AnimeSuki Forums

Kotohono · 2010-09-30, 10:08

On the animesuki home page for series, I've noticed a number of recent series of this year are listed as "Removed" rather than "Licensed" with links to their torrents/series removed and I'm curious as to why? Since unlike Licensed series it provides no details.

***GHDpro*** · 2010-09-30, 11:12

We have received word through a trustworthy source that Crunchyroll is (or was in our case) planning to send out DMCA notices to us regarding any Crunchyroll series we were listing. For this reason all CR series have been marked as "Removed as Request".

The reason we haven't marked them as "Licensed" instead is that we currently define a "license" as pertaining to DVD/BD only, which isn't the case for most Crunchyroll series. We (AnimeSuki staff) haven't decided yet whether we need to revise our definition of a "license" or create a new kind of tag (like "Streaming" or something).

One of my own main concerns with treating CR series like any other license is that streaming "licenses" can be fleeting (Kadokawa series get removed 30 days after the last episode) and region restricted, plus not always free (like Fairy Tail). Compared to region protection on DVDs/BDs getting around the region restrictions for streaming is not quite as easy.

The end result of this all is however that we end up with less series to list again (that was the main reason we stopped considering CR series as "licensed" in a traditional sense a year ago). However, one idea that came out of a poll/survey (1, 2) we did some time ago was that we could start listing streams on the site.

To anyone who reads this: would you like to see legal streams (mainly CR initially) listed on the site? If so, should they be listed in a separate table and/or separate section of the site or integrated (mixed) with torrent listings? Any wishes/concerns?

Note that as implementing support for listing streams will take some time and will likely only be implemented in the new V3 site, it may take a few months (possible not until sometime 2011) before we'll be able to list streams (though perhaps earlier on the beta site).

(As the CR RSS feeds are quite "helpful" in terms of information they provide it should be possible to filter series on region restrictions, non-free series and when episodes are no longer available, so in theory it should be possible to only show links you can actually view)

Kafriel · 2010-09-30, 11:50

Quote:

To anyone who reads this: would you like to see legal streams (mainly CR initially) listed on the site? If so, should they be listed in a separate table and/or separate section of the site or integrated (mixed) with torrent listings? Any wishes/concerns?

Note that as implementing support for listing streams will take some time and will likely only be implemented in the new V3 site, it may take a few months (possible not until sometime 2011) before we'll be able to list streams (though perhaps earlier on the beta site).

Even if it takes time, a streaming option would be a good addition, although I'm not sure as to how necessary that would be (since you can, like, go to CR and stream it from there), but still...as for the presentation, I think that having a separate table for them would be less confusing than mixing them in with the torrents.

***GHDpro*** · 2010-09-30, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Even if it takes time, a streaming option would be a good addition, although I'm not sure as to how necessary that would be (since you can, like, go to CR and stream it from there), but still...as for the presentation, I think that having a separate table for them would be less confusing than mixing them in with the torrents.

We'd definitely be just linking to the relevant episode pages on streaming sites if we start listing streams, not syndication (like what AnimeNewsNetwork.com does).

Kotohono · 2010-09-30, 17:02

Thank you for clearing that up GDpro, as after posting I thought might have been related to Crunchyroll, but was curious if that was correct or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Even if it takes time, a streaming option would be a good addition, although I'm not sure as to how necessary that would be (since you can, like, go to CR and stream it from there), but still...as for the presentation, I think that having a separate table for them would be less confusing than mixing them in with the torrents.

I agree a separate table would be less confusing.

SeijiSensei · 2010-09-30, 20:39

Yes, I'll vote for a streaming section. Crunchy is hardly the only source these days. Funimation offers many of its series online, as do VIZ and whatever ADV/Anime Network is calling itself these days. The problem is obviously region-locking. I suspect that whatever listing you might choose to have will need a list of eligible country codes or something to that effect. Still, region-locking to North America might become a dead issue in the next year or two. I was surprised to see the list of countries that can watch Panty & Stocking on Crunchyroll. You might also want to distinguish between series that are free-to-view for everyone versus those that require subscriptions and identify series that are incomplete. For instance, CR has episodes 1-4 of Moribito with no indication whether any of the remaining 22 episodes will ever appear there.

On the other hand, there's also this thread at Mania, so perhaps another list here is redundant. Looking over the Mania list provided the shocking information that Sony has a complete dubbed stream of season one of Nodame Cantabile on its Crackle site that's available for viewing in (at least) R1. Quarkboy and I recently discussed why this show isn't distributed on DVDs in R1 or elsewhere.

Kudryavka · 2010-09-30, 21:53

I honestly don't see the point of region locking streams, it leaves a lot of people out in the cold. I know how I feel when I come across a Youtube video that's locked away from American viewers. Is it along the lines of region locking video games?

