Feedback: Thread Prefixes

[NoSanninWa]

One of the many new features of the forum upgrade is the ability to add a prefix to each thread. So far, the only prefix we have created is the MFI tag. It looks like this:

The really neat thing about this is that when you click on MFI, it will take you to a page where the term is explained. Any html code can be embedded in a thread prefix. There is a lot of potential there, but we're not sure how it should be used.

We'd like to hear some feedback from you as to what sorts of prefixes would benefit AnimeSuki. I don't think we want to have prefixes just for licensing and fansubbed discussion since those are part of the forum they are in. It would be redundant and we'd go insane having to change a thread's prefix everytime we moved a thread.

Prefixes I've thought of are Please, Help, [Manga Only] and Info, but I'm not sure how many of those are really ideal and I'm sure there are great ideas I didn't consider. Your thoughts?

[Ichihara Asako]

A [manga] prefix would be good in series sub-boards with threads about the manga source parallel to the anime. However, it's certainly not something I'd like to see over-done because it would become visually unappealing looking at a sub-forum index with all sorts of tags everywhere, but I like minimalism, a lot of people don't. >.>

I'm not sure what "Please" would be used for? Help and Info seem somewhat limited, depending on context. Info threads as in Q&A about a series with its own sub-board? Help in tech support, or how do you intend to use those tags? I think a lot of them are self explanatory (as long as people use descriptive thread titles.) The MFI thing is obviously useful, and a manga one could be. But overdoing it would be a little irksome. Just IMO. ^^;

[Kyuusai]

Maybe it's just so obvious that its lack of mention implies either its dismissal or acceptance, but I'll say it anyway... What about the "standard" threads in each anime sub-forum, such as image threads, merchandise and music discussion threads, etc., that all share some boilerplate introduction text?

I'm with Ichihara Asako in worrying about them perhaps being overused, but if it's just a few regular sorts of threads that appear in just about every anime-specific sub-forum, I can see it being not only handy for uncluttering headlines, but also for easily visually identifying the "standard" threads.

[SeedFreedom]

A manga prefix would be nice. I don't really like the idea of a please or help tag because i feel it would be too overused. I suggest maybe a Spoiler alert tag in the speculations, general character discussion, or Q and A threads though. If there was an info tag, it should be restricted to info from mods or admins, not for just anyone to slap on.

*my two cents*

[felix]

Originally Posted by Kyuusai

Maybe it's just so obvious that its lack of mention implies either its dismissal or acceptance, but I'll say it anyway... What about the "standard" threads in each anime sub-forum, such as image threads, merchandise and music discussion threads, etc., that all share some boilerplate introduction text?

I like the idea. Having just a simple word prefix; a sort of visual que to the content instead of 3-4 words if far more desirable. There's a added benefit, by adding a prefix you gain the ability to centralise the rules in one place. Thus, if not completly necesary the opening post can contain some simple info instead of DO this, Do THATs.

My own preferance/idea on how they should look:

• The Images of Haruhi Suzumiya (Requests for wallpapers, screen caps, artwork, etc.)
• (Images) Haruhi Suzumiya
  
  
• Suzumiya Haruhi Episode 9 Discussion / Poll
• (Episode) Suzumiya Haruhi Episode 9
  
  
• The Avatar & Signature Requests of Haruhi Suzumiya [Read Guidelines]
• (Workshop) Haruhi Suzumiya
  
  
• The Q & A of Haruhi Suzumiya
• FAQ Haruhi Suzumiya
  
  Other threads I don't see much point in prefixing...
  This is just my own personal bias of course =P

Q. Is it posible to make some prefixes public?

What I'm thinking are simple generalised thread descriptions, such as:
Question, Debate, Discussion, News, Movie, etc

[felix]

They act as links and are able to contain html tags, so they are more obvious and useful then their title counterparts.

[Solace]

I might be a little unclear on the concept, I get the MFI one, but what would be the gain from the other prefixes? What would they be used for, exactly?

[xris]

Originally Posted by The Small One

But there should be some sort of additional benefit, which requires it to use HTML, or else it could be placed inside the title.

