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View Poll Results: Myself; Yourself - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 63 42.86%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 43 29.25%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 11.56%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 6.12%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.04%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.36%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 1.36%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 8 5.44%
Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-12-13, 13:19   Link #161
Chewy
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Toronto, ON
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Ok... this is basically how the show failed so far, I'll use a simple story example.

"This show is about Bucky the rabbit and his desire to eat the carrot. ok, throughout the story bucky is solely concentrated on the carrot, even with all evil obstacles in his way, he only wants the carrot. But, at the very end, he decides to become a travelling musician in a punk band group. The clue pointing to this ending was there was a record album sitting in the background in one of the scenes. It was never mentioned verbally only glanced at for a quick second."
I assume in this analogy, Bucky is Asami and Sana is the carrot ? But Asami hasn't shown any actual interest in Sana at all. She appears on screen with Sana, but she hangs out with Shuuri just as much, probably more. She's nice to Sana, but she only helped him out the first time they met because she thought he was a freshman. The only real reaction we ever got out of Asami was when she saw Shuri crying.

Asami wanting to hang out with Sana could also be explained in other ways. I can't explain it here because this is anime only, but go read about Asami and Nanaka in general discussions thread, then think about what Asami said this episode about being good at coming up with malicious plans.
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Old 2007-12-13, 13:41   Link #162
serenade_beta
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That said, considering how the discussion is going in circle, it isn't worth any more debate, as "hints" and "plot twist" in that series can work or not, whatever. it isn't requiring a science liking or anything to accept that or brand it as absurd.
Let the rest of the opinions flow, I think we covered already the reasoning and points of each "side" (and I don't think people would fancy getting a cycling debate on the same discussion over and over).
I completely agree the thread is going in a circle. Though new things pop up occasionally...
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Old 2007-12-13, 14:07   Link #163
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
I assume in this analogy, Bucky is Asami and Sana is the carrot ? But Asami hasn't shown any actual interest in Sana at all. She appears on screen with Sana, but she hangs out with Shuuri just as much, probably more. She's nice to Sana, but she only helped him out the first time they met because she thought he was a freshman. The only real reaction we ever got out of Asami was when she saw Shuri crying.

Asami wanting to hang out with Sana could also be explained in other ways. I can't explain it here because this is anime only, but go read about Asami and Nanaka in general discussions thread, then think about what Asami said this episode about being good at coming up with malicious plans.
The point of that "story" was to show how Bucky took an action that that seems inconsistent with his character and the story lacks justification for such turn of events. Sure, when you write a story you can have the characters do whatever and whenever, but whether the actions carried out by the characters resonate with the general information and implications known about them and their personalities determines how good of a writing the story has.

When a character suddenly gets a development of "oh yea, buy the way she is evil, scheming and homosexual! Ha ! Bet you didn't see that coming, eh ?" i question the credibility of the writing.

The ferris wheel doesn't foreshadow anything, lets alone of this scale. All we saw was Asami (who has been portrayed as very kind and helpful person) acting surprised/shocked to see Shuri (who has been behaving cheerfully all the time) crying in obvious pain. It is beyond my capabilities to see how to interpret this as Asami having the hots (and dark intentions to boot) for Shuri.

Plot twists are welcomed as long as they make sense within the context of the show. When we have a twist for the sake of having one, i question the writing of it. Sure, it adds the ZOMG factor, but this time my suppression of disbelief couldn't handle it.

*sigh* ...we are going in circles, aren't we ?
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Old 2007-12-13, 14:29   Link #164
HayashiTakara
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Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
The point of that "story" was to show how Bucky took an action that that seems inconsistent with his character and the story lacks justification for such turn of events. Sure, when you write a story you can have the characters do whatever and whenever, but whether the actions carried out by the characters resonate with the general information and implications known about them and their personalities determines how good of a writing the story has.

When a character suddenly gets a development of "oh yea, buy the way she is evil, scheming and homosexual! Ha ! Bet you didn't see that coming, eh ?" i question the credibility of the writing.

The ferris wheel doesn't foreshadow anything, lets alone of this scale. All we saw was Asami (who has been portrayed as very kind and helpful person) acting surprised/shocked to see Shuri (who has been behaving cheerfully all the time) crying in obvious pain. It is beyond my capabilities to see how to interpret this as Asami having the hots (and dark intentions to boot) for Shuri.

Plot twists are welcomed as long as they make sense within the context of the show. When we have a twist for the sake of having one, i question the writing of it. Sure, it adds the ZOMG factor, but this time my suppression of disbelief couldn't handle it.

