Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GDB

Sakura gets a route with a happy ending. Ilya gets none. Where's your championing now?

Actually, it's heavily implied (in the Hot Springs scene) that Ilya will find a way to survive in Fate, and her ending in HF True isn't actually particularly unhappy, since she sacrificed herself to save Shirou (and was smiling as she did so). Plus, at least Ilya fans know (well, except in Fate...), which is more than Sakura fans get.

But, in any case, I'm not aiming any of this at Ilya fans. I would far prefer if she got a happy ending too, but at least in her case her situation is acknowledged, and Shirou tried his best to help her. Plus, there's nothing that can be done for her (outside of Fate, and I think I've barely ever seen a post-Fate story (excluding the totally depressing ones) which don't find a way for her to survive and involve her, unlike Sakura who is often ignored totally), whereas Sakura is saveable, and further Ilya was never screwed over by the people who she loves and who love her back (well, Kiritsugu, I suppose, but Shirou at least tried to make up for that). Plus, the route which is worst for her is UBW, and that's the ending which pisses me off the most anyway, so all Ilya's fate does is give me an even bigger reason to dislike it....

What's unreasonable is that no one can bring up a route on this board without Sakura being jammed in our faces, or that someone else can't state their own opinion on HF without worrying about a two-page long post lambasting them for their opinion if it doesn't perfectly coincide with yours.

Well, this argument was not started by me, and nor was it escalated by me. What got this going was Endless Twilight calling my reasoning for disliking those endings "lame", as if I should just accept that Sakura is screwed and be OK about that. It's his fault, not mine.

[DragoZERO]

Illya dies an early death after Fate. She may have lived longer than we had original thought after learning about her true purpose, but it was an early death. It's what leads Shirou to become Archer. Yes, I believe Archer is Fate Shirou.

Also...

[RadiantBeam]

*sings* It's the debate that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends...

*shot*

[Otsdarva]

True fact: The only place I enjoy in the fate forum is the image thread, because at least there, there isn't any huge debates of Sakura.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Oh, come on, now you're just trolling....

As opposed to just calling others idiots, assholes and morons for holding a different point of view? Yeah, you totally have the moral high ground here.

You can't really expect someone to follow up on a serious argument after you behave like a spoiled brat that's just got their favorite toy stepped on. I'm just stooping down to your level is all.

I mean if what I said bothered you that much that you couldn’t help but want to go for a childish ad hominem argument, you could’ve at least been a little subtle about it at first. Then I might’ve felt it was worth humoring you for a little while, but instead from the start you acted as if I’d just murdered your parents for questioning a fictional character’s importance in two routes not her own. It gets a little hard to take someone seriously after that and my reaction to your every post henceforth has been basically this tbqh:

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Haak

As Cherry Lover pointed out. Sakura does have an effect in both Fate and UBW, but that's not the point. Your opinion is that basing your like on a story by just one character is a bad way to consider a story. But that's just an opinion. Personally, i see nothing wrong with it. And I don't see what is so wrong about it, either. You say that it's lame but you don't give a definitive reason as to why. You even admit that you understand that mindset but still think it's lame. I can understand if you see it as your opinion but the way you said it just makes it sound like you had an objective reason. And you know how Cherry Lover is.

I do? Well I do now I guess. I only just finished reading FSN a couple of weeks ago so I thought I’d drop by this topic and see if there was still any interesting discussion going on after all these years, but the moment I do I get pulled into this raging lunatic’s rampage, which apparently is the status quo for this thread and thus makes me feel for the regulars here.

And I never said my post was anything but an opinion. I do believe the mindset of disliking a route based on a minor character’s fate in it is silly, but I really couldn’t be arsed to seriously argue about something like “the correct way to read and enjoy VNs” so I presented it as a simple subjective point of view. Hence saying I understand the opposing one that Altima of the Gates (the person I was actually having a healthy and mature discussion with) defended, even if I personally didn’t think it was the best way to go about things.

