Spice and Wolf - Q & A

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Attoney

This proves that Horo already has the power to make things grow to produce a good harvest before making the Parsoe pact.

It certainly makes sense that she would have that ability before making a pact with Pasroe, since there would be no reason to make such a pact otherwise. Her "friend" there was supposedly a pretty dumb kid (but lovable, according to her). She would probably have to demonstrate her abilities like in volume 4 for a character like that to want to form a deal with her in the first place.

Also, I believe her reason to go to and stay in Pasroe in the first place was because she wanted to find a place where she could belong (or a "friend" in her words). I'm sure being just one of many of her kind in Yoitsu wouldn't be good enough for a self-centered creature like her.

Given her loneliness she'd need to find a place like Pasroe that would not necessarily worship her (which she seems to hate), but would treat her like a valued member of the community (which she implies because that's why she left in the end).

That's why I don't think the pact means anything to her, because it's lost all of the value it once had.. not because it's some kind of tether keeping her there against her will. It seems like she was experiencing time more slowly in her spirit-form, and it took a long time to sink in just how vilified she had become in Pasroe.

[Rajura]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

I'm sure being just one of many of her kind in Yoitsu wouldn't be good enough for a self-centered creature like her.

Isn't that a bit harsh... proud and petty (at times) and definitely possessing a labile mood but self-centered? I mean she is fragile after her isolation. Her desire for companionship and attention... that may make her seem self-centered, but I think that coupled with her femininity speaks to something different and much deeper than a self-centered personality.

Maybe I'm just reading too deep into the comment, so I hope I did not offend.

[Attoney]

I get that the most probable reason for her to stay in Parsoe was because she wanted to find someplace where she belongs. However, can't she just do that with her own free will without making the pact? She can surely demonstrate her power by not making any pact.

I see no reason for her to bound herself into the land because if she really liked Parsoe then she would have stayed regardless of any pact. I just don't see any benefits in making the pact, which leads back to my question: What is the purpose of forming the pact with the parsoe boy?

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Attoney

What is the purpose of forming the pact with the parsoe boy?

I think Horo would only do so to ease the worries of the townspeople. After all, they're probably going to have a tough time accepting the presence of a harvest deity, let alone her reliability. At least pretending they have some control over her would make it easier for her to integrate. If she just arrogantly did as she pleased it's unlikely the townspeople would truly accept her, except out of fear - something that goes against her desires.

Originally Posted by Rajura

Isn't that a bit harsh... proud and petty (at times) and definitely possessing a labile mood but self-centered?

She certainly does seem egocentric, in that she doesn't seem to consider how others see or feel about things and all of her actions seem to be defined by her needs/desires. It's telling that most of the time she gets truly upset or frustrated it's due to Lawrence's "selflessness", as though such foreign behaviour is painful to bear.

I certainly wasn't intending for it to seem harsh It's just a personality trait to me, not something positive or negative in and of itself. It gives her that regal and god-like air, and explains her slightly narcissistic nature. Besides, the humans of the novels tend to be just as petty and self-centered...

[Attoney]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

I think Horo would only do so to ease the worries of the townspeople. After all, they're probably going to have a tough time accepting the presence of a harvest deity, let alone her reliability. At least pretending they have some control over her would make it easier for her to integrate. If she just arrogantly did as she pleased it's unlikely the townspeople would truly accept her, except out of fear - something that goes against her desires.

Hmm...that might be the case, but after skimming through Volume 4, I have discovered another possible reason. It seems for Horo to use her power, she needs to pay a cost, much like how she needs wheat or human blood to transform. And it also stated that she cannot use her powers for a long time nor on multiple plants(objects?). So the pact might be the cost for her to use her power, or maybe to enhance her powers within the reigon to help with the harvest. This will also make sense with the whole bounding herself to the land thing, as being one with the land may allow her to more effectively use her powers. Perhaps it might be a combination of both our reasons.

[tyranuus]

See and this is exactly why I love this forum, I go away for a day come back and loads more stuff for me to read

I'll admit I havent read the later books, and I'd completely forgetten Dianne's mention of Horo of the Wheaten Tale which adds a new leaning to things, although it could also simply be seen as Horo had done the same thing elsewhere as she did at Pasloe, and this is one of the reasons the kid she liked a Pasloe asked her to do what he did. Again, it may simply be that Horo is purely a deity/spirit related to Harvest, but it'd seem strange her form is that of a wolf which doesnt exactly tie into harvest symbology that I know of, so again I'd like to think even if it is her most famous talent, theres more to Holo than we know.

