Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Q&A/Discussion about Magic & Technology

[Marcus H.]

Maybe. I can take ten times as much exposition in Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon, but not here.
Maybe it's primarily because it's like reading a thesis or an academic journal.

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by kusabireika

But due to tatsuya invention it lessen the mana consumption of certain spell like the spamable type of magic unless you refering to empty hand method or cad without loopcast method ?

for spamming magic loop cast is being used because it uses the initial activation sequence to cast same spell over and over.The psion consumption to create the spell itself remains the same only the psion consumption for activation sequence is reduced.

Originally Posted by Rava

There's obviously a downside to spamming magic outside of the "magic exhaustion" factor or we'd be seeing it more often. It just hasn't been very visible. Some types of magic are pointless to spam as well, like Miyuki's Niflheim or Leo's Fortification magic. So far, though, magic spam only really occurs with magic that's easy for the spammer to use. So Hale Particles, Air Bullet, and Tatsuya's Gram magics and (unfortunately) Mist Dispersal.

you are right remember the testing for the fly type magic at FLT 3rd division, all the tester where exhausted for using the fly type magic that needs a constant supply of psions to work.
Also in combat rarely we see people run out of psions because the fights don`t last that long.

As magic spamming go myukis niflheim is a a rank spell with a wide area effect, and it takes a lot of focus to maintain that spell that's not a spell one can just spam.
The spells we saw being used in a "spam effect" are usually simple spells and single target spells like air bullets, gram demolition, Mist dispersal etc.

Originally Posted by Guest2

But this world's setting isn't an actual video game, magic is a science that uses advanced technology to make the casting process more efficient. These people have actual peaceful day Jobs as Magic Technicians where they might have to use their magic all day.

The CAD only reduces the psion consumption for creating activation sequences, the less psions are used the faster the activation sequence can be constructed. But the cad does not reduce the consumption of psions for the actual spell construction.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Guest2: Sure, it's not a video game, but it simulates the slow natural recovery rate of the human body. That's the reason why we can't do a lot of things at the same time without getting tired. All this technology catering the efficiency of psion usage seemed excessively convenient, and I personally wanted psions to be used intelligently even by high-level characters.

Psions are used intelligently its not like the high-level magicians just wastes them for no reason. How many times tatsuya used magic in a spam capacity? besides that 9SC gram demolition thing that not actually count as spamming.
Psion use lead to mental fatigue.
Remember the battle with the parasites in volume 11? at the end miyuki was very tired and barely being able to stand let alone walk(tatsuya was carrying her at that point ), all that after using her ZI at almost full strength and using the cocytus, even lina and tatsuya were tired. So yes they didn`t run out of psions but the use of magic took a big toll on their minds and its also statted if you overextend yopurself using magic can have a lot worse consequences like reducing the life spam of an individual, creating physical problems etc. Miya, Honami they both overused their magics and they ended up either directly dead or they only lived for a short while after.

[kusabireika]

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

for spamming magic loop cast is being used because it uses the initial activation sequence to cast same spell over and over.The psion consumption to create the spell itself remains the same only the psion consumption for activation sequence is reduced.



you are right remember the testing for the fly type magic at FLT 3rd division, all the tester where exhausted for using the fly type magic that needs a constant supply of psions to work.
Also in combat rarely we see people run out of psions because the fights don`t last that long.

As magic spamming go myukis niflheim is a a rank spell with a wide area effect, and it takes a lot of focus to maintain that spell that's not a spell one can just spam.
The spells we saw being used in a "spam effect" are usually simple spells and single target spells like air bullets, gram demolition, Mist dispersal etc.



The CAD only reduces the psion consumption for creating activation sequences, the less psions are used the faster the activation sequence can be constructed. But the cad does not reduce the consumption of psions for the actual spell construction.



Psions are used intelligently its not like the high-level magicians just wastes them for no reason. How many times tatsuya used magic in a spam capacity? besides that 9SC gram demolition thing that not actually count as spamming.
Psion use lead to mental fatigue.
Remember the battle with the parasites in volume 11? at the end miyuki was very tired and barely being able to stand let alone walk(tatsuya was carrying her at that point ), all that after using her ZI at almost full strength and using the cocytus, even lina and tatsuya were tired. So yes they didn`t run out of psions but the use of magic took a big toll on their minds and its also statted if you overextend yopurself using magic can have a lot worse consequences like reducing the life spam of an individual, creating physical problems etc. Miya, Honami they both overused their magics and they ended up either directly dead or they only lived for a short while after.

