[Manga] Naruto Chapter 522 Discussion

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by Kotengu

Wow. . .
you stated a lot of things as fact that were just your opinion.

It's pretty much the only way he can go with the rails he has been putting.

I mean, in the last 2 chapters, we got : Suigetsu wants sword. Juugo is with him. Zabuza has sword. Kimimaro comes to him.
How can it NOT happen ? Especially when Kishi made us wait 1 year for Suigetsu's escape because it had to happen the very same chapter Zabuza got the sword Suigetsu wants.

I'll just pick out 2.
Refering to sasuke's team-sasuke. I would really like to see suigetsu's swordsmanship, but bee stomped him in terms of raw skill. Also they are looking for the armory where they think the sword is (thou Zabuza already has it for some reason)Chiyo shouldn't have any puppets if she was rezzed anything like her grandson. So her fighting vs Sakura isn't something that would be much of a show.

It still the only dead character Sakura has a link to and half the zombies were brought back simply for the sake of giving pseudo-emotional fights.

Both of these events would be cool, but aren't really that plausible. From simply the standpoint of Kishi not being able to make very complex story, why/how would Sasuke's team participate in a battle that could possibly turn into some kind of crazy 3way verses just them without Sasuke?

Their ties to the swords and Kimimaro are at least as strong as their ties to Sasuke.
Why do you think Karin was made a special case and attacked by Sasuke ? Because unlike Suigetsu and Juugo, she hadn't any other ties, so she had to be given a reason to forsake Sasuke.

Also what is Chiyo going to use to fight Sakura with?

What did Shin and Sasori attack with ? It's not like it matters. She is not here for her fighting abilities.

[Jehuty]

1) Why isn't Samehada with the previous wielder? It's crap that Zabuza gets his sword summoned while the other guy doesn't.

2) What the hell, apparently Kabutomaru knows exactly what's going on, on an even better level than Nagato could with the Pein bodies.

Those 2 points alone seriously hamper my enjoyment of the manga. Nevermind the sword thing, that's just bs.. But making even the Rinnegan's ability look lame is just wrong.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Rahan

It's pretty much the only way he can go with the rails he has been putting.

I mean, in the last 2 chapters, we got : Suigetsu wants sword. Juugo is with him. Zabuza has sword. Kimimaro comes to him.
How can it NOT happen ? Especially when Kishi made us wait 1 year for Suigetsu's escape because it had to happen the very same chapter Zabuza got the sword Suigetsu wants.

What you're saying makes sense drama-wise but the circumstances make it a little less than plausible. Suigetsu and Juugo have no idea what's going on. And even if they quickly get caught up to speed about the war and Edo Tensei, I'm not really sure how they'd piece together that zombie Zabuza has his sword back and that he and the rest of the past swordsmen fighting Kakashi's team at the moment. Then somehow they'd have to arrive in time to join the battle even though they're probably hours away by foot at the very least.

I think eventually it's possible that Suigetsu and Juugo encounter Zabuza and maybe other swordsmen. I don't know about them entering the current battle. They already said their current goal is finding Sasuke and Karin.

Originally Posted by Jehuty

What the hell, apparently Kabutomaru knows exactly what's going on, on an even better level than Nagato could with the Pein bodies.

Meh. Sandaime had a crystal ball that seemed to let him peek in on just about anyone he wanted. Of course, that was very early in the story.

Kabuto can perceive what's going on but it's not the same as Rinnegan. He's not actually experiencing their point-of-view.

Originally Posted by LadyKikyo91

We really don't know if Team Ebisu is even in the war yet though. I agree Moegi and Udon could use some development.

I don't really care much about Moegi and Udon, but it would be nice to see Konohamaru develop some leadership skills. And more Hanabi is always good. Don't really expect to see any of them though.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Jehuty

1) Why isn't Samehada with the previous wielder? It's crap that Zabuza gets his sword summoned while the other guy doesn't.

While it is unclear where Kubikiri Hōchō was kept since Suigetsu lost it in Iron, its recent appearance is far more acceptable than if the other summoned zombie Swordsmen all had their swords or copies of their swords. Kubikiri Hōchō was at least "in play" (without an owner, and seemingly kept in a vault somewhere, or possibly even taken by Kabuto), but the other swords are all seemingly with new owners, so there appearance would make little sense (especially considering that none of the Zombies have been summoned with their tools, only their abilities).

