True Tears - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Ascaloth]

Blog article is finally up;

[RIUVA] True Tears, Episode 10

Yeah, real life strikes again. What do you expect when I could only view True Tears episodes earliest by Monday?

The thing about True Tears is that the interactions between the characters is starting to whet my appetite for sociological analysis, what with all the misunderstandings going on and all. Right now I have neither the time nor the sufficient level of skill in the sociological perspective to do a write-out on how symbolic interactionism drives the actions of the characters in this show, but one of those days when I have a little more time...

[monir]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

......the sociological perspective...... on how symbolic interactionis drives the actions of the characters in this show, ...

Very well put!! That element is the prize of this show, and pretty much the main reason why I've pretty high opinion of the content regardless of the cliches or the genre. I can actually understand a character (and even dare predicting about the next course of action ).

[vio5555]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

It's not right to expect these characters to "grow" from their respective flaws, because they're so ingrained. It's not really what the story is about. There's character development, but it's not in the obvious "he or she will be a better person for their experiences" direction. Hence the subtlety I was talking about. Most of the characters have changed in some way from the beginning of the series, but trying to pigeon-hole these changes into "good" and "bad" oversimplifies the situation. I think the expectation that one should take a rational approach to the mistakes one makes in relationships, so as to learn from those mistakes, is probably what keeps people like myself from truly connecting with these characters. It's not so much that characters are repeating the same mistakes over and over, it's more the fact that they don't choose to necessarily acknowledge those mistakes. For me, that's what defines a character, but it's simply not the point here, so it's not right to expect this to happen.

Take the relationship between Hiromi and Shinichiro's mother for example. ...These are the sorts of questions that I, myself, just can't help but ask, but a strong argument could be made that the point of the show simply isn't to answer them. The point of the show, I suspect, isn't so much about character development and resolving flaws and troubled relationships. It's almost above that, and more about the twisted knots and tangles formed by the relationships of a group of flawed or confused or troubled characters that aren't so much driven by reason as they are by emotions. Or so as I see it. I'd be interested in seeing what others think the point of the show is.

But that's why I haven't been totally won over by this show. I admire what it's doing, but I'm not in its target audience. I can't help but look at these characters and think "why on earth would you do that" or "I can't understand that decision". I can't separate out enough my own expectations of what a good anime entails (ie, "good anime has likable characters, end of story"), even though this series clearly isn't aimed at that particular idea. These characters are just too flawed for me... but that doesn't mean I can't sympathize with flawed characters. These ones just follow a thought process that is too far removed from my own.

@ Sorrow-K (I put the main lines I had disagreement with here...)

I think you have an interesting take on the show from a more disinterested fan's point of view but I don't really understand what your expectations for the show were originally, and I do think your argument runs into problems by the end since you didn't contemplate other forms of character development...

You acknowledge that the characters are acting very much like humans in the bulk of their irrationalities (and I do accept that this makes them harder to identify with than the more narrowly defined characters that you see in most animes who are far closer to shades of black and white archetypes than the many shades of gray in true tears), but then you say that the expectation is that they should take a rational approach to the mistakes one makes in relationships.

To be fairly honest the show would just be 13 episodes of Hiromi and Shin dating were that the case.

As to the point of the show, I think again you're seeing things in too black and white terms for the character development (but its just an opinion so there's no right or wrong here). Do changes really have to be just "good or bad or simplifiable" (since all you did was deny that it deals with those simple situations and I'll give you that you're correct in that regard)? But let's be more proactive here:

It seems that the character development on this show is based on the theory that the experiences in True Tears will make each of the major characters more complete (in terms of range of emotions and experiences, and general outlook as a result), and that is the goal that is being achieved over time. Noe's time essentially stopped way long ago, and Jun's zealous overprotection has prevented her from experiencing anywhere near a full range of emotions, for example. For Noe, the whole of True Tears has been about expanding her horizons and really finding what it means to love someone and experience loss (as I mentioned earlier in bringing up Alfred Lord Tennyson's quote about love and loss which is a perfect encapsulation of this series in my opinon).

