[Manga] Chapter 505 Discussion

[Slayerx]

Hey anyone remember the part where minato took the time to leave a message for sarutobi and the village that he suspected that Madara was behind the attack and promised that he was going to destroy kohona? Cause I sure don't...

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Hey anyone remember the part where minato took the time to leave a message for sarutobi and the village that he suspected that Madara was behind the attack and promised that he was going to destroy kohona? Cause I sure don't...

Well, he did leave a message inside of Naruto, but you are mostly correct, in all the running around that he did, Minato could have easily stopped for a second and told someone that Madara was behind the attack, but, and this is probably the official excuse, he was pressed for time, so it was nigh impossible for him to leave any specific message (a written message could have been intercepted by Madara or Zetsu, and there was no time for a personal message).

[Slayerx]

^Actually, while he was telling kushina his plan to kill himself to seal the kyuubi, he could have spared a tiny bit of chakra to summon a small toad and passed on a message to him before he broke out the death god... the toad could de-summon right away to avoid being intercepted and pass on the message to Jiraiya... he might have also had some other options considering he can teleport...
As for the message inside Naruto... ya that took 15 years to trigger... not really all that useful considering all that could happen in that time


Though I think the biggest issue is probably the mere fact that he did not even entertain the thought...
kinda like in Bleach when Ichigo never bothers to think about what can happen in just one hour...

[james0246]

^Considering that Madara did nothing for 15 years that makes the message just as relevant .

Seriously though, the excuse still holds true: Minato had next to no chakra, everything he had was devoted to keeping up the barrier, sealing the Kyuubi and then setting up a message inside of Naruto as an afterthought. So, it seems a bit unreasonable to assume he could have summoned a toad to pass along the message...though he could have left a quick note with Gamabunta earlier (I do think it would have been cool if Kishimoto had shown such a note, but it either being destroyed accidentally by the Kyuubi, getting lost, or being intercepted by Madara).

[Slayerx]

^Well i was gonna say something about the chakra, but looking back on the chapter (in which i forgot that was LAST chapter not the most recent one thus this is actually offtopic...)
Minato DID summon a toad, namely the the one who carried the key to the kyuubi's seal... Minato could have given him a very quick "-and warn jiriaya about Madara"

[Mr. Johnny 5]

You know since the beginning of Naruto i felt like the village had something against the 4th. He was never named, never mentioned and no one spoke of him. Although only the 3rd looked at his picture with his deep thoughts smoking as always some weed.

I think Naruto once he returns to a rebuild Konoha should explain the village or well definetly atleast the top about what happend that day. It clears the hatred towards the Uchiha's...they were innocent at the time. And it would clear their names.
... Naruto should definetly start taking a jounin test.. it's about time he starts to learn the new generation.

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Considering that Madara did nothing for 15 years that makes the message just as relevant .

Seriously though, the excuse still holds true: Minato had next to no chakra, everything he had was devoted to keeping up the barrier, sealing the Kyuubi and then setting up a message inside of Naruto as an afterthought. So, it seems a bit unreasonable to assume he could have summoned a toad to pass along the message...though he could have left a quick note with Gamabunta earlier (I do think it would have been cool if Kishimoto had shown such a note, but it either being destroyed accidentally by the Kyuubi, getting lost, or being intercepted by Madara).

Or he could have left the message with Gerotora, the toad already was to be stored within Jiraiya so only he could have know about it, and I doubt Madara would risk atacking him to intercept/take the message.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

You know since the beginning of Naruto i felt like the village had something against the 4th. He was never named, never mentioned and no one spoke of him. Although only the 3rd looked at his picture with his deep thoughts smoking as always some weed.

He's brought up a few times. Iruka mentions him in the first chapter as the hero who saved the village. When Oro's learned to be planning an attack against Konoha Anko says that she wishes the 4th were still alive to help the village. And Jiraiya has discussion with Tsunade about Minato's talent as a pupil.

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Or he could have left the message with Gerotora, the toad already was to be stored within Jiraiya so only he could have know about it, and I doubt Madara would risk atacking him to intercept/take the message.

Yeah, Itachi could've also warned the village about Madara and it was also pointed out as strange (or sloppy writing, as the case may be) that he didn't. Frankly, it's just really weird why Itachi felt he had no choice but to murder his family when he could've potentially prevented the whole thing by exposing the real threat.

In Minato's case, the circumstances make it a bit more believable. He never really got confirmation that it was actually Madara he fought. Plus, he had no idea of Madara's whereabouts or how to find him. He could've maybe explained the fact that he believed Madara was behind the attack and maybe something about his weird abilities. But against someone who can slip through walls and literally appear wherever and whenever he wants, that's scant info.

