Beelzebub

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Beelzebub is popular because it's one of the better shounen mangas out there right now, which may not say much. But comparing it's popularity to KKOW is ridiculous because one came out in the 80s and has been done with for years.

I kind of meant popularity in terms of perceived quality really, Not in terms of sales or anything.

Originally Posted by Vampire

Is it just me or does anyone feel extremely bored with the fights? Beelzebub was suppose to be comedy focused, but now that they're a battle manga, it doesn't bring anything new on the table and being quite bland as an artwork as well as low creativity that doesn't exceed nothing other than a delinquent fight. I'm disappointed on it's progress and hoping it'll bring out something fresh and amazing. Flinging punches at one another isn't impressing anyone since we've seen it done multiple times in other mangas at a very common standard.

Someone who gets it.

Originally Posted by LeaD36

You just hype KKOW too much.

That's right, I tend to hype quality manga and criticize manga which i deem lacking in comparison. If my comments leads to more people reading KKOW, that's just an added bonus.

Originally Posted by LeaD36

Was there ever any shonen lead as awesome as Oga "what can we do to apologize?" (Oga 13 y/o) "Bow to me"

I'd argue that Oga is based off a lot of shounen heroes, Mitsuhashi from KKOW included.

Originally Posted by LeaD36

and who cares if the plots are cliché? they way the author presents them are friggin hilarious

Look i'll agree that being cliche up to an extent is acceptable for shounen. But the presentation for beelzebub is a hit-and-miss at a lot of times. It falls back too much on recycling, a lot more than other mangas, And when you recycle too much the manga loses its "soul"

Originally Posted by LeaD36

oh and the trip to the demon world? Where is that comparable to any mainstream shonen plot? that was just so messed up, esp giant Baby Beel vs that monster thingy xD

I said before that the arc was interesting but it quickly regressed back to the new school+ mode.

Originally Posted by LeaD36

oh and a big con for KKoW - the art is incredibly bad.

I'd argue that the art style allows for a lot of facial expressions which increase the comedic value of the manga. But at the end of the day it all comes down to personal preference, I firmly believe that most people who give the manga a chance will overlook the art to truly enjoy it.

Also i hardly think the art for beelzebub is much better to be honest, The 3-4 ways in which the eyes are drawn commonly for the characters is quite irksome.

Originally Posted by LeaD36

Angel Densetsu was way better imo, that even had a plot for some time.

Angel Densetsu had a great start though it slowly deteriorated as it went on. I have yet to see such a dip in quality from KKOW over the same number of chapters.

Originally Posted by LeaD36

And beelzebub likely has some of the most awesome characters out of the ongoing manga nowadays!

I mean : Oga?! AOI <3????? Hilda!!! Furuichi (nah, he´s just here for the lolz) etc. etc.

And some of the most mundane, overused character stereotypes in shounen. But i guess the harem element adds to the appeal.


I don't see you or anyone else refuting any of the major points i made.

If someone were to actually read the current entirety of both manga's and present me with arguments as to why they believe beelzebub is better than KKOW I'd eagerly read and respond.

[Johnny]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

If someone were to actually read the current entirety of both manga's and present me with arguments as to why they believe beelzebub is better than KKOW I'd eagerly read and respond.

I really dislike KKOW and I like Beelzebub. I feel no need to create a wall of text to point that out. Isn't that enough? If you like it read it and if you don't then don't read it. Although it's laughable to say that KKOW's art is better...

[Cinocard]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

You guys need more diversification in your entertainment if you seriously believe that. Maybe try reading some "good" books.

By cliche I mean everything, and yes, mostly everything. Tell me theme parks and water parks are not cliche as hell, let alone movies and cheap novels.

I do find new enjoyment in every sophisticated books I read, but it's not really appropriate to list them as "entertainment."

So "I'm going to protect this baby no matter what" counts as 50 times more character development than accepting someone for who they are despite differences, Gotcha.

However you phrase it, man. "Accepting someone for who they are despite differences" to me is quite the same to "Coming to term from rivalry and misunderstanding with someone to supporting and loving that person in secret." Who? Aoi and Oga.