As long as links to streaming pages are provided on the main series's page, I think stream pages would be great.

SeijiSensei · 2010-09-30, 22:32

In the world of movies and television, regional controls were designed to protect the local distributors. Theater operators outside the US would be devastated if a movie they have the rights to show were suddenly available months before over the Internet. Don't expect that an incredibly complex and byzantine system of rights management will suddenly be overturned by the Internet. There are too many interests at stake, at least in the short term.

***relentlessflame*** · 2010-09-30, 23:19

In the interest of promoting some thought/discussion about this proposal, keep in mind that there are probably (at least) four different areas on the site to consider:

1. The main (previously "torrent") listing on the home page

2. The RSS feed based on the main listing

3. Series pages

4. Group pages

DragoZERO · 2010-10-01, 10:17

I think the Crunchyroll tag should be removed, period. Many series aren't only on CR so giving it the sole CR tag is wrong. Streaming or simulcasted works better, however simulcasts would have to be changed after a series finishes airing, and marked as streaming.

And I think it would be a nice idea to link the series to any sites that are streaming them, such as Hulu, and not just CR. I myself prefer all other streaming sites over CR for several reasons (this isn't the place to go into it). Plus CR's mini-monopoly may be broken in the future.

***relentlessflame*** · 2010-10-01, 20:36

This isn't really about the CR tags on the Forum though. We're talking about how they can/could be listed on the main AS website. That being said, if we implement this, our "Streaming" (or whatever they're called) links should probably link to the AS series page.

As for listing all the places that stream them or only the primary location... that could be a bit tricky to track, since some series could be available on multiple sites at different times and available in different regions on each (for example, CR series may be available in many countries, but Hulu is (AFAIK) still US-only). If all the sites provide descriptive RSS feeds as CR does, that might not be too bad, but I imagine it could get pretty complicated to track the listings of every legit site on the Net.

Simon · 2010-12-14, 21:29

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but what's AnimeSuki's policy on otherwise-unlicensed anime that CR has stopped streaming?

For example Aoi Hana is shown as licensed but isn't in the license DB (and I'm sure I would have heard the squeeing if someone picked it up for DVD release). The thread is tagged (CR) but Crunchyroll don't currently list the show.

I appreciate that "no listing" doesn't mean "no license", and I respect the site's desire to avoid DMCA notices. But is - or should - there be a way to restore torrent listings after some period of time with no licensed streaming? Previous threads have been dismissive of the torrent listings' importance, but personally I find them very helpful - especially in a case like this where I was responding to a post in the AS Suggestions forum.

Semi-related, the more info page that licensed shows link to doesn't discuss streaming licenses, and I couldn't find any mention of CR in the forum FAQ. Maybe it's worth adding, so casual visitors who stumble across a CR series listing aren't left confused?

2010-09-30, 20:39	Link #6
SeijiSensei AS Oji-kun Join Date: Nov 2006 Age: 74	Yes, I'll vote for a streaming section. Crunchy is hardly the only source these days. Funimation offers many of its series online, as do VIZ and whatever ADV/Anime Network is calling itself these days. The problem is obviously region-locking. I suspect that whatever listing you might choose to have will need a list of eligible country codes or something to that effect. Still, region-locking to North America might become a dead issue in the next year or two. I was surprised to see the list of countries that can watch Panty & Stocking on Crunchyroll. You might also want to distinguish between series that are free-to-view for everyone versus those that require subscriptions and identify series that are incomplete. For instance, CR has episodes 1-4 of Moribito with no indication whether any of the remaining 22 episodes will ever appear there. On the other hand, there's also this thread at Mania, so perhaps another list here is redundant. Looking over the Mania list provided the shocking information that Sony has a complete dubbed stream of season one of Nodame Cantabile on its Crackle site that's available for viewing in (at least) R1. Quarkboy and I recently discussed why this show isn't distributed on DVDs in R1 or elsewhere. __________________ Taking Anime Seriously - Politics by the Numbers - Sports by the Numbers - MAL List - Avatars - Images Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2010-09-30 at 20:49.

2010-09-30, 22:32	Link #8
SeijiSensei AS Oji-kun Join Date: Nov 2006 Age: 74	In the world of movies and television, regional controls were designed to protect the local distributors. Theater operators outside the US would be devastated if a movie they have the rights to show were suddenly available months before over the Internet. Don't expect that an incredibly complex and byzantine system of rights management will suddenly be overturned by the Internet. There are too many interests at stake, at least in the short term. __________________ Taking Anime Seriously - Politics by the Numbers - Sports by the Numbers - MAL List - Avatars - Images

2010-09-30, 23:19	Link #9
*relentlessflame* 　 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 41	In the interest of promoting some thought/discussion about this proposal, keep in mind that there are probably (at least) four different areas on the site to consider: 1. The main (previously "torrent") listing on the home page 2. The RSS feed based on the main listing 3. Series pages 4. Group pages __________________ [...]