I must say that I agree with you here. I not convinced the current suggestions are needed as prefixes at all. Even the MFI prefix is rather redundant since the info is already present in the opening post.

It seems people are mixing the use of a prefix with that of tags. FAQ, Info, Images would seem to be better implemented as tags.

As The Small One states, a prefix is best used when it adds some benefit, such as the URL link.

It doesn't mean that prefixes can't be used but they are new (for me) and I'm having difficulty in finding a real use for them in which tags wouldn't be a better solution.

[felix]

Originally Posted by The Small One

But there should be some sort of additional benefit, which requires it to use HTML, or else it could be placed inside the title.
I don't see, why a [Manga Only] Prefix should require some HTML-Code. Okay, you could add a link to an explanation, but I think that "manga only" is pretty self-explanatory. And as long, as there isn't a strong need for an explanation (or something else, that requires the addtional HTML), there shouldn't be some Prefixes, since placing the Info in the Title should be enough.

Originally Posted by xris

I must say that I agree with you here. I not convinced the current suggestions are needed as prefixes at all. Even the MFI prefix is rather redundant since the info is already present in the opening post.

It's not the most sophisticated or briliant inovation but it is in some respects better then the standard alternative we have now. For one placing any rules or additional information in the title usually means placing it after the title since anything more then a word placed in front would obscure the title itself.

The effect is every title looks different. If you go to almost any subforum, no matter how many Signature / Avatar threads you've seen you'll most likely have to search for one again, since they'll never have the same visual que, for example take these 4 image thread titles:

• The Images of Haruhi Suzumiya (Requests for wallpapers, screen caps, artwork, etc.)
• Zero no Tsukaima Image Thread (wallpapers, fan art, gifs, etc.)
• Vampire Knight - Image Thread (wallpapers, fan art, gifs, etc.)
  
  The naming has become more standardized but threads would be far more clear if the order of information was Purpose Title [Optional Info]

On the other side, if you say have become a frequent visitor of that particular forum/section, do you really care for all the extra visual junk attached to each thread?! Some titles are very VERY long and can become very annoying in time. I'm always wondering what's the point of the extra "(wallpapers, fan art, gifs, etc.)"; so it's said to be a Image thread, thus it's presumed and confirmed in the opening we can post anything! graphic related, what's the point of mentioning some more in the title?

And well, aren't they easier to use?

Originally Posted by xris

It seems people are mixing the use of a prefix with that of tags. FAQ, Info, Images would seem to be better implemented as tags.

That's not the point. It's all about presenting a lot extra information in a elagant form.
For example take the title Rape, it could be a movie, news story, debate, discussion, live action, etc

Placing that information as tags doesnt help.
I would have to hover over the tag icon thing then search the tag cloud; since there may be more then one tag.
For finding a quick indication of what the thread is meant to be (not what the topic is about) that's more or less useless.

[xris]

Originally Posted by Cats

The naming has become more standardized but threads would be far more clear if the order of information was Purpose Title [Optional Info]

For example take the title Rape, it could be a movie, news story, debate, discussion, live action, etc

None of you points address the issue as to why we should be using prefixes.

Purpose Title [Optional Info] can be fixed by changing or just re-order the name of the thread. What has prefixes got to do with this.

Why do we need prefixes for "Movie", "News Story", "Debate" when all that is needed is for the thread title to have these terms to be included.

Why complicate things by adding prefixes? I've yet to see any reason to add any of these suggested prefixes.

[felix]

You don't it's just an alternative others may like more then the current method.
I don't see them making anything a lot better or worse... although the links are kinda nice.

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by xris

Why complicate things by adding prefixes? I've yet to see any reason to add any of these suggested prefixes.

It's already complicated! What Cats said is that it would simplify things.

For example, instead of Zero no Tsukaima Image Thread (wallpapers, fan art, gifs, etc.), it would be shortened to (Images) Zero no Tsukaima. Then when you click on the prefix it would explain that it is a place for wallpapers, fan art, gifs, and anything else. It might also say that people should put their images in thumbnails. It could even then go on to explain how spoiler tags won't stop the page from loading a 500MB image.

And it does all this with a single prefix.