You like the character, the slightest change in them can satisfy you, sure. But I wouldn't call either of them "development."

[evil|plushie]

In all honesty, it feels like Poetic Justice's wall of text can be condensed into 'Hey, beelzebub sucks. KKOW is much better. You should all read it'. In the end it's all subjective though.

Plus, let's just wait to see how Beelzebub turns out. It's only 4 volumes in and KKOW didn't really get interesting for me until the last few volumes for the english scanslation.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Sinta

I think this may be about the most insightful i think I've ever heard you say Hayashi. I agree 100%; History's Strongest Kenchi is one of the simplest most clinche plots on the planet. "I'm a weak boy I want to get stronger" but because the Art is decent and the Characters are fun its a cool story. Some originality is desired but not even the most important thing any more for the simple fact that its just so hard to be original.

Oh please, you makin me blush lol

[Kafriel]

Although it's laughable to say that KKOW's art is better...

It was only said that...

most people who give the manga a chance will overlook the art to truly enjoy it.

which is exactly the opposite of what you stated. I agree that art is not everything in a manga, there are many old school ones that despite having inferior art, are a lot better than other manga, even if they include cliche situations, because the execution differs.

It's only 4 volumes in

I've had many laughs reading those 4 volumes, but I have to admit that the story hasn't progressed at all, which is kinda bad...although as I've said before, I read BB for the lols, not for the plot.

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by Johnny

I really dislike KKOW and I like Beelzebub. I feel no need to create a wall of text to point that out. Isn't that enough? If you like it read it and if you don't then don't read it.

Sure, You're entitled your opinion and certainly don't have to justify anything. You also don't have to post if you dont have anything worthwhile to add to the conversation.

Originally Posted by Johnny

Although it's laughable to say that KKOW's art is better...

Putting words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by Cinocard

By cliche I mean everything, and yes, mostly everything. Tell me theme parks and water parks are not cliche as hell, let alone movies and cheap novels.

Theme parks and water parks? That was quite random dude. I haven't been to that many in my life so i can't offer a comparative analysis.

Originally Posted by Cinocard

However you phrase it, man. "Accepting someone for who they are despite differences" to me is quite the same to "Coming to term from rivalry and misunderstanding with someone to supporting and loving that person in secret." Who? Aoi and Oga.

I kind of agree with you but the latter has been done to death before in manga and thus the impact is lessened to a higher degree.

Originally Posted by Cinocard

You like the character, the slightest change in them can satisfy you, sure. But I wouldn't call either of them "development."

Then what is "development"? i'd certainly like to hear your view on it.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

In all honesty, it feels like Poetic Justice's wall of text can be condensed into 'Hey, beelzebub sucks. KKOW is much better. You should all read it'.

My "wall of text" is primarily intended to stimulate a comparative discussion between the two manga's, Anything else is a side-effect.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

In the end it's all subjective though.

Yes and I'd like to debate upon these subjective opinions.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Plus, let's just wait to see how Beelzebub turns out. It's only 4 volumes in and KKOW didn't really get interesting for me until the last few volumes for the english scanslation.

Well I'll disagree with you there, The manga instantly got "classic" status in my book about 10-12 chapters in.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

I've had many laughs reading those 4 volumes, but I have to admit that the story hasn't progressed at all, which is kinda bad...although as I've said before, I read BB for the lols, not for the plot.

Which brings me to my last point that since the plot is almost non-existent in both, KKOW is also better because it offers more lols than beelzebub.

[Johnny]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

Sure, You're entitled your opinion and certainly don't have to justify anything. You also don't have to post if you dont have anything worthwhile to add to the conversation.

For a second there I thought this was the thread for Medaka box...

As to what to what you think it worthwhile, well that's your own opinion as well. All I have to say is I enjoy this manga and it's enough isn't it, God...?

[SageGaiGar]

I fail to see where this is going. This isn't a KKOW discussion thread mate.

Beelzebub is stupid fun.

It has dragged slightly in the last couple chapters.