2010-10-01, 10:17	Link #10
DragoZERO Spoilaphobic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: USA Age: 37	I think the Crunchyroll tag should be removed, period. Many series aren't only on CR so giving it the sole CR tag is wrong. Streaming or simulcasted works better, however simulcasts would have to be changed after a series finishes airing, and marked as streaming. And I think it would be a nice idea to link the series to any sites that are streaming them, such as Hulu, and not just CR. I myself prefer all other streaming sites over CR for several reasons (this isn't the place to go into it). Plus CR's mini-monopoly may be broken in the future. __________________ • Anime List \| Manga List \| Manga Thread Template •

2010-10-01, 20:36	Link #11
*relentlessflame* 　 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 41	This isn't really about the CR tags on the Forum though. We're talking about how they can/could be listed on the main AS website. That being said, if we implement this, our "Streaming" (or whatever they're called) links should probably link to the AS series page. As for listing all the places that stream them or only the primary location... that could be a bit tricky to track, since some series could be available on multiple sites at different times and available in different regions on each (for example, CR series may be available in many countries, but Hulu is (AFAIK) still US-only). If all the sites provide descriptive RSS feeds as CR does, that might not be too bad, but I imagine it could get pretty complicated to track the listings of every legit site on the Net. __________________ [...]

2010-09-30, 11:12	Link #2
*GHDpro* Administrator Administrator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Netherlands Age: 45	We have received word through a trustworthy source that Crunchyroll is (or was in our case) planning to send out DMCA notices to us regarding any Crunchyroll series we were listing. For this reason all CR series have been marked as "Removed as Request". The reason we haven't marked them as "Licensed" instead is that we currently define a "license" as pertaining to DVD/BD only, which isn't the case for most Crunchyroll series. We (AnimeSuki staff) haven't decided yet whether we need to revise our definition of a "license" or create a new kind of tag (like "Streaming" or something). One of my own main concerns with treating CR series like any other license is that streaming "licenses" can be fleeting (Kadokawa series get removed 30 days after the last episode) and region restricted, plus not always free (like Fairy Tail). Compared to region protection on DVDs/BDs getting around the region restrictions for streaming is not quite as easy. The end result of this all is however that we end up with less series to list again (that was the main reason we stopped considering CR series as "licensed" in a traditional sense a year ago). However, one idea that came out of a poll/survey (1, 2) we did some time ago was that we could start listing streams on the site. To anyone who reads this: would you like to see legal streams (mainly CR initially) listed on the site? If so, should they be listed in a separate table and/or separate section of the site or integrated (mixed) with torrent listings? Any wishes/concerns? Note that as implementing support for listing streams will take some time and will likely only be implemented in the new V3 site, it may take a few months (possible not until sometime 2011) before we'll be able to list streams (though perhaps earlier on the beta site). (As the CR RSS feeds are quite "helpful" in terms of information they provide it should be possible to filter series on region restrictions, non-free series and when episodes are no longer available, so in theory it should be possible to only show links you can actually view)

2010-09-30, 21:53	Link #7
Kudryavka Senior Member Join Date: May 2009	I honestly don't see the point of region locking streams, it leaves a lot of people out in the cold. I know how I feel when I come across a Youtube video that's locked away from American viewers. Is it along the lines of region locking video games? As long as links to streaming pages are provided on the main series's page, I think stream pages would be great.

2010-12-14, 21:29	Link #12
Simon 気持ち悪い Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New Zealand	Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but what's AnimeSuki's policy on otherwise-unlicensed anime that CR has stopped streaming? For example Aoi Hana is shown as licensed but isn't in the license DB (and I'm sure I would have heard the squeeing if someone picked it up for DVD release). The thread is tagged (CR) but Crunchyroll don't currently list the show. I appreciate that "no listing" doesn't mean "no license", and I respect the site's desire to avoid DMCA notices. But is - or should - there be a way to restore torrent listings after some period of time with no licensed streaming? Previous threads have been dismissive of the torrent listings' importance, but personally I find them very helpful - especially in a case like this where I was responding to a post in the AS Suggestions forum. Semi-related, the more info page that licensed shows link to doesn't discuss streaming licenses, and I couldn't find any mention of CR in the forum FAQ. Maybe it's worth adding, so casual visitors who stumble across a CR series listing aren't left confused? __________________ And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Akihabara to be born?