Actually if you read volume 3 when tatsuya help mayumi in her match she still in good health/balance mentality due removing some garbage/excess in program/shorten activation sequence and compacting all in them small activation system, example of this is flying type magic that tatsuya discover and lessen the mental fantique in vol 3 of course,

So make it simplier explanation without the tech that tatsuya invented they can't spam magic due to mental fatique and mana consumption

I guess if will depend on mana reserves or if you high lvl spell whole day it can cause mental fatique to the user if the said user push it to the limit with loopcast cad & shoten mana consumption ._. I'm sorry if its so confusing

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by kusabireika

Actually if you read volume 3 when tatsuya help mayumi in her match she still in good health/balance mentality due removing some garbage/excess in program/shorten activation sequence and compacting all in them small activation system, example of this is flying type magic that tatsuya discover and lessen the mental fantique in vol 3 of course,

So make it simplier explanation without the tech that tatsuya invented they can't spam magic due to mental fatique and mana consumption

I guess if will depend on mana reserves or if you high lvl spell whole day it can cause mental fatique to the user if the said user push it to the limit with loopcast cad & shoten mana consumption ._. I'm sorry if its so confusing

Its not confusing, i said the use of magic will cause mental fatigue that will lead to exhaustion both physically and mentally.
And how fast you get exhausted from magic use depends how high the psion reserves of the magician is.
Remember in volume 4 the Mirage Bat finals when every participant used flying magic, after some times participants started to land because of the fail safe in the flying type CAD that will terminate the spell in case the users psion reserves would drop under a certain level, this fail safe was put in the CAD to prevent overuse of magic that can lead to physical damage and mental damage. At the end only miyuki was left flying because she has an insane amount of psions.

Another example is when tatsuya and miyuki go to the FLT 3rd divison with the flight type magic CAD, and Ushiyama ask's him if that is flight type magic and if it works, and tasuya said it needs to be tested because he an miyuki are not what people will call normal magicians, that statement was about them having a insane amount psions and the technology needed to be tested to see how the flight type magic will work for your average magician with a lot lower psion count.

[kusabireika]

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

Its not confusing, i said the use of magic will cause mental fatigue that will lead to exhaustion both physically and mentally.
And how fast you get exhausted from magic use depends how high the psion reserves of the magician is.
Remember in volume 4 the Mirage Bat finals when every participant used flying magic, after some times participants started to land because of the fail safe in the flying type CAD that will terminate the spell in case the users psion reserves would drop under a certain level, this fail safe was put in the CAD to prevent overuse of magic that can lead to physical damage and mental damage. At the end only miyuki was left flying because she has an insane amount of psions.

Another example is when tatsuya and miyuki go to the FLT 3rd divison with the flight type magic CAD, and Ushiyama ask's him if that is flight type magic and if it works, and tasuya said it needs to be tested because he an miyuki are not what people will call normal magicians, that statement was about them having a insane amount psions and the technology needed to be tested to see how the flight type magic will work for your average magician with a lot lower psion count.

Just found this on vol 4 I think

Likewise, the less Activation Sequences that needed to be processed, the less strain was placed on the player as well.

So the lesser the activation the lesser the mind strain of the said caster

Still your right ._. If the said caster keep spamming magic it might cause mental exhaustion still thx to tatsuya it lessen the strain quite a bit

[BW95]

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

Its not confusing, i said the use of magic will cause mental fatigue that will lead to exhaustion both physically and mentally.
And how fast you get exhausted from magic use depends how high the psion reserves of the magician is.
Remember in volume 4 the Mirage Bat finals when every participant used flying magic, after some times participants started to land because of the fail safe in the flying type CAD that will terminate the spell in case the users psion reserves would drop under a certain level, this fail safe was put in the CAD to prevent overuse of magic that can lead to physical damage and mental damage. At the end only miyuki was left flying because she has an insane amount of psions.

Another example is when tatsuya and miyuki go to the FLT 3rd divison with the flight type magic CAD, and Ushiyama ask's him if that is flight type magic and if it works, and tasuya said it needs to be tested because he an miyuki are not what people will call normal magicians, that statement was about them having a insane amount psions and the technology needed to be tested to see how the flight type magic will work for your average magician with a lot lower psion count.

Magic is a mental activity. So using it will naturally exhaust the wielder. It's not just psion use, though. In Genzou's case, there's a natural limit on how many times magic can be used within an interval regardless of whether you have the psions or not.