*sigh* ...we are going in circles, aren't we ?
Its just as Skyfall has implicated with my example. Yes, the story doesn't revolved around Asami, but Asami does play a huge role in the story, despite being a flat character. The whole build up with her character was to play a part in Sana's and Nana's development. The writers basically forced her at the last minute to be the catharsis for the twins. The way the story has been going, it should've been the step mother that moves the twins story not Asami. Now, that Asami has taken that role of being the main force behind the twins story, where does that leave the step-mother, now that the twins story are for all intents and purposes ended? It's a major breaking in the story, and it simply leads to bad story telling.
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Old 2007-12-13, 15:35   Link #165
fuzzles
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This just took a good turn, totally unexpected really extinguishes my confusion over why Asami's eyes were shaking like that(I thought the animators were being idiots) and basically destroyed anything negative I've said about the show before. Definitely loving it next week is looking bright too(well in terms of episode enjoyment at least)

probably shouldn't have watched this after Ef though made the emotional impact feel like nothing still 10/10 great episode looking forward for the rest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
When a character suddenly gets a development of "oh yea, buy the way she is evil, scheming and homosexual! Ha ! Bet you didn't see that coming, eh ?" i question the credibility of the writing.
Do we ever see really good plot twists coming? If it's predictable that's just gonna suck. oh and come on it didn't come out of no where, I know plenty of people who you wouldn't expect to be so malicious (usually they appear to be really nice people) and the homosexual thing be fair I bet any person who's come out of the closet since high school you would never have guessed(well at least half:P).

I myself enjoyed how they kept Asami a mysterious helpful girl that everyone could love. not to say some things weren't ridiculous , but still I don't feel it came out of nowhere(probably what they were going for, how the hell would they foreshadow her being a lesbian without ruining it, instead I think they played it smart and gave us things to look back on and say oh yeah that makes sense now)

Last edited by fuzzles; 2007-12-13 at 15:46.
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Old 2007-12-13, 15:41   Link #166
NoSanninWa
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There you have it.

For some people a surprise is worth it, just for being a surprise.
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Old 2007-12-13, 16:15   Link #167
Zippicus
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I'm not sure what the big deal is here. I'm sure everyone knows at least one person that would smile to your face while stabbing you in the back. Usually you don't find out about those people until the knife is firmly in your back. Having a character like that in an anime is hardly earthshaking or unbelievable. The writers dropped enough little clues in previous episodes to show that this is how they wanted it to play out.

Anyways I thought it was a pretty good episode, on par with the rest of the series.
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Old 2007-12-13, 17:35   Link #168
serenade_beta
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Originally Posted by Zippicus View Post
I'm not sure what the big deal is here. I'm sure everyone knows at least one person that would smile to your face while stabbing you in the back. Usually you don't find out about those people until the knife is firmly in your back. Having a character like that in an anime is hardly earthshaking or unbelievable. The writers dropped enough little clues in previous episodes to show that this is how they wanted it to play out.

Anyways I thought it was a pretty good episode, on par with the rest of the series.
*shakes head*
Nope, I don't know anyone who would stab me in the back while smiling. Personally, I wouldn't want to know them either. Besides, what you said contradicts. If we don't find out until the knife is in our back, just how exactly would we know such a person right now?
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Old 2007-12-13, 17:40   Link #169
Sorrow-K
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Originally Posted by Zippicus View Post
I'm not sure what the big deal is here. I'm sure everyone knows at least one person that would smile to your face while stabbing you in the back. Usually you don't find out about those people until the knife is firmly in your back. Having a character like that in an anime is hardly earthshaking or unbelievable. The writers dropped enough little clues in previous episodes to show that this is how they wanted it to play out.

Anyways I thought it was a pretty good episode, on par with the rest of the series.
The problem is, what's possible in real life isn't exactly realistic in literature. It all depends on the storytelling. This was akin to Osaka's scary story in Azumanga Daioh where she described a series of grizzly murders, getting her audience on the edge of their seats, only to reveal in a really anticlimactic fashion that she was the killer. The problem with that is the same as the problem here. It's absurd to think Osaka could instigate all those murders because it's not in the nature of her character. You can't just slap an incident on a random character and hope the audience will buy it. The perfect plot twist is one that no one expects, but is also believable given what has gone before it. This misses on the latter.
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Old 2007-12-13, 18:25   Link #170
Zippicus
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Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
*shakes head*
Nope, I don't know anyone who would stab me in the back while smiling. Personally, I wouldn't want to know them either. Besides, what you said contradicts. If we don't find out until the knife is in our back, just how exactly would we know such a person right now?
That must be some nice utopia you're living in