That in itself is a mixed bag; surely there's a lot of pain and sorrow in love as well as happiness. I think that "making characters more complete" as a goal is one of the hardest types of themes to get in tune with, due to the subtleties involved as you point out...

Also, by the end of 10, I think we have a lot of the major characters beginning to change and become more complete from their experience thus far, from Ai and Nobuse in struggling to get over the relationships to Hiromi and Shin realizing what they want and have to do. Noe as well is really beginning to blossom to some extent in her interaction with Shin as she's coming to terms with what she's feeling. The only major character that we really haven't delved into where his true nature lies (but will in 11) is Jun, and we should really get a window into where he's going by 11. I think you're also maybe not giving credit to the fact that virtually every major character (with the exception of Jun as outlined above) is experiencing and adapting to things by episode 10 in ways that are totally different from their earlier reactions. I don't see how you still drive the line that they're simply "continuing to repeat past mistakes again" by episode 10... if you acknowledge what I'm saying.

I think the above deftly deals with the issue of Shin's mom. To be honest she really was just a roadblock and you do mention several of the remaining questions there, but again, are they really that important?

If the point of the show is to fully complete Noe, Jun, Shin, Hiromi, Ai, and Nobuse as characters (with a broader range of experiences and emotions than before), then I think it'd just be a big distraction to focus on Shin's mom. That's why I think your take is off in saying that it's purely about the "twisting relationships" and not about "character development". That line is the hardest one I had resolving since on the surface it seems totally incorrect if you accept my reasoning that the character development is driven by a need to see what and who these characters will truly be after experiencing and absorbing the events of True Tears. I think the result of your thoughts is a direct consequence of not having considered character development in some shades of gray.

I guess I can see where you're coming from since I think you might have missed the crux of the character development (or so your post indicates from a lack of its presence) and didn't really identify with the characters as being too human in a sense..., but still I don't know how you could possibly enjoy a character driven drama if you're not in tune with what the show as a drama is doing with regard to those two aspects.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Too many good posts for me to respond to. I agree with much of Sorrow-K's analysis, but I have an exactly opposite reaction: I can sympathize with all these characters precisely because they do have intractable faults. That makes them like real human beings rather than normal shounen cartoon characters.

And I do think the characters have all grown. Shin is breaking out of his diffidence and lack of confidence. Noe has learned what it is to love, and will learn to cry. Hiromi finally admits her feelings for Shin -- at least to some extent. Shin's mother realizes how she has been mistreating Hiromi. Nobuse comes down from his drunken dream of love. Ai begins to express her real feelings -- for a while, at least. Jun? Not sure. None of these characters has reached perfection, but perfection is not available to real humans.

And much as I agree with a lot of what golthin posts, I disagree completely that ep10 could have been the ending. That would make this a more ordinary show. Having three episodes to reach a real emotional conclusion elevates this to a higher grade of dramatic art, for me. As I said about Simoun, having episodes after the basic plot resolution allows a fuller emotional resolution, both for the characters and for us.

As for DanielSong's complaints, I think he goes too far but I do have one similar complaint myself. I think the sibling/nonsibling thing ended up as just a random plot device (unless there is another shoe to drop). As I've said, I really can't believe that a woman like Shin's mother would have made up such a story. But despite the foundation of sand, I think the director has built a solid edifice. DanielSong says there are plenty of other shows to watch, but in my opinion there is no other show on right now that is at anywhere near the level of this one, and that includes shows I am enjoying, such as Clannad, KimiKiss, and Spice & Wolf.

[golthin]

Well, I watched the episode again and the "I am moving on from You" line fits better. It is not a pass tense that Aiko used but a thing she is doing right now. So I actually take my previous words and Aiko didn't lie! She is basically telling Shin that she is trying to forget him, so I now understand why It seems that Aiko is still will have more screen time! Kaoru choju called me on that and she is right. Now I feel better because Aiko is actually trying to forget about Shin though she is not there yet. That idiom they used is really hard to translate and I can understadn how they used "graduated" instead of "Moving on" but the "Wo suru" really is whjat tells us that she is just doing it and not done it yet.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by golthin

I am going to be honest! To me episode 10 would have been the perfect ending for the show!

