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Old 2011-05-04, 03:52   Link #301
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi View Post
You know, I genuinely hope that will be the case because I really do want someone to let me restore some faith in the system and that there is some level of transparency there. But I doubt there's a huge chance of that happening all the while.
You can't expect transparency in this case. If as was suspected, they used a special custom helicopter for this mission, they wouldn't tell us anything about its capability for years unless the details get leaked by a foreign spy. I am a supporter of Wikileaks, but I see the need to hide military capabilities as a legitimate demand of the government. But eventually the info would come out.

I see the conflicting data released to this point and the lack of video footage, explained by the fact that they can't release anything that display military hardware.
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Old 2011-05-04, 04:04   Link #302
Tsuyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You can't expect transparency in this case. If as was suspected, they used a special custom helicopter for this mission, they wouldn't tell us anything about its capability for years unless the details get leaked by a foreign spy. I am a supporter of Wikileaks, but I see the need to hide military capabilities as a legitimate demand of the government. But eventually the info would come out.

I see the conflicting data released to this point and the lack of video footage, explained by the fact that they can't release anything that display military hardware.
Not exactly transparency in what type of equipment they used, but more with what actually happened, how they concluded Bin Laden or his associate was there and what went down in Pakistan. I don't mean getting info from traditional media outlets, but getting info from the people who did the deed themselves.
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Old 2011-05-04, 05:00   Link #303
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi View Post
Not exactly transparency in what type of equipment they used, but more with what actually happened, how they concluded Bin Laden or his associate was there and what went down in Pakistan. I don't mean getting info from traditional media outlets, but getting info from the people who did the deed themselves.
That's even harder, as the operatives themselves are so important they are practically secret agents. Their identities are protected.

I expect a documentary or two made about this in the future once declassification happened. Much like the Iran hostage crisis, except in this case it didn't end in disaster.
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Old 2011-05-04, 06:59   Link #304
Mr. DJ
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Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post

“They cleaned it out,” one official said. “Can you imagine what’s on Osama bin
Laden’s hard drive?”"
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Old 2011-05-04, 08:28   Link #305
TigerII
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I look forward to the day when this mission is declassified. No doubt they used the very best the military had to offer in this mission, both the personnel and hardware. They must have used all the cool toys they have for this one moment.
I'd say if the US doesn't have an economic collapse, 50 years AT LEAST. If it does, well, like a lot of Soviet information was released, sold, and leaked, you could expect this mission.

May be even more. The United Kingdom still has classified material from World War I. All that has been said is that it would damage UK-German relations. MY guess is they funded Hitler in his war on the communist. The Western allies were very wary of the communist uprisings happening in Hungary and Russia(Even sent troops to Russia in 1918).
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Old 2011-05-04, 09:56   Link #306
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Pakistan blames world for failing to track Osama
Quote:
Pakistan's prime minister says spy agencies worldwide share the blame for his country's failure to capture Osama Bin Laden, who was killed by US forces.

"We have intelligence failure of the rest of the world including the United States," PM Yousuf Raza Gilani said.
-_-
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Old 2011-05-04, 10:04   Link #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killer3000ad View Post
Spoiler for My reaction:

Really now, are people gonna throw rocks at each other to avoid taking their own responsibility? Really? The deed is done, Osama's dead, pay your respects to the lives lost to him (and in search of him), and move on, I say.
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Old 2011-05-04, 11:09   Link #308
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As a person whose Great Grandmother (on my father's side) was Native American, I'm a bit put out by the use of Geronimo's name for the operation to kill Osama Bin Laden.

It's like labelling it "Operation Malcom X."
And the Onondaga Native American tribes have a right to be angry over this:
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s...ers_blast.html

Also, Al Arabiya News is reporting that Osama's daughter (an eye witness to Osama's death) claims that her father did not fight the US forces.
They simply dragged him out of bed (he was bed ridden with renal failure) and shot him in the head.
http://english.alarabiya.net/article...04/147782.html

If that's the case, then Barrack has some serious explaining to do as to why Osama wasn't captured and put on trial.