[Diocar]

Hey i was reading the 9sc manga yesterday and now remembered one thing.
In the previous chapter tats says he now has a AoE decomposition. So thanks to the manga i start thinking is it because of the flying magic technology? I mean acording to the manga tats flying magic makes changes to the activation sequence used for a spell allowing magic to casted continuously upon a target. Then for tats to have an area where any object is decomposed he has to do the same thing but applied to decomposition because the activation sequence used to decompose a person or a car must be diferent because their information structure is diferent. Is this right?

[kusabireika]

Originally Posted by BW95

Magic is a mental activity. So using it will naturally exhaust the wielder. It's not just psion use, though. In Genzou's case, there's a natural limit on how many times magic can be used within an interval regardless of whether you have the psions or not.

So you think tatsuya or miyuki will die because of mental exhaustion just what happen to Miya and Genzou

[BW95]

Originally Posted by Diocar

Hey i was reading the 9sc manga yesterday and now remembered one thing.
In the previous chapter tats says he now has a AoE decomposition. So thanks to the manga i start thinking is it because of the flying magic technology? I mean acording to the manga tats flying magic makes changes to the activation sequence used for a spell allowing magic to casted continuously upon a target. Then for tats to have an area where any object is decomposed he has to do the same thing but applied to decomposition because the activation sequence used to decompose a person or a car must be diferent because their information structure is diferent. Is this right?

An AoE spell doesn't individually target every object within an area. It would just be one spell and Loop Cast is about casting multiple spells.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Diocar

Hey i was reading the 9sc manga yesterday and now remembered one thing.
In the previous chapter tats says he now has a AoE decomposition. So thanks to the manga i start thinking is it because of the flying magic technology? I mean acording to the manga tats flying magic makes changes to the activation sequence used for a spell allowing magic to casted continuously upon a target. Then for tats to have an area where any object is decomposed he has to do the same thing but applied to decomposition because the activation sequence used to decompose a person or a car must be diferent because their information structure is diferent. Is this right?

Why would the activation sequence be different if all he is doing is plugging in different variables for the targets?

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by Diocar

Hey i was reading the 9sc manga yesterday and now remembered one thing.
In the previous chapter tats says he now has a AoE decomposition. So thanks to the manga i start thinking is it because of the flying magic technology? I mean acording to the manga tats flying magic makes changes to the activation sequence used for a spell allowing magic to casted continuously upon a target. Then for tats to have an area where any object is decomposed he has to do the same thing but applied to decomposition because the activation sequence used to decompose a person or a car must be diferent because their information structure is diferent. Is this right?

Aoe decomposition is a spell he has that acts like a defensive spell, similar with wide area interference or data fortification.
Was first mentioned in LN in volume 12 ch 1 when it was said he used this to defend against magic and bullets,cannon shells etc during the battle of okinawa.I wish the author will mention more about this spell on how it works and what exactly is used for.
He had aoe decomposition before the flight type magic and flight tyope magic has nothing to do with decomposition.

Thats the thing with tats, because his ability to use multivariables to a high degree it allows him to incorporate more variable into an activation sequence, meaning he can make the aoe decomposition affect more then just one type of target at the same time.
The only problem i see with aoe decomposition its not as universal as ZI or DF. I mean ZI just throws interference around preventing the enemy spell to have an effect in the ZI area of effect no matter which spell is used same as for DF that fortifies the eidos to prevent changes created by the spells or other forces.

Now in case of AoE decomposition i don`t see it very versatile against spells since you need to target the specific magic sequence of the spell to dispel it and i don`t see the Aoe decomp incorporating all the spells as target in order to block them, just to many spells.
I think he uses the aoe more to compliment his Gram Dispersion spell. We know that gram dispersion is very effective at dispelling magic but when the magic is dispelled the natural effects that the spell produces are not gone with the spell.

As an example he can dispel miyuki neilfheim but the freezing effect will remain until it corrects itself, freezing effect which is caused by slowing down the movement of air molecules in the target area and the reduced movement creates less friction between the molecules resulting in a temperature drop thus creating the freezing effect(maxwell and boltzman theory).
In other words if miyukis spell is dispelled the cold air front generated by the spell will still be there and will still have an effect if it touches you, and this is where aoe decomposition kicks in by decomposing the molecules that form the clod air will remove the cold air front resulting in a diminished or no effect at all.
At least that is my theory

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

Aoe decomposition is a spell he has that acts like a defensive spell, similar with wide area interference or data fortification.
Was first mentioned in LN in volume 12 ch 1 when it was said he used this to defend against magic and bullets,cannon shells etc during the battle of okinawa.I wish the author will mention more about this spell on how it works and what exactly is used for.