I forgot to say on a previuos post that the authors might be trying to set up a good ending by making episode 10 feel like the final episode. Track 30 of the True Tears OST was only played halfway during episode 10, I have a hunch it will be played completely on the final episode.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

But despite the foundation of sand, I think the director has built a solid edifice. DanielSong says there are plenty of other shows to watch, but in my opinion there is no other show on right now that is at anywhere near the level of this one, and that includes shows I am enjoying, such as Clannad, KimiKiss, and Spice & Wolf.

I like your opinion and I think we're on the same boat. True Tears has already surpassed sola as my most favourite romance anime. Other romance animes I'm currently watching: Spice and Wolf, Full Moon wo Sagashite, Clannad just doesn't reach the level of this anime. The only anime that True Tears has not decreased my enthusiasm to watch on my currently watching list is Shana, because Shana is a different genre.

[KholdStare]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

As for DanielSong's complaints, I think he goes too far but I do have one similar complaint myself. I think the sibling/nonsibling thing ended up as just a random plot device (unless there is another shoe to drop). As I've said, I really can't believe that a woman like Shin's mother would have made up such a story. But despite the foundation of sand, I think the director has built a solid edifice. DanielSong says there are plenty of other shows to watch, but in my opinion there is no other show on right now that is at anywhere near the level of this one, and that includes shows I am enjoying, such as Clannad, KimiKiss, and Spice & Wolf.

Yup, you said it completely right. I thought that the main "plot" will be the uncertainty of their sibling relationship, but that was pretty much over in 2-3 episodes. And what I thought was the main plot turns out to be a made up story, so that's...pretty bad. It's like building up momentum and say, "jk, lol, sux2b u."

And yeah, there's not really many good shows this season. In fact, I'm so bored that I'm going to attempt to start Air and rewatch both Kimi ga Nozomu Eien and SaiKano at the same time. I'll post again if I haven't gone emo or something in a couple of weeks.

And also I'm glad the whole Miyokichi x Aiko thing got sorted out.

[grey_moon]

@SK & vio5555 - Nice posts. After reading them (and watching the epi again a few times), I think I worked out why this epi fizzled for me:

My personal fixation on Shin's mum: Her 180 in her behaviour just annoys the bleep out of me. I just can't get out of my head the change in behaviour without a decent explanation. Yeah yeah I know the show isn't about her.

Ai moving on: She got freed from her relationship with Nobu, the growing up and moving on from Shin is refreshing to see, but it just doesn't sit well with me for how I expect her character to react.

Jun going stalker mode: I knew it was going to happen, but just didn't like how it was executed.

Shin chasing after Hiromi was so over dramatic, instead of creating a wowowow moment for me I was left scratching my head.

I guess all these little things added up and left me feeling a little hollow over this epi.

One thought:

Shin's actions after the crash says he just thinks about Hiromi, but his constant references to the chicken story says to me he is confused and doesn't yet know which girl he wants.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Ai moving on: She got freed from her relationship with Nobu, the growing up and moving on from Shin is refreshing to see, but it just doesn't sit well with me for how I expect her character to react.

Depending on what version of the show you watched, one make it seem like she already did it, the other is more accurate and indicate that she is going to move on, but has not yet done it. I can't not say what version is more accurate because of rules, I only can say the first one to be available was less Accurate.

[germanturkey]

well, they still haven't done the confession yet. we all thought it would come when Hiromi was running towards Shin, but it didn't happen. there's room for one or two more twists before Shin and Hiromi solidify their relationship.

i still can't for the life of me make an educated guess at who Hiromi says "i'm not the one you love" to...

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by germanturkey

i still can't for the life of me make an educated guess at who Hiromi says "i'm not the one you love" to...

Spoiler for my guess:

@jun re: noe aka siscon

[SnEptUne]

Cheesey episode. Why on earth would someone chase a truck with a bike on a snowy day? It isn't like he can't talk to her tomorrow. Thus, I would say that the execution is poorly done. They should be more realistic and have Shin bidding goodbye in front of the house instead of in the middle of a road.