It's no wonder Obama isn't getting much of a bounce from this (6% points jump total) according to Gallup (the CNN/NYTimes poll was weighted too heavily to be taken seriously).
Real Clear Politics has him up 7% for the average.
If it is true that Osama didn't fight back and that our forces executed him right there in his compound, then Barrack will be in real trouble politically.

In addition, Pakistan claims that it told the CIA about this compound sometime in 2009.
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/paki...9-20110504-ncx

If that is the case, then this whole situation starts to stink of political manipulation.
Whatever the case, the WH is not handling the aftermath of Osama's death very well and they're only adding to the sentiment that they're lying to everyone about the details of this operation.

Oh, I see the White House now admits Osama was unarmed, but is claiming that you don't have to be armed to resist.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42882664..._of_bin_laden/

Really?
So now we're basically no better than the Al Qaeda thugs we're supposed to be saving the world from.
That story (and others), are reinforcing my belief that Barrack Obama gave an assasination order and nothing more.
That is the political sentiment of a dictator, not a person out for justice IMHO.
If Obama wanted this man brought to justice, then they should have taken him into custody.
This claim that Al Qaeda might somehow rescue Osama is complete and utter bullshit.
Once on a US aircraft carrier, Osama would have been sent to Gitmo, and there he would have stayed until trial.
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Old 2011-05-04, 11:39   Link #309
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Personally, I think a show trial is more distasteful than a summary execution. They're essentially the same thing, but at least we were spared the inevitable media exploitation and theatrics of something like Saddam Hussein's trial.

The Geronimo thing is pretty inappropriate, but military culture is generally anything but tasteful.
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Old 2011-05-04, 11:58   Link #310
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That's more of them having run out of cool neutral operation names a long time ago and having to use people (or expressions, since to those that don't know that he was a person would think that is just what people yell when they jump out of an airplane).

Remember the reception that Operation Desert Fox got?
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Old 2011-05-04, 12:38   Link #311
Vexx
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Geronimo is known in history basically for doing something "heroic but that was probably going to fail" ... hence the popularity of using his name when doing something one might consider heroic but foolish (like jumping out of an airplane in 1944 with a crappy early prototype parachute).

But yeah... the military has a long history of "PR fail" in their selection of operation names. They really should put that tradition to bed
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Old 2011-05-04, 12:46   Link #312
TigerII
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Operation FU Pakistan would have been better. That or Operation Neutral, lol.
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Old 2011-05-04, 12:52   Link #313
Spectacular_Insanity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Geronimo is known in history basically for doing something "heroic but that was probably going to fail" ... hence the popularity of using his name when doing something one might consider heroic but foolish (like jumping out of an airplane in 1944 with a crappy early prototype parachute).

But yeah... the military has a long history of "PR fail" in their selection of operation names. They really should put that tradition to bed
Who cares. It's just a name for an operation.

In any case, I'm just glad it's over with. We've been chasing that s.o.b. for (almost) a decade, and we finally got him. As far as I'm concerned, a burial at sea was too good for him. That being said, it was appropriate, since we certainly don't wanna be as bad as our enemies.

Just goes to show you... don't fuck with the United States of America. We'll find you. It may take us a while, but we will find you.
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Old 2011-05-04, 13:00   Link #314
solomon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post

Also, Al Arabiya News is reporting that Osama's daughter (an eye witness to Osama's death) claims that her father did not fight the US forces.
They simply dragged him out of bed (he was bed ridden with renal failure) and shot him in the head.
http://english.alarabiya.net/article...04/147782.html

If that's the case, then Barrack has some serious explaining to do as to why Osama wasn't captured and put on trial.

It's no wonder Obama isn't getting much of a bounce from this (6% points jump total) according to Gallup (the CNN/NYTimes poll was weighted too heavily to be taken seriously).
Real Clear Politics has him up 7% for the average.
If it is true that Osama didn't fight back and that our forces executed him right there in his compound, then Barrack will be in real trouble politically.