There, several pages condensed into a post.

So it looks like we might get into the hero finally faces a challenge cliche. Or Oga pulls out the overpowered card again.

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by Johnny

For a second there I thought this was the thread for Medaka box...

As to what to what you think it worthwhile, well that's your own opinion as well. All I have to say is I enjoy this manga and it's enough isn't it, God...?

Don't listen to him Jonny, all posts matter. Even yours.

What I realy want to see after this arc, dispite it being as cliche as hell, is more demon contractors. Its coming to a point that the only opponants strong enough to face Oga, (depending on Miki) are thse who use a demon power up.

[Izayoi]

Originally Posted by SageGaiGar

So it looks like we might get into the hero finally faces a challenge cliche. Or Oga pulls out the overpowered card again.

I say he pulls out the overpowered card, story conflict is stupid. I dislike the "Oh noes gonna lose, POWER UP, WAHAHAHA YOU LOSEEEE" kind of plot. The plot where it is was like "WAHAHAHA YOU LOSEEEEE" is clearly superior. If there is gonna be some sort of power up, at least give it a good reason... Who knows, just my opinion.

I don't see why the mods haven't taken care of this wall of flame and out of topic. I myself have actually never read KKOW for its art, I think I will give it a try.

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by SageGaiGar

I fail to see where this is going. This isn't a KKOW discussion thread mate.

Originally Posted by Izayoi

I don't see why the mods haven't taken care of this wall of flame and out of topic.

So i can't make comparisons on the quality of two similarly themed manga on the count of being off topic?

If the mods deem it so then they will infract me and i will cease this discussion, But the fact that they haven't so far might provide a clue. The rest can keep giving me negative reps to take out their pent up aggressions and provide me with laughter at the same time.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

So i can't make comparisons on the quality of two similarly themed manga on the count of being off topic?

If the mods deem it so then they will infract me and i will cease this discussion, But the fact that they haven't so far might provide a clue. The rest can keep giving me negative reps to take out their pent up aggressions and provide me with laughter at the same time.

Just because they're both about delinquents doesn't mean their the same. It's like saying La Blue Girl should be compared to Naruto

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

Yes and I'd like to debate upon these subjective opinions.

Why bother? It's all subjective. It's like trying to argue about whether superman can beat goku or whether gundam 00 can beat gundam wing. It's not going to yield any productive results.

Well I'll disagree with you there, The manga instantly got "classic" status in my book about 10-12 chapters in.

See? That's again the same subjective opinion that's useless in any logical argument. It's a valid opinion but does it add any value to any argument? No.

Which brings me to my last point that since the plot is almost non-existent in both, KKOW is also better because it offers more lols than beelzebub.

Again, LOLs is subjective.

So really, just enjoy KKOW or beelzebub. Whatever suits your manga needs.

[Cinocard]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

I kind of agree with you but the latter has been done to death before in manga and thus the impact is lessened to a higher degree.

Then what is "development"? i'd certainly like to hear your view on it.

An old man on the street suddenly dies of heart attack. What a development for the old man. But who really care for the random old man on the street? As I have said, if you care for the character enough, even a slight change in them you would catch on and be satisfied. That's the point. You must have enough interest in the character.

Of course, fictional characters are ALWAYS designed to catch your interest, be they the hero or antagonist (and guess what, the cliches are cliche, because they are what work best). But what is decisive in actually making the characters function as they were designed to? The actual execution.

I'm not saying the executions of the development itself isn't important. They are very important, and as the more skillful a mangaka, the more subtle are frequent those developments can be seen. People who read works of mangakas such as Adachi know what I'm talking about.

[SageGaiGar]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

So i can't make comparisons on the quality of two similarly themed manga on the count of being off topic?

If the mods deem it so then they will infract me and i will cease this discussion, But the fact that they haven't so far might provide a clue. The rest can keep giving me negative reps to take out their pent up aggressions and provide me with laughter at the same time.

You can offer suggestions but all I've noticed is you making a one sided argument in favor of KKOW.