The big difference w/ Konoha knowing Madara still alive is that the Uchiha possibly wouldn't have been segregated and the events leading up to the massacre might've not happened. But I say "might not" because it could be that knowing Madara was involved would've only fueled the suspicion about the Uchiha clan. Madara is an Uchiha afterall.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

I think Naruto once he returns to a rebuild Konoha should explain the village or well definetly atleast the top about what happend that day. It clears the hatred towards the Uchiha's...they were innocent at the time. And it would clear their names.
... Naruto should definetly start taking a jounin test.. it's about time he starts to learn the new generation.

If i recall, the rest of the village didn't even know about the suspicions that the uchiha were under... it was all kept secret. The only ones that would care about the info are the two elders and any Anbu that were involved in keeping an eye on the uchiha back then... kinda moot to remove such suspicions postmortem when only a few people actually thought that might be the case... All it really does is add one more reason to stop madara

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Yeah, Itachi could've also warned the village about Madara and it was also pointed out as strange (or sloppy writing, as the case may be) that he didn't. Frankly, it's just really weird why Itachi felt he had no choice but to murder his family when he could've potentially prevented the whole thing by exposing the real threat.

Now that's something i haven't been sure about... Danzo apparently knew Madara was involved but could never be sure about Sarutobi. But if he knew than i would think jiriaya would know and jiraiya should have mentioned he knew madara was still alive. It does feel sloppy if Itachi never told sarutobi about madara

Could this have stopped the slaughter... maybe
One problem is that even if they have a real suspect it does not change the damage kohona did to the uchiha... trust is broken and the whole clan insulted; a simple "we're sorry" may not have been enough to appease them and stop them.
Though on the other hand, the discovery of madara and the fact that he still wanted revenge on BOTH the uchiha and kohona could have provided the two sides with a mutual threat strong enough for them to put differences aside to deal with madara first

In Minato's case, the circumstances make it a bit more believable. He never really got confirmation that it was actually Madara he fought. Plus, he had no idea of Madara's whereabouts or how to find him. He could've maybe explained the fact that he believed Madara was behind the attack and maybe something about his weird abilities. But against someone who can slip through walls and literally appear wherever and whenever he wants, that's scant info.

Hell considering how kohona was able to make use of "the real one isn't there" to help them beat Pain, ANY information would have been more useful than nothing. Knowing that madara MIGHT be the culprit alone atleast tells them they'll need to work with the uchiha to help deal with him, that they will be a vital part of stopping him... in the years after the attack they could have figured out how Madara's techniquies work based on research on the sharigan, or found ways to counter it... anything would be better than nothing, as nothing leaves them completely unprepared

not to mention that Kohona could have potentially discovered akatsuki (madara's allies) earlier and could have put huge dents into their plans.

The big difference w/ Konoha knowing Madara still alive is that the Uchiha possibly wouldn't have been segregated and the events leading up to the massacre might've not happened. But I say "might not" because it could be that knowing Madara was involved would've only fueled the suspicion about the Uchiha clan. Madara is an Uchiha afterall.

Not so sure about that... afterall, Madara and the uchiha stopped seeing eye to eye a LONG time ago. I mean that would like suspecting any remnants of oro's family of being part of oro's evil plans.
Part of the reason they suspected the uchiha was because they thought this might have been a NEW uchiha stirring up trouble

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

In Minato's case, the circumstances make it a bit more believable. He never really got confirmation that it was actually Madara he fought. Plus, he had no idea of Madara's whereabouts or how to find him. He could've maybe explained the fact that he believed Madara was behind the attack and maybe something about his weird abilities. But against someone who can slip through walls and literally appear wherever and whenever he wants, that's scant info.

At least he could have told Geratora that someone is controling the Kyuubi. With this info Jiraiya would have put the pieces together and found out that it was probably Madara behind the atack (like he did later before the fight with Pain, during the talk with Geratora).

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

At least he could have told Geratora that someone is controling the Kyuubi. With this info Jiraiya would have put the pieces together and found out that it was probably Madara behind the atack (like he did later before the fight with Pain, during the talk with Geratora).

Like you said Jiraiya suspected it. How does that help Jiraiya find Madara or fight him?

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Hell considering how kohona was able to make use of "the real one isn't there" to help them beat Pain, ANY information would have been more useful than nothing.