Originally Posted by Jehuty

2) What the hell, apparently Kabutomaru knows exactly what's going on, on an even better level than Nagato could with the Pein bodies.

Kabuto does know of the Zombvies activities, but he isn't controlling them (beyond their brainwashing), nor does he appear to be "seeing" through their eyes. In fact, the board game he has set-up seems to correspond to how he wishes them to move, rather than an active control over their bodies (ala the Paths of Pain).

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

What you're saying makes sense drama-wise but the circumstances make it a little less than plausible. Suigetsu and Juugo have no idea what's going on. And even if they quickly get caught up to speed about the war and Edo Tensei, I'm not really sure how they'd piece together that zombie Zabuza has his sword back and that he and the rest of the past swordsmen fighting Kakashi's team at the moment. Then somehow they'd have to arrive in time to join the battle even though they're probably hours away by foot at the very least.

Well, I stand by my position.
Also, after rereading the chapter, I noticed Suigetsu said the security suddenly loosened. Which means that scene took place when the samurais left their country to join the alliance army, not during the Kakashi's battle. (or Suigetsu would say security loosened days ago, not "suddenly")
It's like when Naruto ran after Sakura who ran after Sasuke. Kishi waited for the last moment to show Naruto starting to move.

I think eventually it's possible that Suigetsu and Juugo encounter Zabuza and maybe other swordsmen. I don't know about them entering the current battle. They already said their current goal is finding Sasuke and Karin.

Then it's fine because if they look for Sasuke, they will need to go through the alliance army heading to Madara's hideout.

Originally Posted by james0246

Kabuto does know of the Zombvies activities, but he isn't controlling them (beyond their brainwashing), nor does he appear to be "seeing" through their eyes. In fact, the board game he has set-up seems to correspond to how he wishes them to move, rather than an active control over their bodies (ala the Paths of Pain).

He hears them talking (when he mentioned Kakashi and Zabuza's chitchat lasted long enough.
I don't see why he would have the audio, but not the video.

I think his perception of the zombies is just as good as Nagato's perception of Pain.

[james0246]

^Even if Kabuto can see what they are doing (which I am not necessarily convinced of), it is still not the same as Nagato who not only saw (and presumably felt) what the bodies did, but directly controlled the bodies (they were shells for Nagato's will, whereas the zombies are, at worst, puppets to Kabuto). So, ultimately their perceptions are still very different.

[DeDe]

I am trying to understand what Kabuto means about it being to his advantage to let six of the zombies retain their personalities. I am saying six because when he said it, we saw closeups on Itachi, Kakuzu, Nagato, Asuma, Dan, and Hizashi. This was right after Kabuto said that leaving the personalities of Team SasoDei is what led to their defeat. So wouldn't that mean he has to take their personalities away?

So what is he talking about? And why those six?

Originally Posted by Rahan

Well, I stand by my position.
Also, after rereading the chapter, I noticed Suigetsu said the security suddenly loosened. Which means that scene took place when the samurais left their country to join the alliance army, not during the Kakashi's battle. (or Suigetsu would say security loosened days ago, not "suddenly")
It's like when Naruto ran after Sakura who ran after Sasuke. Kishi waited for the last moment to show Naruto starting to move.

If that was the case, the panels would have been darkened around the borders to indicate it took place in the past. But these panels were in the current time as Kakashi's battle is taking place.

Kishi can be a little sketchy with his timeline, but even he can't write Suigetsu and Juugo in this current battle from that position. They are likely hours if not days away from the conflict they know nothing about. A conflict they have no business being apart of anyway. Remember, they are wanted criminals. They will likely try to avoid thousands of armed ninja who will kill them.

I honestly see them doing exactly what they say. They will look for Sasuke and Karin which will take them out of the story again. The war is just way big and too many important characters need screetime for anyone to worry about what Sasuke's non-important former lackeys are doing. They were shown in this chapter to update their status and to show what happened to Zabuza's cleaver.

