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Old 2008-01-13, 16:04   Link #401
Jerseykid
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I take a look at basically every new anime that comes out from all genres and the amount of shows with any incest at all is miniscule at best. In fact I think it is underused.
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Old 2008-01-13, 19:25   Link #402
Dop
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Originally Posted by babybro View Post
I am definitely glad that I am from the states, where I do not have to worry about coming across such things like lolicon and incest.

I'm going to quote from the original Welcome to the N.H.K novel, where Yamazaki says:-

"... Speaking of rock and roll, I really respect Jerry Lee Lewis."
"Who's that?"
"He's the lolicon rocker who, defying social convention, married his thirteen-year-old cousin, making him the so-called giant of the lolicon world. His way of life was truly anti-establishment. Great Balls of Fire!"

Which of course is all true. Jerry Lee Lewis did marry his thirteen year old cousin.
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Old 2008-01-13, 20:04   Link #403
PastPrime
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Originally Posted by Dop View Post
I'm going to quote from the original Welcome to the N.H.K novel, where Yamazaki says:-

"... Speaking of rock and roll, I really respect Jerry Lee Lewis."
"Who's that?"
"He's the lolicon rocker who, defying social convention, married his thirteen-year-old cousin, making him the so-called giant of the lolicon world. His way of life was truly anti-establishment. Great Balls of Fire!"

Which of course is all true. Jerry Lee Lewis did marry his thirteen year old cousin.
But only after he got her pregnant.
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Old 2008-01-13, 20:16   Link #404
babybro
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Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
Sure, America was founded on Puritanism and was almost a theocracy for a long time. But that's long since changed with the separation of church and state, which also prompted other laws, for example, the government cannot treat religious schools as educational/non-profit facilities and cannot give them the financial benefits.

You cannot "outlaw" homosexuality legally. You can forbid marriage, which is already the case in the US. But cops will not ever be able to pull 2 people off the streets because they are in a "taboo" relationship. If 2 people in an incestuous relationship do not pursue marriage or civil union, the government cannot do anything. The two types of couplings are almost in the same boat legally.



Sorry, but not all countries have high Christian populations. Incest is universally illegal, but NOT because the Bible says so. It wouldn't explain why say...India does not legalize incest. Nothing is ever black and white, can you give me a good reason why incest with contraception and without marriage should not be allowed, besides the Bible?



Do you think there are no yaoi fangirls/fujoushi in the states?

Your first statement is incorrect. Any type of incestral relationship between immediate relationships will caused you jail time. Here is an article from wikipedia.org.

Quote:
"Degrees of criminality
The laws of many U.S. states recognize two separate degrees of incest, the more serious being the closest blood relationships, such as father–daughter, mother–son, and brother–sister, with the less serious charge being pressed against more distantly related individuals who engage in sexual intercourse, usually to and including first cousins and sometimes half-cousins. In New York State, close-blood-relation incest is a felony with a maximum penalty of four years in prison, while the less serious charge is usually only a misdemeanor. Many incest laws do not expressly proscribe sexual conduct other than vaginal intercourse—such as oral sex—or any sexual activity between relatives of the same sex (though if either party is a minor, it may be punishable otherwise).

For many years, Andrew Vachss has written about the incest loophole in the laws of most U.S. states.

New York's law—much like that of most other states—allows the possibility of privileged treatment for a special class of offender: the perpetrator who is related to his prey. In other words, the penal code gives a discount to child rapists who grow their own victims. In New York, sex with a child under the age of 11 is a Class B felony, punishable by up to 25 years in prison. The law is indexed appropriately, in the chapter on sex offenses. If, however, the sexually abused child is closely related to the perpetrator, state law provides for radically more lenient treatment. In such cases, the prosecutor may choose to charge the same acts as incest. This is not listed as a sex offense, but instead as an "offense affecting the marital relationship," listed next to adultery in the law books. It is a Class E felony, for which even a convicted offender may be granted probation.

—Andrew Vachss, Op-Ed, The New York Times, 20 November 2005
The latter was repealed through legislative action in 2006; however, it remains in the law of many states."
You can find more information about incest at wikipedia.org. But as you can see, if the cops were given a warrant to investigate a household and locate an incest being commit, they would go to jail.


You misunderstood me in regards to the majority of countries prohibiting incest. The countries I was referring to were countries who are heavily into the bible and is a cause as to why incest is not allowed. As we all know, there are quite a few countries where incest is outlawed where christianity is a driving force within the country, but there are many other countries that also prohibits incest where other religion is at full effect. But I will be saving that for the next paragraph.

As for providing a good reason why incest she be outlawed, outside of religion, it becomes more of a personal opinion in my view. What might be excellent reasons for me would perhaps be horrible reasons for you, and vice versa. But one post that you brought up I would like to reinterate is that incest is banned in most countries of the industrialise world. As we all know, most countries have different religions, such as india, but also outlawed incest. Why do you think that is?


LOL, let me elaborate what I meant about no loli or incest in america. What yaoi does exist (homosexuality) on some television shows late at night. I won't ever have to worry about watching, say, an american television show like OC, (which i'm watching now), and see Ryan the main character get sexually attracted to his girlfriends younger sister. Or I won't have to worry about Ryan's girlfriend getting sexually attracted to her younger sister. Things of that nature, you won't find in the states, and I'm very glad about that.
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Old 2008-01-13, 20:30   Link #405
tripperazn
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Originally Posted by babybro View Post
if the cops were given a warrant to investigate a household and locate an incest being commit, they would go to jail.
That is a huge, huge IF right there. The second part of the law makes it clear that the intention is to penalize sexual abuse in these special cases. Like I said, if an incestuous couple is walking down the street, no one can touch them.