To your credit, I started reading a couple chapters. I fail to see the comparison of one battle/gag manga (Beelzebub) to the comedy high school antics of KKOW. Shonen? yes. But comparable? Not really. Apples and oranges is more like it. I prefer the insanity so far of Beelzebub's better moments.

[Kinku]

I think Hareluya II Boy is probably a better comparison too Beelzebubb than KKOW

Beelzebub isnt really becoming Battle manga IMO.. i mean most the fights are not even serious and it takes at least one chapter or two. What i consider High school battle manga is probably Tenjou tenge or Veritas . Are the fights getting boring in Beelzebub? Maybe... I mean half the time Oga doesnt take it serious but thats what type of guy he is... he doesnt sweat the little stuff.. (thats from Kongoh Bancho another manga i think its kinda like Beelzebub)

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Kinku

I think Hareluya II Boy is probably a better comparison too Beelzebub than KKOW

I dunno about that. Hareluya himself doesn't get any character development. So far all the development has been the midget and the sullen lecher.

Beelzebub is more of a supernatural action comedy genre. If there's ever a comparison, it should fall under this category.

[Cinocard]

When there's such a big adventure/supernatural background in Beelzebub, any retro delinquent high school life manga is a bad comparison imho. Let them be comedic or serious, are nevertheless the yankee slice-of-life type.

Beelzebub does not describe Oga's everyday life and relationship.

[Poetic Justice]

They are absolutely comparable, Both have a primary focus in humor that has declined in one, Both have delinquent protagonists who have a similar personality. I'd go so far as to say that the super natural element in beelzebub doesn't even have that much of a major impact in the story. Cue Oga going to different schools and beating up 'normal' studentsl. Yes this may change in the future but I'm inclined to say that about the present.

This along with the fact that both include some of the same used plotlines i:e The protagonist meeting and fighting with the parent/guardian of the heroine.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

It's like saying La Blue Girl should be compared to Naruto

Nice exaggeration there buddy.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Why bother? It's all subjective. It's like trying to argue about whether superman can beat goku or whether gundam 00 can beat gundam wing. It's not going to yield any productive results.

So? It's an internet forum. All opinions are subjective, That doesn't mean we can't argue about them. What would be the point of a debate or argument if were just going to say "opinions are like assholes lulz" and drop it.

Originally Posted by SageGaiGar

You can offer suggestions but all I've noticed is you making a one sided argument in favor of KKOW.

I've made suggestions a lot of times, In both the current discussion and on previous occasions. It's just that i cite KKOW when it comes to how i think something is done in a better way and how it should be done.

Originally Posted by SageGaiGar

To your credit, I started reading a couple chapters. I fail to see the comparison of one battle/gag manga (Beelzebub) to the comedy high school antics of KKOW. Shonen? yes. But comparable? Not really. Apples and oranges is more like it.

That's very misleading, So KKOW isn't a battle/gag manga as well? What qualifies as a battle/gag manga in your opinion? And what qualifies as high school antics? All of the former elements are which present in both.

Originally Posted by Cinocard

An old man on the street suddenly dies of heart attack. What a development for the old man. But who really care for the random old man on the street? As I have said, if you care for the character enough, even a slight change in them you would catch on and be satisfied. That's the point. You must have enough interest in the character.

So what you're actually saying here is that development is basically perceived by the readers and it not actually may be development? Am i getting that right?

Originally Posted by Cinocard

When there's such a big adventure/supernatural background in Beelzebub, any retro delinquent high school life manga is a bad comparison imho. Let them be comedic or serious, are nevertheless the yankee slice-of-life type.

But when Beelzebub takes so much from the former and keeps the supernatural element minimal it absolutely deems a comparison.

Originally Posted by Cinocard

Beelzebub does not describe Oga's everyday life and relationship.

If you mean that since Oga's life is filled with the supernatural and is thus disqualified from the "everyday life and relationships" state I'd strongly disagree with you there. What qualifies as "everyday life and relationships" anyway? I'd say that most manga with a central protagonist are stories about "Everyday life and relationships" of that character be it a story set on mars or on earth.