[Deathkillz]

I personally don't see a real problem with the prefixes being used or not as it won't affect older forum users like me.
Though I don't think it would look good if they are overused. Maybe for things like explaining what an MFI series mean but for images it is rather self explanatory (and that is what the first post is for). Standardizing sounds like a good idea but imo I would prefer if some uniqueness from the individual forums were kept.

[xris]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

For example, instead of Zero no Tsukaima Image Thread (wallpapers, fan art, gifs, etc.), it would be shortened to (Images) Zero no Tsukaima. Then when you click on the prefix it would explain that it is a place for wallpapers, fan art, gifs, and anything else. It might also say that people should put their images in thumbnails. It could even then go on to explain how spoiler tags won't stop the page from loading a 500MB image.

But this information should be in the opening post. Why hide it away in some separate link you need to click, why not put it in the post where it belongs?

Why separate things? Why not put the information where it is needed and where it belongs, in the thread itself. If (Images) Zero no Tsukaima is considered a better title than Zero no Tsukaima Image Thread (wallpapers, fan art, gifs, etc.), why not fix the actual problem and rename the thread? Why add a further layer of complication by the use of prefixes?

While I'm sure there are some uses for prefixes, I still see the examples suggested as being more complex and redundant.

[NoSanninWa]

I don't think it would necessarily be better. If it isn't better there isn't any reason to change our method, but it definitely does not look more complicated.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by xris

But this information should be in the opening post. Why hide it away in some separate link you need to click, why not put it in the post where it belongs?

Well part of the problem with this is that many people simply don't bother to read entire threads, especially once there is a page or two of responses built up. Having one place where the rules for a specific type of thread are located and then linking every single related thread to that one place might be useful due to being located right next to the link for the entire (image, episode, etc.,) thread.

I'm not advocating for or against the prefixes, I'm just pointing out that the first posts of each thread are often quickly ignored once the thread builds up steam.

[xris]

Originally Posted by Solace

Well part of the problem with this is that many people simply don't bother to read entire threads, especially once there is a page or two of responses built up. Having one place where the rules for a specific type of thread are located and then linking every single related thread to that one place might be useful due to being located right next to the link for the entire (image, episode, etc.,) thread.

I'm not advocating for or against the prefixes, I'm just pointing out that the first posts of each thread are often quickly ignored once the thread builds up steam.

If people aren't going to read the first post, then they aren't going to read the info provided in the prefix link. Heck, they might not even realise there is a link in the prefix since it isn't underlined

I would consider having the same info presented in two locations as confusing and redundant.

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

but it definitely does not look more complicated.

True, the look of the thread would be the same if the title was (Images) Zero no Tsukaima or if it had a prefix of (Images) and a title of Zero no Tsukaima.

(Images) Zero no Tsukaima
(Images) Zero no Tsukaima

I think the size of the text for the prefix might be a bit smaller that the thread title but I'm not sure. The look of the thread isn't the issue here.

While it doesn't look any the more complicated, I would say it might well create confusion. If I was viewing the thread in question and wanted to check the rules or thread guidelines, then I would just click on the link to the first page of the thread (this is the way it is at the moment without the use of prefixes). If this info was placed in a separate link via the thread prefix, then I would have to exit the thread and click on the prefix link to read the guidelines. Once I finish I have to return to the forum, find the thread I was reading and open it up again. That sounds more complex to me!

[felix]

Originally Posted by xris

While it doesn't look any the more complicated, I would say it might well create confusion. If I was viewing the thread in question and wanted to check the rules or thread guidelines, then I would just click on the link to the first page of the thread. If this info was placed in a separate link via the thread prefix, then I would have to exit the thread and click on the prefix link to read the guidelines. Once I finish I have to return to the forum, find the thread I was reading and open it up again. That sounds more complex to me!

Presuming there's a link in the first post as well, it would mean you would have to click the link. In the unlikely event they want to read the rules, and there is no link or rules in the first post, people would usually just hit back and click the link of the thread. But that's if, like you, they don't notice the change in the forum tree navigation when viewing the thread. You don't need to exit the thread to click the link in the prefix since it's visable and clickable on every page of the thread.