I do like the idea of Mei Terumi and her little bodyguard involving themselves in the 7 Swordsmen fight. We saw her with the other Kages in Kumo, but have not seem her since the army marched. But it doesn't make sense with the story. Gaara seems to be the only Kage who marched with the army. The other Kages seem to be staying in Kumo. It makes much more sense that Mei is personally guarding the turtle island that Naruto is in.

Kakashi is going to have to get support from another division.

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by DeDe

If that was the case, the panels would have been darkened around the borders to indicate it took place in the past. But these panels were in the current time as Kakashi's battle is taking place.

Kishi can be a little sketchy with his timeline, but even he can't write Suigetsu and Juugo in this current battle from that position. They are likely hours if not days away from the conflict they know nothing about. A conflict they have no business being apart of anyway. Remember, they are wanted criminals. They will likely try to avoid thousands of armed ninja who will kill them.

This is exactly the same thing Kishi did with Naruto / Sakura / Sasuke

Naruto started his trick on Yamato after Kiba revealed they were 1 km from Sasuke. Danzou was already dead.
Yet Yamato had the time to nap and to give Naruto enough time to rest before Sakura ran this kilometer. (the skirmish with her teammates was very short).

Kishi didn't darken the panels except for the panels when Naruto was running and reminiscing how he tricked Yamato.

I honestly see them doing exactly what they say. They will look for Sasuke and Karin which will take them out of the story again. The war is just way big and too many important characters need screetime for anyone to worry about what Sasuke's non-important former lackeys are doing.

Suigetsu and Juugo are allegedly just as important as those "important" characters.
And if they don't fight, they won't fight ever and will just be written out of the story. What purpose are they to Sasuke now ?
Suigetsu and the swordsmen of the Mist ? who cares, that's not like this was all what was the character was about.

[Kotengu]

Originally Posted by DeDe

I honestly see them doing exactly what they say. They will look for Sasuke and Karin which will take them out of the story again. The war is just way big and too many important characters need screetime for anyone to worry about what Sasuke's non-important former lackeys are doing. They were shown in this chapter to update their status and to show what happened to Zabuza's cleaver.

I also see the need for Jugo and Suigetsu to return to Sasuke for direction. Sasuke's mentality now is much different from how it was even when they were fighting Bee or his brother. Specifically because of how he treated Karin during the Bee fight vs how he treated her during the Danzo fight.

Kabuto is in control of the current fighting Forces being "directed" by Madara, both of whom don't care about Sasuke's team. As Sasuke is now, I doubt that he would even care weather or not they were killed by the alliance or zombies as he kinda just left them there to draw the heat while he attacked the Kages. He even made a promise to Jugo when they first met, but clearly isn't thinking about it now. I don't see Suigetsu draging Jugo into a fight to obtain a broken sword that wasn't his to begin with. Thou at the same time some dialouge between Suigetsu and the mist swords could be very comical(if they weren't already mindless).

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by Kotengu

He even made a promise to Jugo when they first met, but clearly isn't thinking about it now. I don't see Suigetsu draging Jugo into a fight to obtain a broken sword that wasn't his to begin with.

This is actually why Juugo must fight Kimimaro.

Kimimaro was the one restraining Suigetsu (Sasuke was merely his replacement from his own words).
Now it's time for Juugo to return the favor and let Kimimaro rest in peace.

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by Rahan

This is exactly the same thing Kishi did with Naruto / Sakura / Sasuke

Naruto started his trick on Yamato after Kiba revealed they were 1 km from Sasuke. Danzou was already dead.
Yet Yamato had the time to nap and to give Naruto enough time to rest before Sakura ran this kilometer. (the skirmish with her teammates was very short).

Kishi didn't darken the panels except for the panels when Naruto was running and reminiscing how he tricked Yamato.

I said Kishi can be sketchy with his timeline. But this is different. We are seeing them in the Land of Iron's capital just looking for Suigetsu's weapon while the battle is taking place. If Kishi wanted them in these fights, he would have shown them escaping in chapter 515. But he didn't.

Suigetsu might pick up the sword after the battle is over and the troops have been either killed or have long moved on. Cause as I said, they would be killed on sight if they went anywhere near the fighting.