Sakura is fictional character. She doesn't deserve anything because she doesn't exist. In HF, yes she is an important character. But the fact of the matter is that she was purely a minor character in both Fate and UBW. If you consider Fate and UBW as part of the whole story that is Fate Stay Night, then yes you're right Sakura isn't a minor character and her absence is jarring. But Endless Twilight was specifically talking about Fate and UBW, and I'm guessing he considers each route independant of one another.

Pretty much, yeah. It’s as you say, if we look at FSN as a whole then Sakura’s definitely an important main character, but as far as Fate and UBW go, yeah, no. She’s a minor character in those, one who’s written out of the story very early into it. Those routes can’t fail for not giving her proper closure or a happy ending because they never tried to do so in the first place. That was never the point of Fate or UBW, which left Sakura’s story to be told in HF.

Therefore hating those entire two routes for not adressing the Sakura issue would be like hating Heavens Feel for, say, having Caster get destroyed in a miserable end in her first appearance, when she was rather important in UBW. It’s nonsense, because she wasn’t important to the story HF was trying to tell, and neither was Sakura for Fate or UBW’s stories.

I do see FSN as a whole, but I don’t mind if a character that was important in one route gets shafted in another, as long as their role and story is satisfactory in the route that truly focused on them. And Sakura’s role and story were very satisfactory in HF IMO, with her being far more important to its story than, say, Rin was for UBW's, which was indeed more about Archer than her.

And Cherry Lover don’t bother quoting this post and dividing it into little sentences to try and disprove each one of them separately. Well you can do it just don’t expect a response, because Haak's the one I'm interacting with here and I've got better things to do with my time than wasting it on the likes of you.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, this argument was not started by me, and nor was it escalated by me. What got this going was Endless Twilight calling my reasoning for disliking those endings "lame", as if I should just accept that Sakura is screwed and be OK about that. It's his fault, not mine.

It’s amusing that you can say that with a straight face. If you go back and look once again at the start of the argument, you’ll see that I was adressing Altima of the Gates the whole time, and mostly just dismissed your classless blabbering right off the bat, because I know a fruitless argument when I see one. You’re clearly not the kind of level-headed individual one can have a civil much less pleasant discussion with, so I merely continued to adress Altima’s (and now Haak’s) posts alone, disregarding your own other than playing them for laughs. But you kept at it and replied to posts that weren’t even directed at you just so you could continue to unleash your butthurt fanboy’s fury on me. And as I’ve said before I’ve got better things to do with my time. The fact that I’ve indulged your little rampage this much is already bad enough tbqh.

Oh and just for the record, Sakura is one of my favorite characters in FSN. Go figure...!

[LostHanyou]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Therefore hating those entire two routes for not adressing the Sakura issue would be like hating Heavens Feel for, say, having Caster get destroyed in a miserable end in her first appearance, when she was rather important in UBW. It’s nonsense, because she wasn’t important to the story HF was trying to tell, and neither was Sakura for Fate or UBW’s stories.

I do see FSN as a whole, but I don’t mind if a character that was important in one route gets shafted in another, as long as their role and story is satisfactory in the route that truly focused on them. And Sakura’s role and story were very satisfactory in HF IMO, with her being far more important to its story than, say, Rin was for UBW's, which was indeed more about Archer than her.

This is a rather flawed way of thinking. If Shirou was somehow able to save Ilya in every route but only tries in one, I would favor that one route he at least attempts to be an actual superhero in. Which heroine is the main character in that particular route doesn't matter. And, well, the Caster analogy doesn't work at all.

It's easy to see why, after reading the routes numerous times, it becomes blatantly apparent that Sakura is steadily getting shafted in every route when it could have been avoided. Rin and Saber at least get somewhat of a resolution in every route. Yes, Saber gets boned in the main ends of HF, but she also has the sparks liner high bad end. Sakura has getting continually raped while Shirou is being a terrible superhero. There's just a huge hole in Fate and UBW that simply isn't filled at all, and I don't know whether Nasu intended for it or not (he probably did), but it really bothers a lot of readers such as cherrylover and myself, to the point the other routes do seem fucked.

