2010-12-19, 20:31 | Link #1961 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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I mean, I do think it was strange that she didn't do anything in eighteen years about Asumu. Maybe she did eventually off Asumu, but that's debatable. If she killed Asumu straight off, things would have gotten messy and Rudolf would probably have figured it out and held it against Kyrie. That would have been counterintuitive for her. |
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2010-12-19, 20:32 | Link #1962 | |||
The True Culprit
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Meaning that even though she was Gamemaster, she does not feel she got to fulfill that duty to her own satisfaction, and thus didn't acknowledge herself as Gamemaster. She never said it in Red, afterall. Quote:
So basically, either this is false, or everything we've been shown is a baseless lie, meaning that we were never given the clues to come to this conclusion, meaning Ryukishi is a bad writer. I'll go with the answer that doesn't mean that Ryukishi can't write. Also, the original Red line was better read as A Happy Ending Will Not Be Given. So there you go.
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2010-12-19, 20:38 | Link #1963 | |
Local Crackpot
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Somewhere?
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2010-12-19, 20:38 | Link #1964 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-12-19 at 21:27. |
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2010-12-19, 20:39 | Link #1965 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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c.) Being put under trial for mass murder and being executed by hanging? Exactly what proof she had that the bomb actually existed apart from the words of someone who's clearly mentally unstable and that clearly set up the whole thing to make the adults kill each other? Would you really trust such a person to the point of betting in it EVERYTHING that you have, including your own life?
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2010-12-19, 21:27 | Link #1969 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Age: 36
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I've been thinking about the concept that Shannon is a split personality and imaginary friend of Yasu, and I think it might be the other way around: Shannon is the real person, and Yasu is the imaginary personality she came up with.
The popular idea is that Shannon represents the imaginary ideal servant, who Yasu created so that he could look up to her. But if she had problems with insecurity, it might make more sense to imagine a worse servant who looks up to her, than a better servant they can look up to. People deal with insecurity by feeling better than others, not worse than others. And if Shannon was bullied, she might have created the imaginary Yasu to be bullied in her place, displacing all of her pain onto another person so it's "not happening to her." After Yasu became a witch, Shannon was left as a human. But it makes more sense for the real person Shannon to continue as the real person Shannon, than for the real person Yasu to walk up to Natsuhi and say, "My name is Shannon. You say my name is Yasu? I've never heard of anyone named that..." and continue without any problems. It's never said whether or not the bomb actually goes off in that world. |
2010-12-19, 21:30 | Link #1970 |
The True Culprit
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Except Shannon/Yasu doesn't have split personalities, and no one acknowledges Shannon's existence but Yasu in any meaningful way.
What, so everyone bullied a "Yasu" that only Shannon could see? Gimme a break. Even if Shannon wasn't a two-dimensional character it'd still be unbelievable. Also, it's most likely that Yasu's name is Sayo Yasuda, so derp.
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2010-12-19, 21:37 | Link #1971 | |
Local Crackpot
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Somewhere?
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Its when Bern implies that it also happens in Lion's world that her lies really do become shit. The spree alone is a stretch.
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2010-12-19, 21:38 | Link #1972 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Age: 36
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The other maids could have actually been bullying Shannon, and she just imagined that they were bullying Yasu. Just as Yasu/Shannon imagined she was talking to a real witch, and used actual magic to move keys. Another example of how theater-going reveals people subjective experiences, and not objective reality, is that flash of a red scene in which someone says Kinzo came up with the idea of stealing the gold. It's quite possible that Kinzo first wanted to steal the gold in objective reality, but in his subjective experience he changed it to feel better about himself. Sort of like when people get into a car crash, and it's really their fault, but they convince themselves it's the other guys fault. |
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2010-12-19, 21:40 | Link #1973 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I do think that everyone dies in Lion's world anyway.
It's the whole bomb and killer spree stuff that is false. @einhorn, there is one good reason as to why Shannon is definitely a mask and not the real person. Shannon is stupid. Being dimwitted is part of the character that has been constructed about her. You can fake to be stupid if you are intelligent. But you cannot fake to be intelligent if you are stupid.