Honami died because he couldn't use AOE decomposition to protect himself and needed her.

That's why he called himself powerless at that time.

He only learned AOE decomposition after okinawa invasion

[kusabireika]

^ and the start of hidden ace sc magician of the yotsuba clan

[Diocar]

@ BW95
Well first the loop cast sistem is used to cast the same spell faster by copying part of the activation sequence into the magician. Second i don't know how you have a decomposition AoE magic that doesn t target objects in the area (in the context of defending against bullets and missils as tats said).

@ IceHism
I don t know what is the diference in the spell to decompose when he decomposes diferent materials. I just read the mangas recently and as when he ko's hattori they say he couldn t have used loop cast to create the compound waves because he needed to use the spell with diferent activation sequences unless he did something even more complex (wich he did) i kind of thought diferent materials equals slighty dif activation sequences.

@SoboSobo
The monologue is about the AoE being something new that If he had it in the past the guardian wouldn t have to have died protecting him from bullets.
And i didn t say that the flying magic was related to decomposition. I said that if the technology used for flying magic was used for decomposition could it be responsible for the AoE. Wich timewise kind of makes sense, and since he used the flying magic principle in the experiment of vol 12 it makes sense he also incorporates it in his magic somehow.
And although lots of ppl at the time didn t agree with me i don t see the dif between a MD and gram dispersion AoE, it is just decomposing the connections between atoms or psions ( he even has to translate phisical bodies into information before decomposing them, wich isn t necessary with the psions).
And finally you can t stop cold or heat with decomposition. Cold and heat is associated with the internal velocity of the atoms, he can t destroy atoms so he can t stop the cold or heat.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Diocar

@ IceHism
I don t know what is the diference in the spell to decompose when he decomposes diferent materials. I just read the mangas recently and as when he ko's hattori they say he couldn t have used loop cast to create the compound waves because he needed to use the spell with diferent activation sequences unless he did something even more complex (wich he did) i kind of thought diferent materials equals slighty dif activation sequences.

Tatsuya used the loop cast system in that scene and indeed used the same spell 3 times. The student council did not believe that they were the same spell because he had to deal with 3 variables already (Target, strength, time of duration) and did not think he could do 4 variables. In reality, Tatsuya used 4 variables (adding number of vibrations) so he could cast the same activation sequence. The difference between the waves was just choosing different variables which doesn't affect the whole activation sequence unlike if it was 3 and # of vibrations was a constant.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Guest2: Sure, it's not a video game, but it simulates the slow natural recovery rate of the human body. That's the reason why we can't do a lot of things at the same time without getting tired. All this technology catering the efficiency of psion usage seemed excessively convenient, and I personally wanted psions to be used intelligently even by high-level characters.

When I said it wasn't a video game, I meant that mages are not out in a field or dungeon hunting monsters for hours and days and then have to return home every now and then to rest and replenish their lost hp and mp without using items.

Being a magic technician is a job like any other. They go to work everyday, have breaks like any job, stop or get scolded if they are careless and do too much, and go back home to rest. If you read the novel, you know that magicians get exhausted like in any other activity, especially so with sustained magics.

And technology is all about making labour excessively convenient for the masses. Its the difference between living in the medieval ages and the present. It should make perfect sense for it to be the same for magic technology.

Also the novel elaborately covers psion limits of magicians and techniques used to prevent exhaustion in V3c2. But anytime we refer the relevant sections, you seem to have trouble reading it.

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

The CAD only reduces the psion consumption for creating activation sequences, the less psions are used the faster the activation sequence can be constructed. But the cad does not reduce the consumption of psions for the actual spell construction.

I said advanced technology, this includes advanced techniques, advanced software, improvements in activation sequences and improved CADs. And in V3c2, it does confirm that these combined technologies reduce the consumption of psions for the actual spell construction, which includes the construction of the activation sequence - the main part of the spell.

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

Aoe decomposition is a spell he has that acts like a defensive spell, similar with wide area interference or data fortification.
Was first mentioned in LN in volume 12 ch 1 when it was said he used this to defend against magic and bullets,cannon shells etc during the battle of okinawa.I wish the author will mention more about this spell on how it works and what exactly is used for.......