I actually have to forcefully pretend Sakura no longer exists just to enjoy UBW and Fate, because everytime Shirou utters an arrogant line about being a superhero, I want to rage at him for ignoring the person closest to him in all her suffering. Not everyone feels this way, but it seems completely valid to me.

[Flinch]

I didn't start this one, and I wasn't trying to troll; I was cracking a joke, albeit, it might not have been the best one. I'm staying out of this one... I mean it this time.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

This is a rather flawed way of thinking. If Shirou was somehow able to save Ilya in every route but only tries in one, I would favor that one route he at least attempts to be an actual superhero in. Which heroine is the main character in that particular route doesn't matter. And, well, the Caster analogy doesn't work at all.

It's easy to see why, after reading the routes numerous times, it becomes blatantly apparent that Sakura is steadily getting shafted in every route when it could have been avoided. Rin and Saber at least get somewhat of a resolution in every route. Yes, Saber gets boned in the main ends of HF, but she also has the sparks liner high bad end. Sakura has getting continually raped while Shirou is being a terrible superhero. There's just a huge hole in Fate and UBW that simply isn't filled at all, and I don't know whether Nasu intended for it or not (he probably did), but it really bothers a lot of readers such as cherrylover and myself, to the point the other routes do seem fucked.

I actually have to forcefully pretend Sakura no longer exists just to enjoy UBW and Fate, because everytime Shirou utters an arrogant line about being a superhero, I want to rage at him for ignoring the person closest to him in all her suffering. Not everyone feels this way, but it seems completely valid to me.

Another Sakura debate. It's been a couple days since I last saw one. Must be a new record...

Anyway, you really can't blame either Shirou or Rin for Sakura's situation, since they don't know. Sakura makes certain that Shirou knows nothing about what she's going through, and all he knows is that her brother's a violent dick. Rin, too nows nothing about Sakura's situation. Yes, she is ware that Sakura is only happy around Shirou, but in no way can that possibly translate to 'She's being abused and raped by worms, Shinji and Zouken.' She doesn't communicate with Sakura as a sister, but she has her reasons, some of which are because of her responsibilities as a mage, some because of her own issues, and it isn't really fair to blame her for either.

Yes, Sakura's fate is left vague in Fate and UBW. You can always just say that they couldn't add her story in because they didn't want to spoil HF or whatever. The simple fact of the matter is that in Fate and UBW, Sakura is a side character. That isn't an indictment of her as a character, but just simple fact, so it's pointless to say she's getting shafted in those routes. The stories of Fate and UBW simply have not all that much to do with her. If anything, after Fate, Shinji's dead, so she won't be getting raped anymore. She's still stuck with Zouken, but he might not be as hard on her without the obvious goal right there in front of him. Also, Illya's there and she seems to have some idea of what's going on, so her prospects aren't that bad. In UBW, from that scene with Gilgamesh in the worm room, it seems like Zouken's worm body got destroyed. Even if his Soul Worm is still in Sakura, if he has no worms to create a body and can't take control of Sakura, he's good as dead, and Shinji might not be raping her anymore, so she's not all that bad off. Not to mention UBW Rin and Shirou have the best shot of finding out, something's wrong. So really, it isn't all doom and gloom.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

This is a rather flawed way of thinking. If Shirou was somehow able to save Ilya in every route but only tries in one, I would favor that one route he at least attempts to be an actual superhero in.

Now that is flawed. You're letting your own personal view of what a superhero should be like cloud you to the other routes' merits. Fate and UBW Shirou attempt to be a superhero just the same and save many, many people by ending the war and destroying the Holy Grail in both. That's a fact. Just because you personally feel someone sacrificing hundreds to save only his squeeze makes for a better or morally superior superhero doesn't it make the absolute truth of the world. And the fact that you're seemingly inherently unable to appreciate any route whose themes and conclusions differ from your own personal beliefs doesn't help either.