In regards to my whole line on the pact, I really am happy to be proved wrong on that line, I just tend to see it as perhaps reasonably important even if she is now in a position where she could easily break it, because a lot of the materials I've read tend to suggest pacts and agreements where gods and spirits are involved tend to be much more binding affairs than the civil agreements of mortals.

In terms of self centered....I wouldnt really go that far, I think sometimes its easy to forget she is after all a long lived spirit/diety,and a female rolled into one, that's bound to lend a slightly different perspective and viewpoint to the way you act in comparison to a normal person. Throw in Holo's obvious loneliness and her interactions have obviously been quite limited for some time, which is bound to lead to you accidentally forgetting the wishes and needs of others on occasion, because you've begun to subconsciously rely on only your own self.
Holos anger at Lawrences occasional selflessness may also be aimed at herself as much as him, because hes not acted how shes expected. Holo loves Lawrence, that much is clear, but I dare you to find any god or spirit thats lived for several hundred years and doesnt have at least an aspect of calculating in thier personality, it comes with the lifespan, as you'd begin to expect certain responses as rote for certain circumstances by certain types of people. Holo doesnt like being wrong
(for example most people expect politicians to be slightly dodgy people! haha)


Damn, want more of the novels to be translated now, all this talk of the novels I cant read is frustrating!

Oh and Im going to stick to my viewpoint that Holo is a god, regardless of her self deprecating comment at the beginning of the first book/anime, because A) I believe it would be in character, and an attempt to try and persuade Lawrence to treat her more like a person, rather than with the fear, awe and distance she hates; after all she doesnt want to be worshipped, she just wants to be wanted. B) The official literature calls her a deity aka a god! haha
Actually with the blood sacrifice thing, there's also the possibility she could be a beneficent demon, which would explain the powers, why she says she isnt a god and doesn't tell Lawrence exactly what she is. Would also explain the more agressive animal form, and could be related to her apprehension over returning to Yoitsu. A demon fox is a fairly well known Japanese monster afterall, and a wolf would seem a fairly reasonable facsimile for a European setting.
Either way unless proved otherwise, I'm going to role with the relatively young, inexperienced pagan god explanation.

Extra note: By the way Bash, you seem to be a lot more learned in paganism and folklore than me, but rather than Norse, I tend to favour Holo comes from the mainland continent, which would be north Germany or Denmark. Known for the weather and forests after all, as well as a place wolves used to live in Europe, and would also explain why Holo was able to reach what seems to be mainland Germany by foot.
I dont know if Holo was created with a specific paganistic basis either, for example specific regional gods/spirits and may just be an entirely new creation, rather than being based around an existing figure, for example Fenrir.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by tyranuus

a lot of the materials I've read tend to suggest pacts and agreements where gods and spirits are involved tend to be much more binding affairs than the civil agreements of mortals.

It's always fun to read those older materials, because a "demon" is usually just a heretical deity from another belief system. Even Spice and Wolf itself talks a bit about this, and how the existing deities in a region usually are incorporated into the Church teachings either not as competitive "gods" but saints, or are vilified and become "demons".

Originally Posted by tyranuus

In terms of self centered....I wouldnt really go that far

Heh, sure. Again, I'm just labeling based on how her thought-processes seem to work. It's not that she is incapable of empathy, "stuck up" or selfish.. just that she tends to think in terms of self first and foremost.

I think the most interesting thing about the relationship in the novels is that they are starting to rub off on one another - Lawrence is learning how to be more self-centered (clumsily), and Horo is starting to show signs of being less self-centered.

Originally Posted by tyranuus

Holos anger at Lawrences occasional selflessness may also be aimed at herself as much as him

It certainly seems that way to me. She sometimes uses him as a punching bag to vent her own frustration, and it doesn't help that he's always willing to take all of the blame for everything.

Originally Posted by tyranuus

Oh and Im going to stick to my viewpoint that Holo is a god, regardless of her self deprecating comment at the beginning of the first book/anime

I'd say she's really just averse to being labeled as a god.. regardless of whether she "is" as powerful as what we'd call a god.

you seem to be a lot more learned in paganism and folklore than me, but rather than Norse, I tend to favour Holo comes from the mainland continent

I wouldn't claim to be very learned, I mean nowadays you could probably one-up me on my knowledge with just an hour or two on Wikipedia

But yeah, I was basically trying to say that I feel the same way, that she seems to reflect the mythos of continental Europe in the high middle ages, not the more ancient Norse mythology.