.
Uh, maybe amongst some hardcore pacifists and left wingers. Most Americans will tell you (rightly or wrongly) that the rat deserved what was coming to him or at the very least he deserved to die anyways.

No what hurts Obama is the fact that Bin Laden being dead doesn't put people back to work.
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Old 2011-05-04, 13:07   Link #315
TigerII
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Originally Posted by solomon View Post
Uh, maybe amongst some hardcore pacifists and left wingers. Most Americans will tell you (rightly or wrongly) that the rat deserved what was coming to him or at the very least he deserved to die anyways.

No what hurts Obama is the fact that Bin Laden being dead doesn't put people back to work.
Or stop the radical Islamic groups. Al Queda has lost a lot of power in the last decade. There are much worse ones out there now. The Chechens are still rampaging in Russia, radical Pakistanis running amok in India, the Philippines have been in constant struggle with radicals for the last 100 years, etc.
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Old 2011-05-04, 13:09   Link #316
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Operation Hydra (to describe terrorism) or Operation Bomb Laden

Bin Laden's Story (all master terrorists start out small after all)
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Old 2011-05-04, 13:11   Link #317
Highman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post

The Geronimo thing is pretty inappropriate, but military culture is generally anything but tasteful.
Come on military personnel says Geronimo alot even fun activities kids say it to just have fun when they jump out into the pool for cannonballs.

summer is around the corner you'll see kids say it out loud.
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Old 2011-05-04, 13:12   Link #318
justsomeguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Also, Al Arabiya News is reporting that Osama's daughter (an eye witness to Osama's death) claims that her father did not fight the US forces.
They simply dragged him out of bed (he was bed ridden with renal failure) and shot him in the head.
http://english.alarabiya.net/article...04/147782.html
A biased eyewitness to his demise.

Quote:
If that's the case, then Barrack has some serious explaining to do as to why Osama wasn't captured and put on trial.

It's no wonder Obama isn't getting much of a bounce from this (6% points jump total) according to Gallup (the CNN/NYTimes poll was weighted too heavily to be taken seriously).
Real Clear Politics has him up 7% for the average.
If it is true that Osama didn't fight back and that our forces executed him right there in his compound, then Barrack will be in real trouble politically.
No, Obama will be in no trouble at all. I think you are severely overestimating how much people care about Osama's human rights (we Americans hate the bastard, and cheered his demise). Osama has done everything he can to turn everybody against him, and it is absolutely impossible to give him anything close to a fair trial. If Osama had been taken alive, he would have been tortured in Gitmo, then given a military trial followed by execution anyway.

Quote:
In addition, Pakistan claims that it told the CIA about this compound sometime in 2009.
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/paki...9-20110504-ncx
They're trying to cover their asses after being humiliated on Sunday.

Quote:
Oh, I see the White House now admits Osama was unarmed, but is claiming that you don't have to be armed to resist.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42882664..._of_bin_laden/
No, you don't have to be armed to resist. You could always fight unarmed, grab hostages, try to run away, or reach toward something that could be used as a weapon.


Quote:
Really?
So now we're basically no better than the Al Qaeda thugs we're supposed to be saving the world from.
That story (and others), are reinforcing my belief that Barrack Obama gave an assasination order and nothing more.
So a man who proudly admitted to killing 3000 innocent people is now a victim of an assassination?

Quote:
That is the political sentiment of a dictator, not a person out for justice IMHO.
If Obama wanted this man brought to justice, then they should have taken him into custody.
How is a bullet to the head not "justice" for an admitted and unrepentant murderer?