And, well, the Caster analogy doesn't work at all.

Oh, why not? Caster is an important character in UBW but then gets screwed over as a minor character in HF. Much like Sakura is an important character in HF but gets screwed over as a minor character in the previous two routes. Sure, Sakura is also a main heroine, so it's that much more evident, but in the end the nature of the process is the same. Characters get a lot of attention in their "main route", but then get much less so in the other ones to compensate.

Like I said before, Archer is my favorite character in FSN, and he actually gets killed off-screen in Fate, without having obtained any answer or closure to his own hellish reality, remaining fated to repeat the same tragedy that tears away at him for the rest of his eternal existence. And you don't see me complaining about it. Why? Because Fate's story wasn't about Archer. UBW's was and his problem gets addressed and properly wrapped up in that one. Yet despite being a main character in UBW he still doesn't get a lot of screentime, much less a "happy ending" in Fate or HF by any stretch of the imagination. And that's all right, because those two routes aren't about him. You see, I possess the level-headedness to understand and accept that fact and I'm not biased and obsessed to the point of refusing to see the merits of the routes in which my favorite character gets screwed over, so don't you start telling me about flawed ways of thinking, mkay?

It's easy to see why, after reading the routes numerous times, it becomes blatantly apparent that Sakura is steadily getting shafted in every route when it could have been avoided. Rin and Saber at least get somewhat of a resolution in every route. Yes, Saber gets boned in the main ends of HF, but she also has the sparks liner high bad end. Sakura has getting continually raped while Shirou is being a terrible superhero. There's just a huge hole in Fate and UBW that simply isn't filled at all, and I don't know whether Nasu intended for it or not (he probably did), but it really bothers a lot of readers such as cherrylover and myself, to the point the other routes do seem fucked.

Only if you're obsessed with Sakura's character to the point of not caring about anyone else as long as she doesn't get the time in the spotlight you feel she's due, regardless of whether she's truly important to the intended plot of the route or not.

Fate and UBW are not about Sakura and Shirou being a good or bad superhero is highly subjective and HF Shirou's version of it isn't necessarily superior to his Fate or UBW ideal. That's the whole point of FSN, Shirou's ideal and dream to become a superhero and how he arrives at different paths and conclusions regarding it in each route. That's what makes FSN interesting IMO and denying Fate or UBW just because HF was more in concordance with your personal definition of what a "good superhero" is, and excuse me for hitting this same note again, a more "flawed way of thinking" than any I could've come up with. If realizing how to become the perfect superhero was easy, Archer wouldn't have come to exist.

I actually have to forcefully pretend Sakura no longer exists just to enjoy UBW and Fate, because everytime Shirou utters an arrogant line about being a superhero, I want to rage at him for ignoring the person closest to him in all her suffering.

Well, I don't, because, again, that's HF Shirou's evolution of the ideal. To save not as many as possible, but those closest to him. Fate and UBW Shirou never arrived at that conclusion (mostly because he was never put in a situation where he was forced to choose between one or the other like in HF) so his initial ideal is kept intact there. And that's fine, because if he ended up the exact same way in every route then there wouldn't even have been a need for routes in the first place and FSN could've been a single story alone.

[LostHanyou]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Now that is flawed. You're letting your own personal view of what a superhero should be like cloud you to the other routes' merits. Fate and UBW Shirou attempt to be a superhero just the same and save many, many people by ending the war and destroying the Holy Grail in both. That's a fact. Just because you personally feel someone sacrificing hundreds to save only his squeeze makes for a better or morally superior superhero doesn't it make the absolute truth of the world. And the fact that you're seemingly inherently unable to appreciate any route whose themes and conclusions differ from your own personal beliefs doesn't help either.