Originally Posted by Rahan

Suigetsu and Juugo are allegedly just as important as those "important" characters.
And if they don't fight, they won't fight ever and will just be written out of the story. What purpose are they to Sasuke now ?
Suigetsu and the swordsmen of the Mist ? who cares, that's not like this was all what was the character was about.

They're not. Kishi himself said at Jump Festa 2008 he was forced to write about them due to his publisher. They were only written about because they were with Sasuke. Once Sasuke left, Kishi didn't touch them for over a year. That tells you all you need to know.

No matter what background stories they have, their existence in the story is based solely on Sasuke. That's their only role in the story. So they will go after Karin(which will lead them to Konoha and away from the war) and then seek Sasuke. This will occur offscreen since no one wants valuable panel time wasted on them. Perhaps they will be part of EMS Sasuke's Moral Event Horizon at a later date.

Originally Posted by Rahan

This is actually why Juugo must fight Kimimaro.

Kimimaro was the one restraining Suigetsu (Sasuke was merely his replacement from his own words).
Now it's time for Juugo to return the favor and let Kimimaro rest in peace.

Rock Lee will fight Kimimaro. Kimimaro outclassed Lee when they first fought. To show his improvement, Kishi will have Lee defeat Kimimaro.

[Frenchie]

So much for easily discernible match-ups.

[Cael]

I think it's possible Suigetsu and Juugo could end up in the battle, but I also like the idea of them searching for Sasuke. They know where Madara's Hideout is, so maybe they will head back there and in doing so, stumble across Kabuto. All three have worked or been an Orochimaru pawn at one time or another. I would imagine they know Kabuto.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by DeDe

Rock Lee will fight Kimimaro. Kimimaro outclassed Lee when they first fought. To show his improvement, Kishi will have Lee defeat Kimimaro.

Blah. The less I see of Lee, the better. I much preffer the Juugo v. Kimimaro line-up rather than anything to do with Rock Lee. If Kishimoto had to decide, I hope he goes for Juugo over Lee, but, if nothing else, I hope for a tag team rather than just Lee, because Lee v. Kimiaro has far less emotional impact than Juugo v. Kimimaro.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by james0246

Blah. The less I see of Lee, the better. I much preffer the Juugo v. Kimimaro line-up rather than anything to do with Rock Lee. If Kishimoto had to decide, I hope he goes for Juugo over Lee, but, if nothing else, I hope for a tag team rather than just Lee, because Lee v. Kimiaro has far less emotional impact than Juugo v. Kimimaro.

If the Juugu and Kimimaro relationship were developed more, than I would agree. But it wasn't. Neither fight has any emotional impact.

Asuma and Shikamaru? Okay I get it. Kishimoto based a whole arc around it.
Neji and Hizashi? Father and son. The whole reason for Neji's angst.
Tsunade and Dan? Her fiance.
Gaara and the Kazekage? His father who put him through hell.
Itachi and Sasuke? Do we even need to go there?

Those are emotional roller-coaster fights with development. The rest don't measure up.

I don't want to see Lee fight Kimi either. And please god no drunk Lee. A Lee/Sakura tag team against Haku would be preferable.

Originally Posted by DeDe

Perhaps they will be part of EMS Sasuke's Moral Event Horizon at a later date.

Sasuke's first victims for his new eyes? But we already saw him "kill" Karin. There would be no point in him doing it again to those two. But I agree that they will likely track Sasuke down. Basically their role is to once again tell the audience that Sasuke has "changed". Then get beat up.

Originally Posted by DeDe

I am trying to understand what Kabuto means about it being to his advantage to let six of the zombies retain their personalities. I am saying six because when he said it, we saw closeups on Itachi, Kakuzu, Nagato, Asuma, Dan, and Hizashi. This was right after Kabuto said that leaving the personalities of Team SasoDei is what led to their defeat. So wouldn't that mean he has to take their personalities away?

So what is he talking about? And why those six?

Kabuto has no idea how far he can push his control over the zombies. How many can he control at one time? We saw what happens when he doesn't.

The key might be to get into as many fights with the zombies as possible to overload Kabuto. It might take all the divisions, the Kages, and Naruto facing 30 plus zombies at the same time. Than TnJ will come back into play. And I think we can all imagine a scenario where some of zombies like Itachi, in their last act, kill Kabuto.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

If the Juugu and Kimimaro relationship were developed more, than I would agree. But it wasn't. Neither fight has any emotional impact.

