Fate/Apocrypha - Episode 2 Discussion / Poll

[Kairin]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Fate/Apocrypha, Episode 2.

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[bakato]

As a novel reader, it's nice to see some clear attempts to smooth out the wrinkles in the story telling, but I don't know if the resulting changes will really pay off.

[FlareKnight]

While the short temper could be an issue, certainly can respect Mordred's stance on her grail wish. Could just go to the extreme and wish for the throne. But instead just wants her crack at pulling the sword from the stone with the total confidence that she'll do it.

Certainly both sides are looking equally shady which makes it ok for anyone to lose . Says a lot when the leader of the Red side's first goal is assassinating the person there to make sure the war is balanced, whatever that really means.

[Twi]

Review here. Leaving aside the fact that Shirou has been getting lessons on hair care from Marik Ishtar from Yugioh, he's got that face of an angel and surname of Kotomine thing going on.

Anyway, the contrast between Mordred and her father are so vivid, yet they both had the same wish to use the grail: To go back in time to where the sword selection was happening and change the outcome. One wanted to change it so that she never became king, fearing that someone better could have led in her place, while the other believes that she would be the perfect king and should have the chance to try.

The Servants of Black are largely cool too, with Berserker being kind of moe-moe despite not largely using actual words and Jack the Ripper being a young-looking girl who cheerfully strolls through the streets after murder. I have to say though, Gordes would have been killed in the Fuyuki Grail War if he tried taking that kind of stance with his Servant, and Rider’s master was just plain creepy.

Still, next episode it looks like its going down and I can’t wait to see it.

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by Twi

I have to say though, Gordes would have been killed in the Fuyuki Grail War if he tried taking that kind of stance with his Servant.

Depends of who he would have ended up with.

Saber would be more concerned with winning the grail to really let him affect her.
Archer, Rider, and Lancer would have disliked him, but wouldn't really do anything unless he gave them a reason to.
Berserker wouldn't even be in a mindset where he could react to that stance.
Caster definitely would have killed him and I don' think I have to say what Gil would have done to him.

[IceHism]

Man, that ep was too quick for me. I probably enjoyed it a bit too much.

Mordred is cool but i wish there was more Jeanne this episode. Jeanne is my favorite so far and she seems way cooler here than in FGO.

[Applehell]

Um, there some pretty questionable heroes summoned this time around. And Jack the Ripper is a genderbent little girl, but of course.

This was pretty much just another introductory episode and not much else. I guess next week will go finish up the setup.

The full OP is not bad, but the best thing about it is the song.

Weird enough I thought Shiro or Ruler's master were going to be the MCs, but so far the Necromancer and Mordred feel like the protagonists more than anyone else. Not that mine this however, they solid chemistry together. Which in some ways makes it more of a shame the duo decided to go lonewolf, but at least not out of nature.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Um, there some pretty questionable heroes summoned this time around. And Jack the Ripper is a genderbent little girl, but of course.

Ironically, I may let female Jack slide because at the end of the day, we don't know much about Jack's real identity (if not at all) as the murder cases were never solved. Even the name "Jack" is widely considered as given/purported by the media at the time.

[Applehell]

When you put that way it I can see your point. Not that this would have stop Type-Moon doing it tho

Still an extreme stretch for someone like that to be a hero.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Applehell

When you put that way it I can see your point. Not that this would have stop Type-Moon doing it tho

Still an extreme stretch for someone like that to be a hero.

I'm sure they wouldn't have minded gender-bending either way, but I'm ok with it for the reasons above. You can basically insert anything in the role of Jack the Ripper since little is truly known about that killer. And it isn't like the Fate series hasn't pushed the line of what can be summoned in this series. They've used monsters and serial killers in previous series.

I'm kind of curious what kind of relic one would use to summon that person or if they just went pure random with the summon and that's what they got.

[germanturkey]

so is Jeanne supposed to be the protagonist of the show?

any who, A-1 is doing their best, and it's showing. the show is beautiful to see in motion. Mordred's character is neat. she is constantly seeking validation because Arthur only saw her as a servant.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I'm kind of curious what kind of relic one would use to summon that person or if they just went pure random with the summon and that's what they got.

I'm not a source-reader so I can only assume the "relic" is a piece of the remains of Jackie's victims, the murder weapon, or a piece of Jackie's body left during the murder (hair, etc). It's a magical society so I won't even question how those people got their hands on them "relics". That, or it's just a random result of summoning.

[kk2extreme]

More important question is

How do Shakespeare fight? Summon character from his stories?

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I'm sure they wouldn't have minded gender-bending either way, but I'm ok with it for the reasons above. You can basically insert anything in the role of Jack the Ripper since little is truly known about that killer. And it isn't like the Fate series hasn't pushed the line of what can be summoned in this series. They've used monsters and serial killers in previous series.

I'm kind of curious what kind of relic one would use to summon that person or if they just went pure random with the summon and that's what they got.

I'm aware we had questionable heroic servants before, but I felt there was room for argument about them depending interpretation, but here is kind of hard to buy.

Maybe there is something wrong with the Grail...

[Dengar]

Well, Avenger infected the grail during the third war in the main timeline, although it's uncertain whether this also happened in the current timeline. I think not, but it all depends on whether that event happened before or after the divergence.

Originally Posted by kk2extreme

More important question is

How do Shakespeare fight? Summon character from his stories?

Casters who are writers or artists tend to have abilities based on emotional manipulation.