On the other hand, Noe seems to be losing her wit, and nothing unexpected is happening to Aiko.

Overall, there isn't anything extraordinary. I like symbolism, but I just can't see any references in this episode.

Although I agree with Kaoru Chujo that faults make the characters more human, but that does not meant they must have faults. Afterall, what is the point of a story if it is just a journal about a person's life? And what annoys me is that the characters don't even seem to get what they have done wrong. Perhaps, they are just being "irrational" humans, which is why I despite humans and can't understand human emotions.

Hopefully, the next two episodes will explain their actions and give more depth to this story.

[HayashiTakara]

Sigh, poor Aiko, oh well, glad she's moving on and showing the kinda class you would expect from a great chick like that... but, is it just me or does the last scene makes you think she's not really over it yet? Oh well, we'll find out soon enough.

Really, the show could've ended here, but then again the whole Noe and Jun thing needs to be resolved... man, I really don't know where this whole thing is heading... at least its only a couple of episodes left.

[SnEptUne]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Sigh, poor Aiko, oh well, glad she's moving on and showing the kinda class you would expect from a great chick like that... but, is it just me or does the last scene makes you think she's not really over it yet? Oh well, we'll find out soon enough.

Really, the show could've ended here, but then again the whole Noe and Jun thing needs to be resolved... man, I really don't know where this whole thing is heading... at least its only a couple of episodes left.

Indeed. I just hope it wouldn't end with Noe having relationship with her brother. That would creep me out.

But maybe I am sadistic, I generally don't like romances that ended "happy", as that isn't possible in real life without compromising and delusing yourself.

[Sorrow-K]

@vio5555

I can see that the characters are undergoing changes. I have no problems recognizing the ways in which the characters have changed over the course of the show (Hiromi undergoing the most drastic change.) The type of character development that these characters are undergoing is reasonably unique to anime, because there's such a grayness to it, as you point out. The fact that these characters are so driven by emotion makes it all the harder to truly connect to them. And, as you say, being able to identify with the characters is such a necessity for character-driven drama.

As far as that genre is concerned, I've always been a big fan of Kasai's works, particularly Honey & Clover, but the grayness and complexity in that anime (as well as in most character-driven dramas in anime) is more to do with characters being forced to make decisions they wouldn't necessarily make due to the dilemmas they face. Here, the complexity is intrinsic to the very characters themselves.

And I didn't say that these characters are repeating the same mistakes over, since that hasn't really happened. My problem is that there doesn't seem to be a recognition from the characters when they have made mistakes. There have been in some cases. Aiko, for example, subtly recognized that she made a mistake not just with Nobuse, but with falling in love with Shinichiro in the first place, and tried to address it by telling Shinichiro that she's moved on from him. Whether it's the truth or not is hard to gauge, but the action indicates that she seems to understand that she misread how both Shinichiro and Nobuse would react within their respective relationships with her, and how their relationships formed a tangled web because her plans for the two of them weren't properly thought through. But then there are other characters, like Shinichiro's mother, who just hasn't seemed to have acknowledged that her actions strained a lot of relationships of people around her. And Hiromi, who hasn't seemed to have acknowledged that her relationship with Shinichiro was strained in part because of his mother. Shinichiro doesn't seem to have acknowledged that his "conspiring" with Jun has hurt both Hiromi and Noe (particularly Noe). It's almost as if they're free of accountability because, for one reason or another, they've had no cause to admit their mistakes.

Generally speaking, I think the types of characters one can sympathize with depends significantly on one's own experience. Take Honey & Clover, for example. We've all had that feeling of unrequited love at one time or another, so it's easy enough to understand what the characters in that show were going through. More than that, though, there were quite a few aspects to the characters and events that I could genuinely sympathize with because I'd either gone through something similar myself, or I knew someone that had gone through something similar themselves. So, the events and characters really hit home in that series. True Tears doesn't have that luxury for me. There hasn't really been an event where I've thought to myself: "ha, I know what that character is going through, I've been through that myself".