That is false. Juugo's entire framework as a character is based on his friendship with Kimimaro. True, Kishimoto has never really developed this beyond the initial flashback, but that initial flashback is an actual emotional connection rather than any connection Lee and Kimimaro may have (btw, they have no connection beyond their brief skirmish, and if we are talking redux fights, then it should be Kimimaro v. Gaara (with Kimimaro winning ).

In other words, Kimimaro v. Juugo fits quite well with the other emotional fights you've listed (and current lack of definition on part of the participants only encourages the possibility since it would allow Kishimoto to wrap up the characters story in a few chapters). (And, let’s face it, Lee really doesn’t have a specific story beyond his desire to prove his self worth, and honestly I’d hate to waste time on a chapter where the sole point of a fight is for a character to feel good about themselves.)

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by james0246

That is false. Juugo's entire framework as a character is based on his friendship with Kimimaro.

A friendship we never saw and was never expanded upon. Also, what framework? What the fuck do we know about Juugo?

True, Kishimoto has never really developed this beyond the initial flashback, but that initial flashback is an actual emotional connection

No it isn't. Who fucking cares about Juugo?

rather than any connection Lee and Kimimaro may have (btw, they have no connection beyond their brief skirmish, and if we are talking redux fights, then it should be Kimimaro v. Gaara (with Kimimaro winning ).

There was much more emotion in Rock Lee's battle against Kimimaro than there ever was in some stupid two panel flashback. It would be fairly cool to see Lee finally defeat Kimimaro (granted I think the whole zombie thing is stupid to begin with).

In other words, Kimimaro v. Juugo fits quite well with the other emotional fights you've listed

Not really, because the other potential match-ups have some emotional depth behind them and involve characters that we like.

(and current lack of definition on part of the participants only encourages the possibility since it would allow Kishimoto to wrap up the characters story in a few chapters).

Yes, I too love how Kishi is ham-fisting these resolutions into the story for characters that he's completely neglected up until this point.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by james0246

That is false. Juugo's entire framework as a character is based on his friendship with Kimimaro. True, Kishimoto has never really developed this beyond the initial flashback, but that initial flashback is an actual emotional connection rather than any connection Lee and Kimimaro may have (btw, they have no connection beyond their brief skirmish, and if we are talking redux fights, then it should be Kimimaro v. Gaara (with Kimimaro winning ).

I agree with all of this, but I think DeDe has a point when she said that Kishimoto didn't care for Juugo/Suigetsu. Despite the better emotional quality Kimimaro vs Juugo would have over Kimimaro vs Lee, I don't think the premise is set for the fights to occur. Neither ninjas are sensors, so just finding Karin, let alone the battlefield in some other country, is going to be a pain in the ass for them.

Their best bet would be to go to Madara's hideout and rejoin with Sasuke, but how long is that going to take? Not to mention Juugo doesn't have the Sharingan tranquilizing pill.

(And, let’s face it, Lee really doesn’t have a specific story beyond his desire to prove his self worth, and honestly I’d hate to waste time on a chapter where the sole point of a fight is for a character to feel good about themselves.)

Not to mention my interest in Lee solely lied in how many freaking gates he could open, and seeing as Gai was the one to showcase that craziness, I have absolutely no further interest in him fighting.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

A friendship we never saw and was never expanded upon. Also, what framework? What the fuck do we know about Juugo?

We know that Kimimaro was Juugo’s only friend, confidant and even (somewhat) conscience (WWKD ~ What Would Kimimaro Do?). That is a framework for a character definition. (And yes, we all know Kishimoto never cared enough to expand on that framework, so complaining about it ad nauseum is getting a little boring.)

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

No it isn't. Who fucking cares about Juugo?

Lee is just a one-dimensional Gai-clone as useless as Juugo, the only difference is Lee has had 2 fights (that he has lost) versus Juugo's mini-battles (that he has lost). Hell, the simple fact that we've never seen Juugo go all out makes me more interested (from a purely visceral level) in a fight between Juugo and Kimimaro than anything Lee would do (let's face it, anything Lee would do in such a fight would simply be what we've already seen Gai do in his stupid battle with Kisame, at least with Juugo, while he would just use his transformations, there could at least be some variance we do not know about (or something else along those lines).