And as to how you could know such a person right now, unless you developed amnesia or something I would think you would remember them. But since you live in this utopia where there are no two faced people I can understand how you might miss that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
The problem is, what's possible in real life isn't exactly realistic in literature. It all depends on the storytelling. This was akin to Osaka's scary story in Azumanga Daioh where she described a series of grizzly murders, getting her audience on the edge of their seats, only to reveal in a really anticlimactic fashion that she was the killer. The problem with that is the same as the problem here. It's absurd to think Osaka could instigate all those murders because it's not in the nature of her character. You can't just slap an incident on a random character and hope the audience will buy it. The perfect plot twist is one that no one expects, but is also believable given what has gone before it. This misses on the latter.
I think you have that backwards with the real life to literature comparison. And they didn't just slap an incident on a random character, they dropped enough clues for plenty of people to see this coming. They just didn't fill in the "why" until this episode. As far as Asami acting out of character, well that's kind of the point of inserting a two faced character into a story, eventually we're supposed to see the other face.
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Old 2007-12-13, 18:34   Link #171
othic
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wow glad i didn't spoiler myself.
I liked the surprise. Made the episode so worth it.
Really loved all the semi forshadowing that really didn't tell you much.
Then when they say it you get that "ah" reaction.
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Old 2007-12-13, 19:23   Link #172
SeedFreedom
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Why are people over analyzing this so much? so Asami is a plot device? otherwise her role, would have been nothing. There were hint, and the fact that they weren't bluntly obvious makes them better, not worse. And still no one has given me a better ending. They've committed to someone writing and setting up the twins and ill take a sudden lesbian over the overly used step mother any day. I didnt see anyone complain about the last ep, and they would have to reveal a culprit later. Out of all their options, she was the best to use.
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Old 2007-12-13, 19:58   Link #173
HayashiTakara
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The step mother was the best use, the lack of background and involvement of Asami and the twins makes it less believable. Before this episode all we knew is that Shuri and Asami volunteered at the nursing home together and knew eachother through that. Beyond that there was nothing. It was a cheap escape for cheap thrills.
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Old 2007-12-13, 20:03   Link #174
SeedFreedom
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Step mother is so obvious, there would be no added value to the show to set her up. That would be even less thrills and a worse way to set up the anime. honestly why would you watch an anime where every future plot is spelled out for you. Obviously no one would be surprised if they revealed Sana is a cutter, so that portion is no longer an important point in the plot. Guess maybe i just evolved passed obvious transparent plots with no appreciable effort in the writing to actually provide a good story. glad this one didn't turn out like that though.
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Old 2007-12-13, 20:03   Link #175
serenade_beta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
The step mother was the best use, the lack of background and involvement of Asami and the twins makes it less believable. Before this episode all we knew is that Shuri and Asami volunteered at the nursing home together and knew eachother through that. Beyond that there was nothing. It was a cheap escape for cheap thrills.
Let me point out I'm "anti" for the twist before I say this...

I already know what people are going to say about using the stepmother.
"It's too obvious and boring".
Apparently, something absurd but surprising is better than something plain but logical... according to them.

EDIT: I was right after all...... Someone did say it...

You know, by using the stepmother, they would also finish another sub-plot of the anime, "the Wakatsuki family". At this rate, the anime will complete ignore that woman and the father.
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Old 2007-12-13, 20:06   Link #176
SeedFreedom
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You cant say using Asami was illogical just because you didn't notice it. Look back and i'm sure you can find hints. more hints than for any other character except for the blantly obvious stepmother. For example, one i just realized is how Asami join helping the old folks AFTER she found out Shuri was already doing it.

Im sorry, i guess the only way to please some people are to spell out the ending in big letters for them.
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Old 2007-12-13, 20:09   Link #177
serenade_beta
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Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
You cant say using Asami was illogical just because you didn't notice it. Look back and i'm sure you can find hints. more hints than for any other character except for the blantly obvious stepmother. For example, one i just realized is how Asami join helping the old folks AFTER she found out Shuri was already doing it.

Im sorry, i guess the only way to please some people are to spell out the ending in big letters for them.


I'm not saying it's illogical because I didn't notice, but saying anymore would require me to go back through the pages and re-paste anything said...

I'll need to say that there are people in this world that, yes, would go out of their way to help old people. To deny this fact is like saying that every volunteer helping older people must have joined because they like someone working there.
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Old 2007-12-13, 20:09   Link #178
Hage-bai
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The fact Asami being a lesbo certainly was suprising. The fact that she was portrayed as the culprit and a bigger bitch than Nanaka is not. Everyone saw this part coming a mile away.
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Old 2007-12-13, 20:13   Link #179
SeedFreedom
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ya, back you up, but have you shown any proof that it was illogical? for example, to say Aoi being the arsonist is illogical given her age, and that it would be illogical for her to be at the house.

Now Asami is the best setup for the chalk board incident, (no i will never respect the stepmother as a possibility) and she would need a reason to do so. While it would have been also exceptable to set up her being jealous of Shuu, to say she was jealous of Shuri given the fariswheel incident is also a possibility.

I also admit i was wrong about shuri joining first ( i didnt bother to check), but the fact that Asami invited her also sets the pair up, or at least on Asami's part.

Last edited by SeedFreedom; 2007-12-13 at 20:17. Reason: correction
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Old 2007-12-13, 20:19   Link #180
serenade_beta
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ya, back you up, but have you shown any proof that it was illogical? for example, to say Aoi being the arsonist is illogical given her age, and that it would be illogical for her to be at the house.
A 12-14 year old can definitely commit arson. We already have them committing murder. Nanaka, Shuri, Shuusuke, and Aoi have lived together since they were little. Why is it illogical for Aoi to be at Nanaka's house?

Random note: I checked. You were right about Shuri working there first. But Asami didn't join because she realized Shuri was working there, Shuri invited her.

EDIT (upon your correction): .........I see. You admitted you were wrong when you weren't... I guess you still didn't check after I mistakenly said you were wrong. What can you say now (I'm not being cocky if I sound like that)? Originally, you said Asami joined because Shuri was there. But Shuri actually invited her. And it isn't a bit suspicious for people to join upon being invited. Because in that case, Sana must like Asami.
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