Sympathizing with characters is highly dependent on how much you can see of yourself within them (or, more importantly, vice versa), as well as your own experiences, your own relationships, and your own personality. Chiaki in Nodame Cantabile is a character I really heavily sympathize with purely because there are a lot of aspects to his personality that mirror my own. A counter example I remember happened one time when I was watching the film "In The Bedroom" with my mother.

Spoiler for In The Bedroom:

After watching this film, I couldn't understand the pay-off to the father character (played by Tom Wilkinson) killing the man who murdered his son. As far as I could see, justice was inevitable, even if it was diluted and they'd have to wait a long time for it. I couldn't see how murder was justified in this case. Even if they managed to off the man who killed their son, how would they deal with it if his body was ever discovered and they were suspected? How would they sleep at night knowing that knock on the door could come at any moment? That's not even without considering the ethical questions of when murder is justified. My mother took a completely different approach. She said, she totally understood why the parents would want the murderer of their son killed, and thought they were well within reason to take the law into their own hands and commit murder themselves.

It's an ethical dilemma that different people are going to look at differently, and how people approach it will be heavily dependent on their own life experiences. You're more likely the sympathize with the quandary presented in that film if you are a parent yourself, I strongly suspect.

Just as you're more likely to sympathize with the characters in True Tears if you find a similarity between yourself and them. I don't think True Tears is a bad anime by any stretch of the imagination. I can see why people find it so fascinating. But not me, and that's purely because I can't see any aspects of myself in any of the characters. They're too far removed from my own experiences and my own personality.

[germanturkey]

Originally Posted by SnEptUne

Cheesey episode. Why on earth would someone chase a truck with a bike on a snowy day? It isn't like he can't talk to her tomorrow. Thus, I would say that the execution is poorly done.

you're missing the point. he was about to confess in her bedroom before she left, but she ran out on him just as he was. then he was in depresso mode sitting there while she was leaving. then he realized for himself that he was letting her slip away, and chose to chase after her.

not unlike the "girl is leaving for europe, guy chases her to airport" scenario. which, happens more often than you think.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

Track 30 of the True Tears OST was only played halfway during episode 10, I have a hunch it will be played completely on the final episode.

I've felt that way since I heard the track, The day the OST came out I posted this on AnimeOnDVD after listening to it, "Fuck it, I'm calling it now, track 30 "Afure Deru, Kimochi" is played when Shin and Hiromi finally get together". Of course that was mainly because of the second half of the song which hasn't been used yet.

Cloudninja summed up the song perfectly I believe in the music thread

The first half of that song has a wistful and hopeful quality to it that matched the episode 10 scene where Hiromi was talking about her memory of their time together at the festival and the reason why she decided to move into his house, because of Shin. The second half of the song gives a sense of triumphant happiness which matches what I expect in the last episode.

Originally Posted by KholdStare

Yup, you said it completely right. I thought that the main "plot" will be the uncertainty of their sibling relationship, but that was pretty much over in 2-3 episodes. And what I thought was the main plot turns out to be a made up story, so that's...pretty bad. It's like building up momentum and say, "jk, lol, sux2b u."

I always thought it was just a diversion/hurdle to give another girl a realistic chance with Shin, if anything I'm pleased that they didn't spend so much time on it, it would've horribly dragged on if this was 24/26 episodes long... I'm still hoping to hear the reason why Kanae hates Hiromi's mother so much, I would be disappointed if nothing more is done with that issue.

[vio5555]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

My problem is that there doesn't seem to be a recognition from the characters when they have made mistakes. [...] But then there are other characters, like Shinichiro's mother, who just hasn't seemed to have acknowledged that her actions strained a lot of relationships of people around her. And Hiromi, who hasn't seemed to have acknowledged that her relationship with Shinichiro was strained in part because of his mother. Shinichiro doesn't seem to have acknowledged that his "conspiring" with Jun has hurt both Hiromi and Noe (particularly Noe). It's almost as if they're free of accountability because, for one reason or another, they've had no cause to admit their mistakes.