Prefixes with rules etc should be formated as the current MFI tag; as a acronyms. (dotted underline)

I don't see how for new memebers having a "[Read first post]" or "[Rules in first post]" is less obvious then just a link.
I also don't see how having the rules in the first post helps. Should you have 100 threads, you have 100 rules; even if the threads are of the same type.

[NightWish]

Firstly, excuse me if anything I'm about to say is blindly obvious. I'm just putting down my thoughts to explain how I would suggest we use/interpret/think about the prefixes and so people can correct any lapses in my thinking or point out something I've forgotten. Normally this sort of thing would have been mulled over by the staff a lot more before going to the community as a whole, but I suppose I think this feature would benefit from community "development", so here goes anyway...

Originally Posted by The Small One

Personally I was hoping especially for a set of icons to replace those ugly [MANGA-only], [SPOILER], [ANIME-only] and so on... tags.
It shouldn't even be a problem from the technical side... though it would probably take a few days to get the users accustomed to it.

Originally Posted by The Small One

Personally I don't really see much use in creating such kind of prefixes, since it's information, that could as well be placed into the Thread-Title itself.
Especially something like the [Manga only] worked well until now, so why should it now be necessary to create some sort of prefix?

The "thread prefix" feature offers a way of implementing an old request for new thread icons to replace in-title tags but without losing the ability to index the threads by the information (you can search on prefixes) and with the ability to add other information/links in-line. Making a thread both visually and logically searchable, in a more controlled fashion than is possible with keywords (tags).

The ability to enforce the their use (you can require that each new thread uses one of a set of prefixes, from a per-forum list), although useless for the Series Discussion forums now they are restricted, and maybe unhelpfully restrictive in a more general anime forums, could be useful in some of the technical, support, and feedback areas.

Originally Posted by xris

But this information should be in the opening post. Why hide it away in some separate link you need to click, why not put it in the post where it belongs?

Why not do both? In some cases the information conveyed by the prefix might be already bound up in the first post, but I see no disadvantage in offering more indexes, ways of narrowing the search space. You can search in thread titles and you can sort by thread title, but those are inefficient methods, by comparison. Not only at a database level (where it has to rely on full text indexes, and we all know the forum isn't great for this, where as a prefix-id will be a direct, less diffuse, database index) but at a user level also.

Granted there is a learning curve, but then there is with selecting which forum to post in too. Not everyone learns it but most^? of the members are fairly savvy and should pick up the idea quickly, more so if they helped define it. Once learned, by reading the first post, following any links provided, or possibly reading the FAQ (or any combination there of) members will probably become acquainted with the prefixes and be able to use them to navigate at-a-glance AND via the advanced search. While the new keyword (i.e. tag) feature does offer something like this, it does not currently provide a visual cue or same strict controls. The extra effort only really comes in at the definition stage, which is a good reason to get the community to say how they want to partition the forum up.

As I see it, the only trick with prefixes is coming up with a suitable list, one that that cleanly cuts the thread space horizontally; that is to say, partitions it into topics areas that, a) may exist in many different forums, or b) that cleanly subdivide a specific forum or set of forums, into logical sub-sections (in a way similar to the way a sub-forum does). If we assume the use of different "forums" separates, visually and logically, the otherwise unstructured mass of threads into distinct topics areas ("vertically"), the prefixes would partition the same space into alternative topics that cross the existing forum topic boundaries, or sub-divides them internally (i.e. cut "horizontally").

As a simplified example of their use, imagine we had no Series Discussion forums, this would put all those threads into one or other anime discussion forums. If each thread is prefixed with a series name, the threads could still be searched and browsed by series. Obviously this isn't a great example because the sub-forum structure is much more logical for this particular division. Maybe thinking about the unaired / fansubbed / licensed division handled in a similar way would get a little closer to the concept. In any case, either should some-what illustrate the point.

Originally Posted by Cats

Is it posible to make some prefixes public?

Define public? They are all public, though you cannot create new ones.

[felix]

I guess "how to use them" was the original topic.
Here's my personal opinion on it's use.

As far as I see we have two partitions. You have the individual series forums, where it would be more of a standard if used, and you have the independent forums where we are able to create threads to some extent.