Quote:
This claim that Al Qaeda might somehow rescue Osama is complete and utter bullshit.
Once on a US aircraft carrier, Osama would have been sent to Gitmo, and there he would have stayed until trial.
That's all nice and good, until they start kidnapping American tourists and demanding an exchange.
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Old 2011-05-04, 13:17   Link #319
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Quote:
As a person whose Great Grandmother (on my father's side) was Native American, I'm a bit put out by the use of Geronimo's name for the operation to kill Osama Bin Laden.
Oh for Christ sake, you do realize that the guy was a famed raider and warrior. Somehow I don't think he's turning in his grave at having his name attached to a military operation to kill a mass murdering scum bag.

Quote:
Really?
So now we're basically no better than the Al Qaeda thugs we're supposed to be saving the world from.

That story (and others), are reinforcing my belief that Barrack Obama gave an assasination order and nothing more.
That is the political sentiment of a dictator, not a person out for justice IMHO.
If Obama wanted this man brought to justice, then they should have taken him into custody.
This claim that Al Qaeda might somehow rescue Osama is complete and utter bullshit.
Once on a US aircraft carrier, Osama would have been sent to Gitmo, and there he would have stayed until trial.
Somebody call the waaaabulance.

If you gave me a gun and had him kneeling in front of me I'd have a big old smile as I splattered his brains on a wall. You don't get to order the murder of thousands of people then go "I surrender, take me to jail!" That's not how it works, ask the prison guards of concentration camps about that. Seriously has our civilization been reduce to such a state spinless cowardice that killing people who brag about how they committed mass murder against our citizens is now seen as unacceptable? Well that's fine I suppose, so long as some people with courage and conviction like those SEALs continue to exist the sniveling weaklings that wring their hands over the specifics of how scum sucking murderers die can continue to do so in peace.

Also the end result of any trial was one thing: execution.

That SEAL just saved the government millions of dollars by using a 5 cent bullet to effect the same outcome as a 5 million dollar trial.
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Old 2011-05-04, 13:34   Link #320
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
If Obama wanted this man brought to justice, then they should have taken him into custody.
This claim that Al Qaeda might somehow rescue Osama is complete and utter bullshit.
Once on a US aircraft carrier, Osama would have been sent to Gitmo, and there he would have stayed until trial.
In all honesty, there isn't a court on Earth that would have given Bin Laden a fair trial. If you attempted to hold the trial in one of the many Middle Eastern countries Bin Laden has stayed in over the years (and consequently broken laws in), you would be faced with extreme corruption (both for and against Bin Laden) and blatant extremism (the claim of Al Qaeda retaliation would not be BS). If Bin Laden were tried in the West, it would be nothing more than a kangaroo court (which Western country would actually try and adequately defend Osama Bin Laden?). Kenya? Again, Bin Laden has committed crimes a plenty in Africa to the point where it is inconceivable that he would receive a fair trial (plus, there is equal if not greater amounts of corruption spread throughout Africa). Etc.

(That being said, I do wish a trial was a possibility, but I simply find it extraordinarily unlikely that anything positive would result from such a trial. There would be no Justice, only Revenge, which would mar the judicial system for quite some time.)

Additionally, Obama had to factor how a tried and sentence Osama Bin Laden affects the world vs. how a killed in action Bin Laden affects the world. Seemingly, Obama and his staff decided that a dead Osama was more beneficial (in at least the short term, but probably also the long term) than one subjected to a sham court proceeding before execution.

(Additionally, it is unknown what other factors were involved in the mission. Were there Al Qaeda forces on the way? Did the US forces believe Bin Laden was carrying a weapon; or reaching for a weapon? Was the chance of him escaping inordinately higher than the chance of capture? etc.)

Whatever the case, going for an extreme conclusion such as Obama acting like a "dictator" or a "Al Qaeda thug" seems like hyperbole (this isn't a casual dismissal of human life for what are generally silly or simplistic reasons, but rather a calculated endeavor to combat and if necessary destroy a formally declared enemy). More likely, it was simply determined that a dead Osama was more advantageous for all countries involved, and if the armed forces had to choice, then death was the more prevalent (or at least entirely acceptable) option.

Last edited by james0246; 2011-05-04 at 13:46.
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