That being said isn't "Who cares" a fairly silly question? Obviously I do (to an extent), as do some of the others that have mentioned the potential battle. True, we care more from the perspective of simply finishing the various characters stories (insert generic Nobodyman comment concerning Kishimoto's writing abilities ), but in the end that is far more than simply wishing to see Lee win against a former opponent...

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Not really, because the other potential match-ups have some emotional depth behind them and involve characters that we like.

I do not deny that there is more emotional depth behind some of the other familial match-ups, but Juugo v. Kimimaro (whether you think their relationship was "deep" or not) does clearly fall in the same spectrum as the aforementioned match-ups (or it at least has some emotional relevance, unlike Lee v. Kimimaro).

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Yes, I too love how Kishi is ham-fisting these resolutions into the story for characters that he's completely neglected up until this point.

Never claimed it was good, and I never claimed I liked the lack of detail. Rather, I said Lee v. Kimimaro was less "emotional" than Juugo v. Kimimaro. Whether I like the resulting match-up or not has nothing to do with my statement concerning the issue.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by james0246

We know that Kimimaro was Juugo’s only friend, confidant and even (somewhat) conscience (WWKD ~ What Would Kimimaro Do?). That is a framework for a character definition. (And yes, we all know Kishimoto never cared enough to expand on that framework, so complaining about it ad nauseum is getting a little boring.)

We know nothing about Juugo. He's a vapid soulless character who's only traits are being the source of the curse mark transformation (not a character trait) and that he suffers from some sort of psychosis (which was kinda interesting, but fell flat).

As for his relationship with Kimimaro, so what? I don't care about Juugo's character nor do I care if his story is resolved (if there is anything to resolve). And why should I not complain about Kishi's terrible writing?

Lee is just a one-dimensional Gai-clone as useless as Juugo

You and I clearly have not been reading the same manga. Lee very much admires Gai, but he is by no means his clone. They have different personalities and behavioral traits.

the only difference is Lee has had 2 fights (that he has lost) versus Juugo's mini-battles (that he has lost). Hell, the simple fact that we've never seen Juugo go all out makes me more interested (from a purely visceral level) in a fight between Juugo and Kimimaro than anything Lee would do (let's face it, anything Lee would do in such a fight would simply be what we've already seen Gai do in his stupid battle with Kisame, at least with Juugo, while he would just use his transformations, there could at least be some variance we do not know about (or something else along those lines).

Why are you being so superficial about this? I love how you just write-off Lee's fights (one of which being the best fight in the series, mind you). But again, why should I care about Juugo going all out when I don't even care about his character in the first place? And as for your comment about him using variance, who's to say that Lee won't bring some variance to the table?

That being said isn't "Who cares" a fairly silly question? Obviously I do (to an extent), as do some of the others that have mentioned the potential battle. True, we care more from the perspective of simply finishing the various characters stories (insert generic Nobodyman comment concerning Kishimoto's writing abilities ), but in the end that is far more than simply wishing to see Lee win against a former opponent...

How is it possible to emote with Juugo? How is that even possible?

I do not deny that there is more emotional depth behind some of the other familial match-ups, but Juugo v. Kimimaro (whether you think their relationship was "deep" or not) does clearly fall in the same spectrum as the aforementioned match-ups (or it at least has some emotional relevance, unlike Lee v. Kimimaro).

Your thinking in very narrow terms. What you consider "emotional" is, "Ah! I must face my old friend whom I deeply cared for and am reluctant to fight against, but I must also free him from his zombie prison!" How about the emotional concept of, "Haha! I will fight my old foe from my past and I will show how much stronger I've become by defeating him!"

Never claimed it was good, and I never claimed I liked the lack of detail. Rather, I said Lee v. Kimimaro was less "emotional" than Juugo v. Kimimaro. Whether I like the resulting match-up or not has nothing to do with my statement concerning the issue.

You know, I've just realized something. Who cares if it's emotional? Why should we care about the supposed "emotions" between two characters we know nothing about?