[Arashi500]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

I think Horo would only do so to ease the worries of the townspeople. After all, they're probably going to have a tough time accepting the presence of a harvest deity, let alone her reliability. At least pretending they have some control over her would make it easier for her to integrate. If she just arrogantly did as she pleased it's unlikely the townspeople would truly accept her, except out of fear - something that goes against her desires.


She certainly does seem egocentric, in that she doesn't seem to consider how others see or feel about things and all of her actions seem to be defined by her needs/desires. It's telling that most of the time she gets truly upset or frustrated it's due to Lawrence's "selflessness", as though such foreign behaviour is painful to bear.

I certainly wasn't intending for it to seem harsh It's just a personality trait to me, not something positive or negative in and of itself. It gives her that regal and god-like air, and explains her slightly narcissistic nature. Besides, the humans of the novels tend to be just as petty and self-centered...

Well as a creature of nature, the selfish solution s typicaly the logical, and natural solution. To her, constant selflessness would seem completely useless, illogical, and plain stupid. Not purely because she is self centered, which is also possible, but because selfeshenss has made sense to her.

On the god aspect, she could be a form of Angel, Demon, or as I stated somewhere else, something akin the the Morrigan in Pagan Gaelic Celtic (Irish) or Gaulic Celtic (scottish) religion. Or she could be a demi-god. I hardly think of the powers shes revealed so far that God is a an appropriate word.

[JThree]

Other questions?
Not to give away spoilers away intentionally

Just reading the posts about season 2, but I'm confused about an episode, which one has it that Holo (after finding out that her Northern home and fellow beings have been destroyed, reveals she wants to have a child with Lawrence or did I misunderstand what was said?

What episode was it?

Jearl

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by JThree

Other questions?
Not to give away spoilers away intentionally

Just reading the posts about season 2, but I'm confused about an episode, which one has it that Holo (after finding out that her Northern home and fellow beings have been destroyed, reveals she wants to have a child with Lawrence or did I misunderstand what was said?

What episode was it?

Jearl

It was the third episode of season two, after she Jedi mind-tricks Lawrence into leaving Deanna's letter behind so she can read it, has it backfire, and then takes it all out on Lawrence as usual. She *does* flat-out ask him whether he'll mate with her in that scene.

If you want to assume she's not grasping at insane straws, then feel free, but even Lawrence assumes she's not sure and wants to "try" out of desperation. That's why he asked Deanna his "stupid question", according to the novels.. so he can tell her that it's possible to avoid loneliness by having a child, even if it's not with another wolf-deity-thing. Whether Deanna was just messing with Lawrence or answering that question honestly is also up to you.

[JThree]

[QUOTE=BashZeStampeedo;3229034]It was the third episode of season two, after she Jedi mind-tricks Lawrence into leaving Deanna's letter behind so she can

Can you explain to me a bit more how she "mind-tricks" Lawrence here?

JThree

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by JThree

Can you explain to me a bit more how she "mind-tricks" Lawrence here?

There's not much to it. She had just playfully "conned" him into spending the day with her drinking and partying (by effectively setting up that game with Amati). She's also lied to him about not being able to read. In that scene, it's also quite clear that he's not sober. She plays the fake-jealousy angle, and specifically eggs him on to leave the letter behind (which he wasn't going to do). It's a bit clearer in the novels, because they really rush through it in the anime and as they say, the devil is in the details.

[JThree]

One other question: What was this about Holo having a "marriage certificate" and what she was planning to do with it?

JThree

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by JThree

One other question: What was this about Holo having a "marriage certificate" and what she was planning to do with it?

People seem to agree that she left it there just because she wanted him to get ANGRY before he went upstairs to face her. Why? Presumably she is hoping that in the week since she asked him to "just get angry with her" he's already changed enough to be able to do so. There could be any number of reasons why she'd want him angry, but to be kind I'll assume that it's because she doesn't want him to bottle up his feelings or something like that.

But it's a stupid idea anyway. If he's already in the inn, he's going to be there to face her. She also knows how poorly he interprets such things when he's clear-minded. Why would he "get it" now, especially after he just mis-interpreted her apology as outright rejection? It's so stupid, in fact, that I think she's just as far gone as Lawrence is. She wants his attention badly, but doesn't want him to realize that. But that's just my pet theory.