How is this relevant at all to what I said? Or how does saving Sakura in Fate or UBW suddenly mean other people are going to die? Quit making assumptions.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Oh, why not? Caster is an important character in UBW but then gets screwed over as a minor character in HF. Much like Sakura is an important character in HF but gets screwed over as a minor character in the previous two routes. Sure, Sakura is also a main heroine, so it's that much more evident, but in the end the nature of the process is the same. Characters get a lot of attention in their "main route", but then get much less so in the other ones to compensate.

Like I said before, Archer is my favorite character in FSN, and he actually gets killed off-screen in Fate, without having obtained any answer or closure to his own hellish reality, remaining fated to repeat the same tragedy that tears away at him for the rest of his eternal existence. And you don't see me complaining about it. Why? Because Fate's story wasn't about Archer. UBW's was and his problem gets addressed and properly wrapped up in that one. Yet despite being a main character in UBW he still doesn't get a lot of screentime, much less a "happy ending" in Fate or HF by any stretch of the imagination. And that's all right, because those two routes aren't about him. You see, I possess the level-headedness to understand and accept that fact and I'm not biased and obsessed to the point of refusing to see the merits of the routes in which my favorite character gets screwed over, so don't you start telling me about flawed ways of thinking, mkay?

... And what was Shirou supposed to do about Caster or Archer? Comparing Archer, Caster, or even Ilya to Sakura makes no sense at all because Shirou couldn't do anything about their problems except roll over and die. In none of those cases is a huge section of the plot missing because the main character irrationally turned a blind eye to a situation right in front of him; also known as plot/character induced stupidity. Which was my main point, Fate and UBW suffer largely because it irrationally ignores something that shouldn't have been ignored, I don't care about the route or the main heroine. Shirou himself states in HF that he subconsciously ignored what was going on with Sakura, and by all means that probably remains true in Fate and UBW. So yes I'm not going to like UBW or Fate as much. Shirou is either retarded (plot-induced stupidity) or a subconscious douche (character-induced stupidity) and either one gives me more than enough reason to like HF more than the other two routes.

tl;dr the characters don't act absurdly retarded for no particular reason in order to avoid the Caster plot-line like they do with Sakura.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Only if you're obsessed with Sakura's character to the point of not caring about anyone else as long as she doesn't get the time in the spotlight you feel she's due, regardless of whether she's truly important to the intended plot of the route or not.

Fate and UBW are not about Sakura and Shirou being a good or bad superhero is highly subjective and HF Shirou's version of it isn't necessarily superior to his Fate or UBW ideal. That's the whole point of FSN, Shirou's ideal and dream to become a superhero and how he arrives at different paths and conclusions regarding it in each route. That's what makes FSN interesting IMO and denying Fate or UBW just because HF was more in concordance with your personal definition of what a "good superhero" is, and excuse me for hitting this same note again, a more "flawed way of thinking" than any I could've come up with. If realizing how to become the perfect superhero was easy, Archer wouldn't have come to exist.

First, Sakura isn't my favorite character nor is she my favorite heroine. I fully support Ilya and her noble quest to make Shirou her new servant.
Second, I'm not going to answer this wild tangent about which Shirou is the morally correct superhero. It doesn't matter which version of Shirou it is, all three versions are crazy enough to try to save someone even if they can't, and people such as cherrylover and altima have constantly explained how obvious Sakura's predicament should have been for him and Rin.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

How is this relevant at all to what I said? Or how does saving Sakura in Fate or UBW suddenly mean other people are going to die? Quit making assumptions.

Oh it's quite relevant. You accused my way of thinking to be flawed, so I thought I'd show you how yours is much more so in return. But if you don't wanna get into that, fine by me.

And ah yes, it certainly is a great assumption to say other people were killed at the cost of saving Sakura in HF. Oh wait, it's already happened and I never said anything about it also being necessary in Fate or UBW. Seems like you're the one making assumptions here, or at least misinterpreting my words.