For the first (the series forums) simple markings on commonly used threads should probably be as far as it should go. Something like:

• Workshop for what is currently Avatar Signature thread, but really a thread for requesting anything since there is no real limitation nor restriction imposed that I am aware of.
• FAQ for all those threads which contain useful information. While for most series this appears to be just the average Q&A thread, others sometimes have additional threads; eg. Higurashi, Lucky Star etc
  
  I strongly feel this should be made as a full forum standard due to the great number of such notice/rules/information threads all over the forum. The idea being, you don't have to visually search the forum for them, but can just search "FAQ" in a section to get them all.
  
  
• Merchandise self explanatory I hope.
• Images again self explanatory. Some threads in General Anime and Games may do well labeled similarly.
• Favorites for favorite character polls or otherwise similar threads.
• Licensed for discussing the licensing and announcement threads in that idea.

I realize there may be more but I don't really see other types of threads appearing in peoples searching or otherwise benefiting from being prefixed at all.

One last prefix I think would benefit those section would be a Episode prefix; but maybe I wasn't too clear on it's purpose, if it makes it sound clearer and more useful it could be named No Spoilers or something to that extent. Unlike the above prefixes it really has no value for indexing and/or as a visual que, but it and it's message will appear on every page of the thread and that would make it useful enough I believe considering how many have voiced complaints on spoilers many times before.

The situation for the second partition has less to do with defining purpose and more to do with grouping, sub-organizing and hinting.

If I remember right there was a request a somewhat long time ago for a New/Recent forum where presumably all the new series threads will go. Of course it never came to be, but the idea of knowing which threads are for series this season isn't a bad one.

A simple way to do this would be to, say, starting now label all new shows as New!, then when the next season comes the "New!" prefix is renamed to the appropriate season, like say: Spring 2009, a new New! prefix created and the cycle restarted. The full change should be evident after a few seasons, when you should see series of the previous seasons prefixed with their vintage date and series of the current marked as New!; series from before the systems implementation would not be marked, but I can't see a easy way to mark them with ought presuming infinite manpower available.

This idea can be taken a tad further in the interest of making information readily available.

The idea from which I started the above was the availability of a Recent forum.
While creating one is out of the question, there is a simple way to emulate the feel and functionality of a forum.

A simple search looks like a forum, if the results are ordered in chronological order and the search terms are precise enough. So adding a link to the prefixes with that sort of search query string as the url, would mean clicking each prefix (be it vintage date or New!) would take you to a sort of forum with only those threads in it, preferably.

For the AnimeSuki & Technology forums I would like to see a News, Discussion and Purchase thread prefix since these are not immediately apparent in the ocean of troubleshooting threads. The first in particular...

Similar to what I just said for series threads it would be nice if the link was set to a quick search.

For the threads in Fan Creation, presuming personal threads are the norm. A Discussion, Tutorial, Debate and Contest prefix would be nice. Note that by making them link to searches to themselves you now no longer have the need to manually index them, at least not on a this & that fashion.

For some of the other forums in Anime Related Topics I don't have much of a idea on what would help.
The Suggestion forum definably has no use for them as far as I see.

What remains is the General Anime and General Chat, which are more diverse then any other. Starting out with what has been requested in the past, a self-searching Live Action prefix, followed by a Fun prefix (which would include the current approved game threads and such) a Sports and Movie prefix, because of the need. A Personal/Introduction or whatever prefix would be nice for all those threads where people post about themselves, such as age, picture, location etc.

Specifically referring to the General Anime forum I would think of some sort of Poll or Opinions prefix, which do not by all means should suggest that the thread has a poll or such, but that it's one of those "Your favorite..." or "Favorite..." threads. Something to notice is that if prefixes are not overly abused in a forum, they can be used as a Ignore Me sign if the user is not interested in them.

Well that's all I can think off. I hope I made sense in most of it.
Please remember these are just my thoughts not some sort of request.

Originally Posted by NightWish

Define public? They are all public, though you cannot create new ones.

I did not test in the forums of the Anime Discussion section so I didn't realize we could add them.