You are a bit mistaken here. Firstly, Tatsuya explained in V12c1 he did not know how to use AOE defensive decomposition yet 3 years before in Okinawa. This was the reason stated in V8c16 why Honami went to help him. Because she noticed he had to individually identify each attacking object first and was pushed to his limits just disabling the enemy attacks.

Secondly, he was referring to protecting himself from the naval bombardment that Honami protected him from. It is not similar to wide area interference or data fortification. Barrier-type magic would be what it would be like, similar to the Speed type magic that was used by 9th High in V4c13. Instead of reducing speed, Mist Dispersion would take effect.

Spoiler for Quote:

At the current rate, their inability to retaliate would lead to their demise, so one of the players from Ninth High spread out a magical protective barrier over their heads to protect them — an imaginary obstruction that would reduce the speed of the descending particles to zero.

Thirdly, we have seen Tatsuya already uses 2 versions of small AOE Decomposition for offense. The first is a pinhole sized, linear-version of AOE Mist Dispersion seen first in v2 and the 2nd is a Mist Dispersion coating on his hands to give them a magical 'knife edge'.

Originally Posted by Diocar

@ IceHism
I don t know what is the diference in the spell to decompose when he decomposes diferent materials. I just read the mangas recently and as when he ko's hattori they say he couldn t have used loop cast to create the compound waves because he needed to use the spell with diferent activation sequences unless he did something even more complex (wich he did) i kind of thought diferent materials equals slighty dif activation sequences.

He did use loop cast to create the basic spell for each wave, He only had to pull the trigger once to create one loop-able activation sequence, then he inputs each separate set of variables for each single wave in his mind which subconsciously produces the final triple compound psion spell.

Originally Posted by Diocar

@SoboSobo
Cold and heat is associated with the internal velocity of the atoms, he can t destroy atoms so he can t stop the cold or heat.

Tatsuya decomposes structures to their base element ions, molecules or atoms. Actual destruction of an atom or further decomposition leads to a nuclear-like explosion I believe.

[Diocar]

Originally Posted by IceHism

Tatsuya used the loop cast system in that scene and indeed used the same spell 3 times. The student council did not believe that they were the same spell because he had to deal with 3 variables already (Target, strength, time of duration) and did not think he could do 4 variables. In reality, Tatsuya used 4 variables (adding number of vibrations) so he could cast the same activation sequence. The difference between the waves was just choosing different variables which doesn't affect the whole activation sequence unlike if it was 3 and # of vibrations was a constant.

I just meant that the ppl in the student council at first thought he used diferent activations sequences for casting basically the same spell 3 times with litle diferences, so it wouldn t be absurd that MD has diferent activation sequences depending on minor things...

[Diocar]

Originally Posted by Guest2

Tatsuya decomposes structures to their base element ions, molecules or atoms. Actual destruction of an atom or further decomposition leads to a nuclear-like explosion I believe.

It is a lot more complicated than that... For ex fossils are dated based on radioactive decai and you don t think dinossaur bones are potencial nuclear bombs do you?
But regarding cold and heat, as long as the atoms exist the cold and heat also exists.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Diocar

I just meant that the ppl in the student council at first thought he used diferent activations sequences for casting basically the same spell 3 times with litle diferences, so it wouldn t be absurd that MD has diferent activation sequences depending on minor things...

We don't know what in Mist dispersal's sequence is actually set as a constant or variable. But i see no reason why most of it is not mostly variables. Tatsuya has the mental power to calculate all of it so there should be no problems and more variables allow for a far more refined control on his spells. Remember, Tatsuya is all about efficiency hence why Miyuki hates the school CADs with a passion.


@Guest2
Which spell do you believe is more potent? The trident or mist dispersal? It seems like mist dispersal is used for mostly incapacitation (like when he shot the little pinhole things into the blanche members or into Lina) and trident seems to make the whole body decompose (yokohama/okinawa/no head dragon)

[Diocar]

Originally Posted by IceHism

Which spell do you believe is more potent? The trident or mist dispersal? It seems like mist dispersal is used for mostly incapacitation (like when he shot the little pinhole things into the blanche members or into Lina) and trident seems to make the whole body decompose (yokohama/okinawa/no head dragon)

Trident is a cad and a 3 spell combination wich the last spell is normally MD.
You confusing MD with decomposing only a small part of the information body, wich i think also as a name but i don t remember.