I agree with the general thrust of your view that we as viewers do have a role in these kinds of dramas in finding a part of ourselves within the characters so that we can better understand their motivations and identify with them.

The one possible difference I might personally have is with how involved we're supposed to be in making value judgments on these characters (if I'm correctly assuming your position, and you can correct me if anything is wrongly implied).

As I said before, I understand why you care a lot about Shin's mom's role personally since you generally want to know that kind of thing and that's a part that you define in your role as a viewer, but I don't think we'll find common ground on that since I disagree out of hand in terms of preference (as I mentioned in my previous response, I think we should mainly be interested in Noe, Shin, Hiromi, Jun, Ai, Nobuse since they're not static characters like Shin's mom; and so I'll address them here). I'm not totally dismissing the more static characters; its just that I think any more of Shin's mom than her serving as a small obstacle to keep things moving would detract from the relationships between the "Big Six". (I'll admit that just dismissing Shin's mom isn't going to be satisfactory, so I'll cover it a little... even though she is just a plot device in some sense)

So now to what I actually want to say; I believe that we as viewers do have a responsibility to make sure that the characters are honest to one another but I think we also have to sift through the information pitfalls that they face before making those kinds of value judgments.

Yes, there is an issue of accountability here, but I don't know if it's our place to say that Shin can possibly even know what Noe is really going through, other than seeing some very very slight changes that he notices (and as you said, everything is very subtle in this series) in her in terms of slight pauses in her behaviors and whatnot, only Jun should know that at this point in the series since he's seen her in private. With respect to Hiromi, I think episode 10 should have answered those concerns since Shin did say "I'll make sure I'll do everything properly", but I don't really think he can deal with Noe's situation until 11-13 when the stage is set for it.

Now if by the end, if what Shin has done to Noe isn't really answered for since he doesn't find out or something along those lines, then I think your point will be valid, but as of now, I don't think he's gotten enough information about Noe's feelings to possibly be able to deal with Noe...

Hiromi's feelings with respect to Shin's mother; while I can see why you'd have a problem with how that relationship has gone, I just see Hiromi as being too kind and respectful to Shin's father to do anything to rock the boat in their house. Leaving is like her only option on that front so that she can find her own space.

I guess maybe we just don't agree on the definition of "accountability" since I see the characters facing up to what they did in the past with different actions in the future and you see them coming up short in that respect since its not really a hard form of accountability... where things are acknowledged and dealt with in more clear terms?

I also think its because I don't see the need for the characters to have regrets from these situations, which possibly explains a weaker threshold of accountability, (other than Shin's mom as an adult for being so particularly and intentionally mean), since I don't think their partners are going to have regrets when all is said and done...; for example, I really believe Nobuse would say "I'd choose to believe that we had something", if Ai came straight out and tried to apologize for the whole thing..., and I firmly believe that Noe will be the better for having experienced her love for Shin, regardless of the consequence (and on faith, I believe he'll deal with it properly in 11-13).

Either way, I think most of my points probably just center from a different school of thought concerning viewing these dramas, since I do make some far-reaching assumptions myself in the arguments that I outline above, and in that sense, I guess we're on the same page since we're coming to the series with different baggage.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Westlo

I've felt that way since I heard the track, The day the OST came out I posted this on AnimeOnDVD after listening to it, "Fuck it, I'm calling it now, track 30 "Afure Deru, Kimochi" is played when Shin and Hiromi finally get together". Of course that was mainly because of the second half of the song which hasn't been used yet.

Hopefully Shin and Hiromi get together in the end, though I'm leaving the window of thought open that Noe may still have a chance - however slim that chance maybe. The events on the 3 remaining episodes will decide.

I've asked a friend who's semi-fluent on japanese for the translations of two tracks. She said that "Kokoro Kasanete" (track 28) translates to "overlapping hearts" and "Afure Deru Kimochi" translates to "overflowing feelings". I think those two tracks fit Hiromi x Shin pairing very well.

[The Chaos]

The Ep Was Really Good...I Give it 9/10
I Liked Hiromi in This Ep