... And what was Shirou supposed to do about Caster or Archer? Comparing Archer, Caster, or even Ilya to Sakura makes no sense at all because Shirou couldn't do anything about their problems except roll over and die. In none of those cases is a huge section of the plot missing because the main character irrationally turned a blind eye to a situation right in front of him; also known as plot/character induced stupidity. Which was my main point, Fate and UBW suffer largely because it irrationally ignores something that shouldn't have been ignored, I don't care about the route or the main heroine. Shirou himself states in HF that he subconsciously ignored what was going on with Sakura, and by all means that probably remains true in Fate and UBW. So yes I'm not going to like UBW or Fate as much. Shirou is either retarded (plot-induced stupidity) or a subconscious douche (character-induced stupidity) and either one gives me more than enough reason to like HF more than the other two routes.

tl;dr the characters don't act absurdly retarded for no particular reason in order to avoid the Caster plot-line like they do with Sakura.

*sigh* So basically Shirou was "acting retarded" until he stopped subconsciously ignoring Sakura's issues and therefore Fate and UBW are automatically worse as a result?

Well... That's rather amusing considering HF Shirou only finally acted on Sakura's suffering due to the events that transpired in HF alone, such as meeting Zouken in person on the second day, which turned out to be the catalyst for everything else that allowed Shirou to finally consciously take notice of Sakura's problems (such as, you know, finding out about the Matou/Makiri being a family of magi or Kotomine outright telling him Sakura was "a women who knows many men" relatively early on in the war as well, etc).

The only reason HF Shirou stopped "being retarded" was because he was given a much larger and direct amount of information and evidence regarding Sakura's situation than in the previous two routes. That's the reason for the different routes, different things happen in each, and Shirou's thoughts and actions change as a result. Hating on two routes because Shirou didn't do anything about something he had much less exposure to than in the route he did is just ludicrous.

First, Sakura isn't my favorite character nor is she my favorite heroine. I fully support Ilya and her noble quest to make Shirou her new servant.
Second, I'm not going to answer this wild tangent about which Shirou is the morally correct superhero. It doesn't matter which version of Shirou it is, all three versions are crazy enough to try to save someone even if they can't, and people such as cherrylover and altima have constantly explained how obvious Sakura's predicament should have been for him.

Oh yes, terribly obvious. "She smiles a lot in front of me and her brother is kind of a dick... She must be getting raped by penis-shaped worms everyday!"

...Please. Her predicament was only actually made "obvious" to him in HF, thanks to Zouken's involvement, hence it being the only route he acted on it. If you think it was already obvious in Fate or UBW then you might as well start considering Shirou being retarded his true character, because he never did anything about it in HF either while he still only had the same amount of knowledge of the situation as he did in Fate/UBW.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Illya dies an early death after Fate. She may have lived longer than we had original thought after learning about her true purpose, but it was an early death. It's what leads Shirou to become Archer. Yes, I believe Archer is Fate Shirou.

Also...

Actually, it was hinted at in I think one of the character materials that her body coulcn't last long, BUT then Ilya herself says she might be able to do something about it, and then immediately glosses it over when Taiga asks.
*shrugs* Just like how many lick it takes to get to the tootsie-roll center of a tootsie pop, I guess we'll never know. :/

[RadiantBeam]

It's a shame that Nasu had to scrape the Ilya route from the game. He probably could have explained that little point of how Ilya could do something about her failing body... unless he made it into another route like Heaven's Feel.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

It's a shame that Nasu had to scrape the Ilya route from the game. He probably could have explained that little point of how Ilya could do something about her failing body... unless he made it into another route like Heaven's Feel.

Is it true hat he had a route for her and scrapped it? I thought it was just a joke.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Is it true hat he had a route for her and scrapped it? I thought it was just a joke.