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2010-12-19, 21:51 | Link #1974 | ||
The True Culprit
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So the idea is crap, get over it. Quote:
The thing about the Theatergoing Authority that Will uses is that it doesn't allow the person being interviewed to lie. They can give subjective experiences they genuinely believe, like Maria's magical beliefs, but they can't deliberately lie.
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2010-12-19, 21:52 | Link #1975 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Age: 36
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1. Kinzo put a warning sign on the clock, just in case someone flipped the switch by accident. From this, the siblings knew about the bomb. 2. Kinzo told one of the servants (maybe Genji) to go to the chapel VIP room and wait there, just in case someone really did solve the riddle, and congratulate/explain things to them. From this, the siblings knew about the bomb. 3. Kyrie and Rudolf were planning to flee the country, so there wasn't any need to remove the evidence. They did have that cash card that wouldn't leave any traces back to them. 4. Kyrie and Rudolf were intrigued by the strange and ominous switch in the grandfather clock. Following the wires sticking out of it, they found the stockpile of explosives and were able to figure out that it was an activation switch. If they know a lot about guns, it's not too huge of a stretch to imagine they also know about explosives. From this, they knew about the bomb. 5. Kyrie and Rudolf weren't acting rationally. They just snapped for some reason. Quote:
I interpret it the same way. Although both of us are, after all, interpreting what "Theatergoing Authority" means. I don't believe there's much in the TIPS or elsewhere that explicitly describes its mechanics. Last edited by einhorn303; 2010-12-19 at 22:35. |
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2010-12-19, 22:09 | Link #1976 |
The True Culprit
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Bern heavily implies the mechanics of the Theatergoing Authority. Besides, what the hell would it DO aside from fancy flashback effects if characters could lie to his face, and if it's just flashy effects, why the hell does authorizing it's use require a huge Senate vote to validate it?
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2010-12-19, 22:11 | Link #1977 | ||||
Local Crackpot
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Somewhere?
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The only thing I could buy is that the bomb wasn't armed at all, and #4 occurred. It still wouldn't make much sense because the murders of the adults would have had to occurred by then. Even moreso, how would they know when it exploded?
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2010-12-19, 22:17 | Link #1978 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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2) Why Genji would tell them about the bomb? 3) The cash card isn't supposed to exist in Lion's world 4) Let's be serious 5) This is exactly the kind of heartless development that people would hate to see.
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2010-12-19, 22:34 | Link #1980 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Age: 36
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I meant to write "3. Kyrie and Rudolf were planning to flee the country, so there wasn't any need to remove the evidence. They did have that cash card that wouldn't leave any traces back to them" in my previous post, but accidentally deleted part of it. Sorry if that confused anyone.
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2) Why would Beatrice tell them about the bomb? Possibly Genji tells them about it just in case someone accidentally flipped it, out of caution. 3) The cash card might have existed in Lion's world. There are lots of possible reasons for it existing. If it didn't, maybe they just wanted to take 500 pounds or so of gold ingots. That wouldn't be too hard to move onto a boat. If they carried 20 pounds each up the stairs, so 25 trips up the stairs, then pushed it the rest in 100-150 pound loads via wheelbarrow to make it go faster to the boat...they could easily do that in a few hours, then jet before the bomb went off. They'd have to wait until the typhoon ended, of course. Or they could have hid the gold in Kuwadorian, after pushing two wheelbarrows (one for each of them) down into the VIP room to make it go faster. 4) We don't know anything about the wires, or whether they're visible, or lead anywhere. It could be just that convenient. Also, *. 4. *. * I don't think "Let's be serious" or "People would hate to see this" are valid refutations of a possibility. Quote:
Still, I interpret Theatergoing Authority the same way as you. I know that the bullying servants use the name "Yasu" and not "Shannon," but that whole theater-going experience clearly has a large dose of Yasu/Shannon's delusions.. They could have been bullying her and calling her "Sayo/Shannon," but she just imagined/interpreted it as "Yasu". It's also possible Yasu is Shannon's real "actual name," not her Honored Name, but she hated it. Once the older servants quit, she went by Sayo. The Ushiromiya's would only call her Shannon either way, and Genji and Kumasawa both call her Shannon, so no one would notice a change in her "actual name" from Yasu to Sayo. Maybe there's some subtlety in Japanese characters here that I can't see that makes this impossible. |
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