Basically, Shakespeare's "legend" is that he was able to enchant his audience through his plays. Taking "enchant" literally, rather than figuratively. The idea is that the Fate versions of these people either actually had some magical ability in life (while not an artist, Archimedes comes to mind, who in the Fate verse is assumed to have been a magus because some of his alleged inventions are impossible to reproduce through mundane means), or time and word of mouth have attributed magical abilities to them.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Anything goes in Nasu-verse. Next thing we know, they'll make Jackie a hero by claiming that the hookers that she murdered were secretly vampires .

That's why I've given up in thinking too hard about these things. Just throw me a reason and I'll take it and move on .

[Dengar]

You know, if you hate this show so much that you need to throw insults at it at every turn and turn every discussion sour with that kind of snark, why do you even watch it?

I mean you're basically claiming that they can bullshit their way out of anything and people will just accept it. Which is a gross oversimplification of what's going on.


Your explanation won't work in the Fate verse and you know it.


Jack the Ripper is recorded in history as one of the most memorable serial killers. That makes her rather villainous. We've had villainous servants before. Like a serial child murderer? Even before Avenger corrupted the Holy Grail, they were able to summon a being responding to the name of "all the world's evil" in the first place.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Dengar

You know, if you hate this show so much that you need to throw insults at it at every turn and turn every discussion sour with that kind of snark, why do you even watch it?

I don't know why you're so offended by me stating the obvious. I like Fate anime as much as I like YGO anime (see my avy & sig). And hey, Shirou in this one even has Malik Ishtar's hairdo, so that's more plus for me .

I enjoy all the absurdity of the Fate anime just like I enjoy the absurdity of Voltron, Thundercats and Transformers cartoons which all of them are beloved franchises of mine. That doesn't mean I have to treat them as gospel, sing praise of them every single time and can't make fun of them. God knows how many fun pokes I did toward the franchises that I love. Fans must know how to have fun with their objects of affection.

My posts in Apoc thread is nowhere near hating. It's not even disliking. I enjoy this anime. The servants are amusing, the character designs are appealing, the combat that's been show so far is good. You want to see me disliking something? See my latest post in the Macross Delta & Token Ranbu: Hanamaru threads .

Originally Posted by Dengar

I mean you're basically claiming that they can bullshit their way out of anything and people will just accept it. Which is a gross oversimplification of what's going on.

Overall, I think you took the playful pokes of mine too seriously. And considering Fate fans' level of acceptance for anything Fate, it's not really hard to see them doing it.

What if I say the battles that I have seen in Apoc so far are still below the best fights in Prisma Illya which is in the same franchise? Will you also be up in arms by claiming that I'm hating this show?

Originally Posted by Dengar

Your explanation won't work in the Fate verse and you know it.

No I don't. That depends on the writing of this particular work.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Jack the Ripper is recorded in history as one of the most memorable serial killers. That makes her rather villainous. We've had villainous servants before. Like a serial child murderer? Even before Avenger corrupted the Holy Grail, they were able to summon a being responding to the name of "all the world's evil" in the first place.

And I'm still waiting the reasoning of why these villains in Apoc are able to be summoned by a supposed vessel that only summoned heroic spirits.

[Tenzen12]

Mo-chan is even greater now that she is animated. She and Kairi alone are solid reason watch it. Though this episode had one or two decent moment even aside of that. Maybe anime will be actually not that bad? Well there is still not story cancer, so I am not too hopeful though.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I'm not a source-reader so I can only assume the "relic" is a piece of the remains of Jackie's victims, the murder weapon, or a piece of Jackie's body left during the murder (hair, etc). It's a magical society so I won't even question how those people got their hands on them "relics". That, or it's just a random result of summoning.

Jack the ripper is similar to assassins in that aspect he(she) is not single person. No one know who Jack was so any of Jack candidates can be summoned as jack.

But if Jack the loli stripper existed, murdered people and left weapon or hair on spot, it could mean it could be used summon this particular jack, yes. Letters could be probably considered as universal catalyst as they helped shape legend of Jack the Ripper even if they are considered fake. (I don't think this ever mentioned in apocryha alone and shouldn't affect story, so not spoiler?)

Originally Posted by Dengar

You know, if you hate this show so much that you need to throw insults at it at every turn and turn every discussion sour with that kind of snark, why do you even watch it?

I mean you're basically claiming that they can bullshit their way out of anything and people will just accept it. Which is a gross oversimplification of what's going on.



Jack the Ripper is recorded in history as one of the most memorable serial killers. That makes her rather villainous. We've had villainous servants before. Like a serial child murderer? Even before Avenger corrupted the Holy Grail, they were able to summon a being responding to the name of "all the world's evil" in the first place.

Actually, yes writters of Fate franchise can bullshit their way out of anything and people will indeed accept it. If they didn't Franchise wouldn't exist in first place. Also avenger is "all the worlds evil" it's literally his name and it was summoned because Einzbern, one of families that made holly grail ritual, was cheating. Villainous servant could be summoned only because grail was corrupted afterwards. And considering Einzberns didn't summoned avenger in third here, Jack shouldn't be summonable. It's plot hole and apo is actually not as good as Nasu works in bulshitining through. You are still free enjoy, but don't try make it sound like it has no plot holes.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Jack the ripper is similar to assassins in that aspect he(she) is not single person. No one know who Jack was so any of Jack candidates can be summoned as jack.

But if Jack the loli stripper existed, murdered people and left weapon or hair on spot, it could mean it could be used summon this particular jack, yes. Letters could be probably considered as universal catalyst as they helped shape legend of Jack the Ripper even if they were probably fake.

Thanks for the informative reply. So, there are many forms of Jack just like Hassan? Now that's interesting. Man, I really want to see a Jack form that resembles the Jack in Detective Conan movie .