when they're about to get killed.

I mean is this the same faction where they wouldnt' hesitate to gun down their own guys after getting their paint scratched? The ones who stood at their consoles while their commander was gunned down and their base blew up? The ones who Yarik stated that they did not fear death? Hell Decil even jumped into the AGE gundam and killed TWO of his own comrades with that unit before handing it back to Flit (granted he was crazy but still)

In G3 they surrendered the Lunar Base to Seric after he threatened to blow them to kingdom come and now we see them getting scared when they're about to die.

I mean when did they become pansies?

I suspect the UE back in arc 1 were extremists chosen for the job because of their mindset, rather than the main military that we are dealing with by this point in the war.

Not that that excuses the shoddy portrayal of the Vagans, but I don't find it all that unbelievable that the mindset of the general Vagan military can change over 60+ years and/or was different to those chosen for the relatively small job of the Ambat forces.

It's a shame they never showed this sort of thing instead of bringing in more death fodder characters though, because this means we have to rely on theories rather than facts they could have easily given us and made the show more interesting.

[Dengar]

Kio isn't in denial. It's not like the Vegans are bad people or anything. Exceptions notwithstanding. The exceptions thing of course could also be said about the Feds. Take that guy who defected and killed his own allies to escape for example.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Kio isn't in denial. It's not like the Vegans are bad people or anything. Exceptions notwithstanding. The exceptions thing of course could also be said about the Feds. Take that guy who defected and killed his own allies to escape for example.

He may be an Earther but he isn't a Fed anymore as he was a traitor. A traitor for quite some time. Going from a lowly tech to a base commander.

[overloard]

Blaming all Vagan soldiers for the events of gen 1 is no better than blaming all Earthers for abandonment and suffering of Vagans on Mars. AGE fails to properly address and explain it, but portrayal of Vagan military changed a lot since the beginning of the series, which can be clearly seen by comparing Luna Base officer to Gerra Zoi and his zombies. Also, i think it's important to note that for the most part Federation characters view them more as just other side in conflict than as space monsters who prey on innocents and need to be exterminated at all costs (as Flit does), so apparently from in-universe POV they (at least those who don't participate in Project Eden) are no considered wrong or evil anymore.

Originally Posted by Vsin

You're right in saying that he doesn't care that it was Zanald, the guy who just killed his own subordinate and Kio's friend in cold blood. However, just by reading the phrase "brutally kill another person in the fit of blind rage", I can't help but think that the amount of time it would take to process that would've been way too long to pull the proverbial punch. If mere ideology was the case, a more likely result would've been Kio killing Zanald, and then realizing a second later what he had done.

Like I said, the reaction appears to be directly related to the fear of his opponent, not his own actions. Whether or not the writers actually take this path is an entirely different discussion...

It's not like understanding and no-killing are some false ideals Kio forces himself to believe in. It's who he is, so in that moment he just felt that what he was doing is wrong (for him) and stopped. And really, it's not like he made attempt to help or rescue Zanald, just refused to brutally hack him into pieces, if not for the escape pod Gorilla Guy probably would have perished in explosion anyway.

I'm not bothered by Kio actions in this episode in the slightest. Since AGE obviously going "understanding" route, pulling the trigger for the sake of loved ones and etc is likely not going to happen with Kio no matter what. In this case, murdering Zanald would be just killing for the sake of killing which I think is never good. And Zanald is obviously going to get what he deserves one way or another.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Zeydra

I suspect the UE back in arc 1 were extremists chosen for the job because of their mindset, rather than the main military that we are dealing with by this point in the war.

Not that that excuses the shoddy portrayal of the Vagans, but I don't find it all that unbelievable that the mindset of the general Vagan military can change over 60+ years and/or was different to those chosen for the relatively small job of the Ambat forces.

It's a shame they never showed this sort of thing instead of bringing in more death fodder characters though, because this means we have to rely on theories rather than facts they could have easily given us and made the show more interesting.

I don't believe that's the case because they've spent so many centuries living in a "dying" place that they no longer fear death. It's exactly as Yarik stated, they don't see death in the same way as Earthers do. For them to change that mentality almost 70 years into the war without any external factors (I doubt Ezcelant changed it) makes as much sense as Zeheart doing a 180 on us.

Kio isn't in denial.

Uh yes he is.

I mean the Vagans destroyed a portion of the Federation fleet with their fortress and Kio goes, "sob, how could they do something like that?"

I mean Kio was right there in Olivernotes and saw the Vagan MS gun down innocent civilians left and right so he's seen firsthand how ruthless they can be.

It's not like the Vegans are bad people or anything. Exceptions notwithstanding. The exceptions thing of course could also be said about the Feds. Take that guy who defected and killed his own allies to escape for example

That's like asking a republican politican about his past actions and him replying, "oh but you know my democrat rival? He did this and that" which doesn't exactly make him a better person.

And I don't see how you can use that traitor as an example since he "betrayed" both the Federation and the Vagans. He was just in it for himself. Pretty sure the Federation didn't encourage him to betray them.

Blaming all Vagan soldiers for the events of gen 1 is no better than blaming all Earthers for abandonment and suffering of Vagans on Mars. AGE fails to properly address and explain it, but portrayal of Vagan military changed a lot since the beginning of the series, which can be clearly seen by comparing Luna Base officer to Gerra Zoi and his zombies. Also, i think it's important to note that for the most part Federation characters view them more as just other side in conflict than as space monsters who prey on innocents and need to be exterminated at all costs (as Flit does), so apparently from in-universe POV they (at least those who don't participate in Project Eden) are no considered wrong or evil anymore.

Which as some others have pointed out makes zero sense. Why would the Vagans do a 180 degrees from G1 to G3 just out of the blue like that with no explanation? Their goals haven't changed at all.