No, she was originally going to be the fourth route and she got cut. I keep hearing it was a combination of time constraints because HF ended up longer than planned, and the fact that Type-Moon was now a legitimate company and including a loli heroine might have lead to serious legal issues. The content got divided between HF (Angra Mainyu, etc.) and Fate/Zero (Kiritsugu's past in the Fourth War).

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

It's a shame that Nasu had to scrape the Ilya route from the game. He probably could have explained that little point of how Ilya could do something about her failing body... unless he made it into another route like Heaven's Feel.

And what do you mean by that, hmm?
Ilya , by what she said more than likely has a huge amount of info she sits on, but as we saw in HF, unless she gets good reason to use that info she keeps her trap shut. She just doesn't bother and goes with her pre-programmed prime directive to open the gate.

" I was made to open the gate, no one told me to close it" speaks volumes. I'm sure more than ever, if she lost Berserker, the war ended, and Shirou found out about her conditiobn and told her to live she'd inact the contingency plan. Look through the story, she has the keys to it all, see my Ilya plan earlier in this thread. A genuine team up with her, Shirou and Rin, and the war is in the bag.

Also DragoZERO, yeah Ilya's route was scrapped

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

And what do you mean by that, hmm?

By which I mean that if Ilya's route was anything like how the finished product of Heaven's Feel turned out, it would be so soul crushing and rage inducing that I couldn't even enjoy the "happy ending" of True End. Then again, this is Nasu we're talking about.

[Haak]

I'm annoyed there's no Ilya route. I would've loved to see more development between Ilya and Shirou's relationship. The other relationships have their plus and minuses but Ilya's and Shirou's is the relationship I found most interesting. (Though I'm quite sure it would've went an entirely different direction to the one I'd prefer.) Well in the least she deserves the award for having the most Shirou kills. XD

Originally Posted by Endscape

Anyway, you really can't blame either Shirou or Rin for Sakura's situation, since they don't know. Sakura makes certain that Shirou knows nothing about what she's going through, and all he knows is that her brother's a violent dick. Rin, too nows nothing about Sakura's situation. Yes, she is ware that Sakura is only happy around Shirou, but in no way can that possibly translate to 'She's being abused and raped by worms, Shinji and Zouken.' She doesn't communicate with Sakura as a sister, but she has her reasons, some of which are because of her responsibilities as a mage, some because of her own issues, and it isn't really fair to blame her for either.

I agree with this. I don't think either Rin and Shirou are to blame for Sakura having a tragic fate at the end of Fate and UBW.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

The only reason HF Shirou stopped "being retarded" was because he was given a much larger and direct amount of information and evidence regarding Sakura's situation than in the previous two routes. That's the reason for the different routes, different things happen in each, and Shirou's thoughts and actions change as a result. Hating on two routes because Shirou didn't do anything about something he had much less exposure to than in the route he did is just ludicrous.

To be honest I don't really think Shirou was any less retarded in HF than in the other routes. The only reason he objected to Saber fighting in Fate was because he was infatuated with her (and anyone will tell you that love makes you stupid. It just didn't mix well with his ideals). That obviously wasn't the case in HF. And whether or not killing Saber was an actual smart move is rather hard to decide considering we don't know whether rule breaker would've worked on Saber but I guess we can assume it was a practical move. And I know I make a lot of Stupid Shirou jokes but I think sometimes Shirou's stupidity is often exagerated. I don't think he's that stupid. Oh he's stupid. But not that stupid.

[Flinch]

You think you guys wanted an Ilya route?

You all knew it was a matter of time before I found this again.

Well, HF would've looked like pretty flowers in comparison; who really wants THAT many main characters to get screwed over?


Oh, and Shirou isn't dumb, he just doesn't look more than 2 feet in front of him. If he took a step back and looked at something with a different perspective more often, he'd be hailed as eing pretty smart.

[DragoZERO]

No Taiga route? Her family could have been one of the original magical families, before the Tohsaka's and all.