Well, Jiraiya knew that bit of info was the key and the only chance of defeating Pein which is why he extended his fight to confirm it even at the cost of his own life. Telling Konoha about how Pein could absorb ninjutsu, repel attacks and revive himself would've done nothing for them except maybe put off death a little longer.

Not saying the info about Madara couldn't have been useful, but Jiraiya fought Pein long enough to figure out the only way to defeat him. Minato only saw a few of Madara's tricks.

in the years after the attack they could have figured out how Madara's techniquies work based on research on the sharigan, or found ways to counter it... anything would be better than nothing, as nothing leaves them completely unprepared

not to mention that Kohona could have potentially discovered akatsuki (madara's allies) earlier and could have put huge dents into their plans.

Would they? Konoha were basically sitting ducks against Oro, a ninja known for a fact to be alive and dangerous for years. He managed to raise a hidden village, form secret alliance with Suna and infiltrate their chuunin tournament right under Konoha's nose even though Jiraiya had been trailing him for some time. And there was nothing Konoha could do to prepare for it (barring a few ANBU sprinkled in the crowd).

Even if Konoha knew Madara existed, it's likely he could've evaded them just as easily, especially with his abilites, and formed Akatsuki.

The key thing to remember is Minato put his faith into Naruto to deal with Madara and protect the village. To him, the best preparation for the village was to make sure Naruto had the means to deal with him when the time came. He put all his efforts into ensuring that,

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Like you said Jiraiya suspected it. How does that help Jiraiya find Madara or fight him?

I am not saying Jiraya had to fight him. What I am saying is that if Minato told the toad that some masked man was able to control kyuubi, Jiraiya would have come to the same conclusion years earlier. When he heard of Akatsuki capturing tailed beasts he would have known it was probably Madara behind it. This revelation would have probably stoped him from going after Pain (who he considered to be the real Akatsuki leader) and he would have survived. He could have warned Naruto and helped him more. Naruto could have mastered the kyuubi much earlier and probably save more jinchuurikis and other felow ninjas from dieing.

One thing that bugs me, when Minato used the death seal he was almost out of chakra (when Sarutobi used it, it was shown that user needs chakra/energy left enough to pull out the soul). Yet Minato even with low chakra was able to seal kyuubi in death god, even if he had some chakra left for this how did he find more to seal kyuubi inside of Naruto and even leave some chakra behind in seal?

[Ashaman]

I don't think he was that low. Prob just momentarily winded.

Besides, there is one flaw in your argument. I'm pretty sure the trouble Saru had with Oro is more to do with the sword in his back than chakra.

If I recall, Saru was sucking soul before getting stabbed slowed him down.

Why would Jiraiya have come to the conclusion i was Madara behind the tailed beast captures exactly?

Madara comes after the Kyuubi specifically, which makes sense considering they have a shared past.

It isn't logical to go from one to another, especially considering the time gap and the diff tactics.

He might have been suspicous, but any other info would trump it. Such as, you know, info that Pain is the leader like he recieved.

There was very little time around the sealing. The most he could have spared for the frog would be a quick warning that probably would have been nothing but confusing under time constraints.

Madara was behind the attack! - How confusing is that?

I'm willing to forgive him for being more focused on the Kyuubi and his son than anything else.

[andrew2614]

It seems that no one else has realized or even cares about this, but am I the only one bothered by the fact that Naruto spent all that time learning sage mode so that he could use it in only ONE fight against Pain? And then toss it aside for his new Kyuubi mode?

He was supposed to be a sage to eclipse Jiraiya and now he'll never use it again since his Kyuubi mode also gives him crazy amounts of strength, chakra, ability to sense chakra/ negative emotions, AND randomly able to use time/space jutsu better than his dad (since the 4th needed marked kunai and Naruto did it with nothing).

This basically makes his Sage mode obsolete after only ONE fight!! What gives?!

[james0246]

^Obviously, the ultimate form Naruto will soon attain will be a combination of Sage Mode and Kyuubi Mode (this was foreshadowed when Naruto faced Nagato briefly before the end of that story arc).

[Haak]

Originally Posted by andrew2614

AND randomly able to use time/space jutsu better than his dad (since the 4th needed marked kunai and Naruto did it with nothing).