Even in Asemu's arc Flit tried capturing a Vagan soldier and the guy ended up killing himself.

Then during the Moon battle Seric made a note about how the Vagans no longer kill themselves as their identity is known but their identity have been known ever since the end of Flit's arc.

It's also the fact that the Federation treats the Vagans as another hostile faction instead of outright extermination sets them a lot farther part since they've been trying peace talks and compromise.

Which of course makes it easier for Kio since he only has to focus on getting one side to stop fighting....

[overloard]

It's just the problem of bad writing. Writers didn't bother to elaborate Vagans' reasons and motivations, so from viewer perspective most of the time they look like horde of brainwashed fanatics, yet in the show they often treated as sympathetic faction with valid reasons to fight. I think at this stage it's pointless trying to find a logic in Vagans' change of behaivor or prove that Kio is wrong in his methods and that Vagans deserve to be killed backing it with examples of their countless atrocities because it just doesn't matter anymore, the show explicitly tells us they are not wrong or evil, so that's it.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

I mean the Vagans destroyed a portion of the Federation fleet with their fortress and Kio goes, "sob, how could they do something like that?"

I mean Kio was right there in Olivernotes and saw the Vagan MS gun down innocent civilians left and right so he's seen firsthand how ruthless they can be.

You fail to mention how this makes Kio be in denial.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

That's like asking a republican politican about his past actions and him replying, "oh but you know my democrat rival? He did this and that" which doesn't exactly make him a better person.

So you DO understand what I'm saying. You are right, when Federations are making excuses for what they did to the Vegans, they're like "But the Vegans, have you noticed how cruel they're being?".

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

And I don't see how you can use that traitor as an example since he "betrayed" both the Federation and the Vagans. He was just in it for himself. Pretty sure the Federation didn't encourage him to betray them.

Zanald has also "betrayed" his own side without being encouraged to do so. I fail to see the point here.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dengar

You fail to mention how this makes Kio be in denial.

You really do need everything on a gold platter for you don't you?

Because he thinks the Vagans aren't that bad as others have made them.

Why would Kio go, "how could they do that," when he's seen them do "ruthless" acts to begin with? By this point he shouldn't be suprised or shocked. It's like seeing an Imperial Japanese soldier gun down civilians and then later they strap explosives to one and sends them at you (which is what happened in WWII). Should you be surprised?

So you DO understand what I'm saying. You are right, when Federations are making excuses for what they did to the Vegans, they're like "But the Vegans, have you noticed how cruel they're being?".

You really do love to make things up.

Since when did the Federation make up any excuses for what they did to the Vagans to them? (By that I mean your argument that "Vagans asre cruel)) The upper echelons who were involved made no excuse at all about it aside from the typical cover-up that it was a failed project. If that's what your saying then all of them betrayed the Federation for the Vagans to begin with anyways.

When Flit confronted the PM the PM made the argument that he was doing it in the name of peace (even though it was to save his sorry ass) and he believed in Ezcelant. He didn't say anything about Vagans are cruel.

Hell the Federation are the ones OFFERING the olive branch and aren't out to exterminate them and despite their corruption I would rank them a lot higher than the Vagans at this moment because they are willing to sit at the table. Kio would have his work cut out if the Federation was willing to amp up the artrocities committed by the Vagans (and he's lucky that Flit is his grandpa or he can at least rein in along with his comrades)

Zanald has also "betrayed" his own side without being encouraged to do so. I fail to see the point here.

I'm not sure what your trying to point out. You tried to say the Federation is bad by pointing out the traitors that went over to join the Vagans side. I'm not sure how a Federation guy betraying his own comrades to an army that guns down civilians is a good argument to say the Federation is horrible.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

You really do need everything on a gold platter for you don't you?

Personal insults, why thank you.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Because he thinks the Vagans aren't that bad as others have made them.

...He thinks they are human beings who have a right to live. And he isn't wrong.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Why would Kio go, "how could they do that," when he's seen them do "ruthless" acts to begin with? By this point he shouldn't be suprised or shocked. It's like seeing an Imperial Japanese soldier gun down civilians and then later they strap explosives to one and sends them at you (which is what happened in WWII). Should you be surprised?

The guy shot his own ally for no particular reason. That really doesn't measure up.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

You really do love to make things up.

More personal insults, thanks.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Since when did the Federation make up any excuses for what they did to the Vagans to them? (By that I mean your argument that "Vagans asre cruel)) The upper echelons who were involved made no excuse at all about it aside from the typical cover-up that it was a failed project. If that's what your saying then all of them betrayed the Federation for the Vagans to begin with anyways.

Uhm, ok, maybe I chose the wrong words here. I was trying to point out that the two sides really aren't that different from one another.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

When Flit confronted the PM the PM made the argument that he was doing it in the name of peace (even though it was to save his sorry ass) and he believed in Ezcelant. He didn't say anything about Vagans are cruel.

Hell the Federation are the ones OFFERING the olive branch and aren't out to exterminate them and despite their corruption I would rank them a lot higher than the Vagans at this moment because they are willing to sit at the table. Kio would have his work cut out if the Federation was willing to amp up the artrocities committed by the Vagans (and he's lucky that Flit is his grandpa or he can at least rein in along with his comrades)

I'm not sure where you're going with the first paragraph. As for the second, I'm not sure what olive branch you were talking about. And what table they were willing to sit around.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

I'm not sure what your trying to point out. You tried to say the Federation is bad by pointing out the traitors that went over to join the Vagans side. I'm not sure how a Federation guy betraying his own comrades to an army that guns down civilians is a good argument to say the Federation is horrible.

I was trying to point out that you can't really judge an entire population by the actions of one guy.