In fact, I think that Deanna realized it and got a little pissed off or something - hence why she rejected Horo's plea and instead set up that elaborate and pointless scenario for them (talk about your intricate and twisted relationship counseling).

[JThree]

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I still don't understand.
I haven't seen the episode yet, but what was the marriage certificate for? Was it for her and Lawrence? Did she get it made up to force Lawrence to make a decision? Could you elaborate on the background of how the certificate came to be?

JThree

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by JThree

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I still don't understand.
I haven't seen the episode yet, but what was the marriage certificate for? Was it for her and Lawrence? Did she get it made up to force Lawrence to make a decision? Could you elaborate on the background of how the certificate came to be?

This is what we know happens:
- Horo has her melodramatic outburst scene. Even though she says "I'm sorry" at the end, Lawrence mis-interprets it as her rejecting him rather than apologizing for the outburst. He leaves, because he thinks she wants him to.
- He walks around town for a while, thinking Horo's still completely irrational and might actually go off with Amati if he wins (in the worst case). He thinks about how he can face her, but also how he can defeat Amati just in case she really is that far gone.
- He eventually finds he's wandered back near the inn again, and sees Amati on the street looking up at Horo in the inn's window. They smile and wave to each other, then Horo looks straight at Lawrence emotionlessly, like she's inviting him back to the room to talk things out. He's happy to see it, and goes back to the inn to do so.
- Just as he's about to go upstairs, the innkeeper interrupts him and gives him letter Horo had left behind for him. One is a break-down of Amati's financial situation, like a clue she's left behind so Lawrence can beat Amati. But once he sees a signed marriage certificate, he reads the intent as a challenge to win her back from Amati (who is very close to winning, according to the other letter). After all, they are signs that she DOESN'T want to talk, because she just said everything in those letters. So he uses her clues to come up with a plan to beat Amati, and angrily hunts him down instead of angrily confronting her.

So based on his perspective, and what she says later on, we can deduce what she did. She was stunned that Lawrence mis-interpreted her initial apology and left the room. But she didn't want to chase after him to set things straight. So she met with Amati somehow instead, though we don't know how or why (my assumption is he went to visit her at the inn when he saw Lawrence leave).

She talked with him to get him to spill the beans about how close he was to "winning" the game, and gained his implicit trust by signing the marriage certificate. Why she did all of that is beyond me, but I guess she was worried that her plan to con Amati out of his money was in jeopardy if she didn't sign the certificate.

Anyhow, there are two possibilities now. One is that Amati left the marriage cert with her, and that she later had someone write the second letter and left them BOTH with the innkeeper. The other is that they signed the cert downstairs and it was left with the innkeeper immediately, then after Amati left she had someone hastily write the other letter. Either way, it's not very wise behavior for her to just leave the letters and run back to the room.

[JThree]

Dear Guys:

Just read on the wikipedia page, that currently there are 14 Spice and Wolf novels out in Japan, and there are just two books out in the United States. I am assuming that books 3 & 4 are season 2.

So if there are 14 novels out right now, does that mean at least 7 DVD seasons are possible?

Also, where can you go to get advance word from what's going on in by book 14. Yeah. Yeah. I know. You have to be able to read Japanese.

JThree

[poleno]

Originally Posted by JThree

Just read on the wikipedia page, that currently there are 14 Spice and Wolf novels out in Japan, and there are just two books out in the United States. I am assuming that books 3 & 4 are season 2.

There are 15 vols yet.
Season 2 includes vol 3 and vol 5. Volume 4 was pased.

Originally Posted by JThree

Also, where can you go to get advance word from what's going on in by book 14. Yeah. Yeah. I know. You have to be able to read Japanese.

That's what you're looking for?
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...89#post3244189

[tyranuus]

Several of the books out are also side novels, but yes, more or less there's enough content to do at least another 3/4 seasons IF they didnt skip much material, and IF () it gets financial backing.

I know there's people other than us elsewhere who'd like the series to complete in animated form as well, but unfortunately business/sponsors are fickle, so...we're hoping for at least one more series...but...who knows
I was kinda hoping we'd have seen some news by now.

[y0shi]

I plan to get the novels / mangas but Im having a bit off trouble sorting out the stuff at amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss...spice+and+wolf

Some of those say "manga", some dont say anything at all. I guess those are the novels? Also some say japanese but there are some which dont say japanese but look like the japanese novels. I dont want to get japanese stuff, please someone help me xD