Just so you know, that was a misstranslation. Naruto never teleported. He did a Shunsin which has often been confused for teleportation but is just super speed.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Could this have stopped the slaughter... maybe
One problem is that even if they have a real suspect it does not change the damage kohona did to the uchiha... trust is broken and the whole clan insulted; a simple "we're sorry" may not have been enough to appease them and stop them.
Though on the other hand, the discovery of madara and the fact that he still wanted revenge on BOTH the uchiha and kohona could have provided the two sides with a mutual threat strong enough for them to put differences aside to deal with madara first

Here is the assumption that Uchiha were not allies of Madara, or at least the secret organization of Uchiha led by Sasuke's father. However on the night of the kyuubi attack both father and mother are away. They had to do something so important that they left baby Sasuke to the care of the little child Itachi in the middle of the night. Also Kishimoto shows us Sasuke's mother meeting with Kushina, and thus she had information on Kushina. After she meets Kushina and the hokage's wife who are going outside the village she just disappears leaving Sasuke to his child's care in the middle of the night, what a coincidence that is.
So Kishimoto has placed clear signs that something was wrong with the Uchiha, we don't know if it's collaboration with Madara or something else, maybe they tried to prevent this, if they were already in contact with Madara by that time. Anyway, they had a secret connected to the events, or otherwise Kishimoto would not bother to give us such signs.

BTW i think that it would fit Danzou's character to give the order to kill the clan because he wanted to become hokage. I mean it is now clear that Itachi should have been the 5th hokage if everything went well, but we know how desperately Danzou wanted to become hokage. So in his place it's a logical decision to somehow get rid of Itachi in a way that he will never be considered to be hokage, and Itachi becoming a criminal was the perfect outcome for Danzou. Of course Danzou did know what man Itachi is, so he could be sure that Itachi would never turn against the village, he would rather die.

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Here is the assumption that Uchiha were not allies of Madara, or at least the secret organization of Uchiha led by Sasuke's father. However on the night of the kyuubi attack both father and mother are away. They had to do something so important that they left baby Sasuke to the care of the little child Itachi in the middle of the night. Also Kishimoto shows us Sasuke's mother meeting with Kushina, and thus she had information on Kushina. After she meets Kushina and the hokage's wife who are going outside the village she just disappears leaving Sasuke to his child's care in the middle of the night, what a coincidence that is.
So Kishimoto has placed clear signs that something was wrong with the Uchiha, we don't know if it's collaboration with Madara or something else, maybe they tried to prevent this, if they were already in contact with Madara by that time. Anyway, they had a secret connected to the events, or otherwise Kishimoto would not bother to give us such signs.

BTW i think that it would fit Danzou's character to give the order to kill the clan because he wanted to become hokage. I mean it is now clear that Itachi should have been the 5th hokage if everything went well, but we know how desperately Danzou wanted to become hokage. So in his place it's a logical decision to somehow get rid of Itachi in a way that he will never be considered to be hokage, and Itachi becoming a criminal was the perfect outcome for Danzou. Of course Danzou did know what man Itachi is, so he could be sure that Itachi would never turn against the village, he would rather die.

I also think Danzou must of had something to do with it. I wonder if he teamed up with Madara, but the real reason Madara send Sasuke after Danzou was because he didn't want Sasuke to discover the truth...

[Kotengu]

Heh, Long time no post. Guess I just didn't feel like posting on the random and gratuitous auto pilot plot progression.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I mean it is now clear that Itachi should have been the 5th hokage if everything went well, but we know how desperately Danzou wanted to become hokage. So in his place it's a logical decision to somehow get rid of Itachi in a way that he will never be considered to be hokage

I don't think anyone who killed for MS would be Hokage material. I mean that's pretty much why Danzo didn't cut it as Hokage, as I could totally see him killing for a power like MS. This is assuming that the method for getting MS is the one that Sasuke used, and not the one Kakashi somehow managed to imitate. And also assuming that Itachi killed his BFF.

To be honest, I would have loved for Itachi to be the Hokage, and his clan would have been WAY better served to seed him for the spot considering he was probably the strongest ninja from the village. In addition Sarutobi supposedly knew about Itachi (as well as Orochimaru and Danzo) but he also did nothing/allowed the 'effd up deal. Such a man would have been invaluable as the leader of the village. Unfortunately I don't think Kishi can manipulate plot at that level (no offense naruto is still mad fun to read).

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Here is the assumption that Uchiha were not allies of Madara, or at least the secret organization of Uchiha led by Sasuke's father. However on the night of the kyuubi attack both father and mother are away. They had to do something so important that they left baby Sasuke to the care of the little child Itachi in the middle of the night. Also Kishimoto shows us Sasuke's mother meeting with Kushina, and thus she had information on Kushina. After she meets Kushina and the hokage's wife who are going outside the village she just disappears leaving Sasuke to his child's care in the middle of the night, what a coincidence that is.

Would it be a coincidence that even the Uchiha would go and protect the village from the Kyuubi?