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Originally Posted by babybro View Post
As for providing a good reason why incest she be outlawed, outside of religion, it becomes more of a personal opinion in my view. What might be excellent reasons for me would perhaps be horrible reasons for you, and vice versa. But one post that you brought up I would like to reinterate is that incest is banned in most countries of the industrialise world. As we all know, most countries have different religions, such as india, but also outlawed incest. Why do you think that is?
So basically, you're saying that it is your personal moral choice. Why not give other people the same choice instead of making it for them?
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Old 2008-01-13, 20:39   Link #406
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Originally Posted by babybro View Post
But this isn't the case here. I am assuming that some who find incest in fantasy to be alright, to have the same belief in real life.
Why would they think that? That would be like saying "If lolicon fans like pictures of fictional underage girls, I'm sure they are also cool with real children being sexually exploited and abused and left with scars".

The main reason why incest is so taboo is because it could lead to health/genetic-related problems in the future (generations later). Other than that, I cannot think of any other reason that would be considered valid for it being illegal, since we cannot outlaw something under the notion of that it is "really gross eeewwwwwww he's doing THAT with his mom".
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Old 2008-01-13, 20:47   Link #407
babybro
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Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
That is a huge, huge IF right there. The second part of the law makes it clear that the intention is to penalize sexual abuse in these special cases. Like I said, if an incestuous couple is walking down the street, no one can touch them.



So basically, you're saying that it is your personal moral choice. Why not give other people the same choice instead of making it for them?

Well of course, for one incest by law is stated as any type of sexual activity between close relatives. If they are walking down the street, no one would actually know that these siblings are actually an incestral or not. So of course the government wouldn't be able to do anything because it has to be some sort of sexual activity. Now of course, if the same couple attempted to announce they were incestral, than the government could investigate them and if evidence found, well jail time.

Lol, you talking to me like i'm the governor of california or something LMAO! I don't have any control over the laws.
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Old 2008-01-13, 20:53   Link #408
babybro
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Originally Posted by Razer_2mb View Post
Why would they think that? That would be like saying "If lolicon fans like pictures of fictional underage girls, I'm sure they are also cool with real children being sexually exploited and abused and left with scars".

The main reason why incest is so taboo is because it could lead to health/genetic-related problems in the future (generations later). Other than that, I cannot think of any other reason that would be considered valid for it being illegal, since we cannot outlaw something under the notion of that it is "really gross eeewwwwwww he's doing THAT with his mom".

LOL, I mention some,not all, on that some would believe it's okay in real life.
What you are mentioning is two huge extremes though. A more correct example would be, if some lolicon fans like pictures of fictional underage girls, I'm sure they would also have pictures of real children in bathing suits. Unless of course some lolicon fans have pictures of fictional girls in sexually abused photo's than your real children example would apply.
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Old 2008-01-13, 21:02   Link #409
OutPhase
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Originally Posted by babybro View Post
sexually abused photo's

???: "*sniffle* The bad man touched me in my... my.. *deep breathing through gasps of tears*"

Man: "Could you point where, using this 4 by 4 as an example?"

???: *points in the middle area*

Man: "Oh my God.

I will have the sick bastard rot in sing-sing for what he did to the image. You're supposed to hold it by the edges. THE EDGES! You can see the thumb-print on the photo, for pete-sakes."

Kidding aside, I would like you to brush up your post and make it more clear to me on what you intended to say.
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Old 2008-01-13, 22:03   Link #410
tripperazn
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Originally Posted by babybro View Post
Lol, you talking to me like i'm the governor of california or something LMAO! I don't have any control over the laws.
No, you wouldn't give me a straight answer, so I just assumed that you meant you dislike incest for personal moral reasons and nothing else. Am I wrong in that assumption?
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Old 2008-01-13, 22:43   Link #411
babybro
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Originally Posted by Razer_2mb View Post
???: "*sniffle* The bad man touched me in my... my.. *deep breathing through gasps of tears*"

Man: "Could you point where, using this 4 by 4 as an example?"

???: *points in the middle area*

Man: "Oh my God.

I will have the sick bastard rot in sing-sing for what he did to the image. You're supposed to hold it by the edges. THE EDGES! You can see the thumb-print on the photo, for pete-sakes."

Kidding aside, I would like you to brush up your post and make it more clear to me on what you intended to say.

A bit confused as to what you mean by make it clearer. You sounded like I was saying all lolicons like both fantasy and real life underage girls. So I was clarifying that I do not believe all of them like "both" fantasy and real life, just some of them do.

As well, the example you provided was a bit extreme. The reason why is that
you stated the fantasy side just have pictures of fantasy underage girls, while the real life side has pictures of real life girls in sexually exposed and abuse images. I was saying that the real life side is rather extreme in comparison to it's fantasy counterpart, and a better comparison would if they had images of both fantasy and real life photo's of girls in just poses.

That's an interesting script by the way, is that from a webcomic? LOL! Or did you just make that one up?
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Old 2008-01-13, 23:01   Link #412
babybro
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Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
No, you wouldn't give me a straight answer, so I just assumed that you meant you dislike incest for personal moral reasons and nothing else. Am I wrong in that assumption?
Indeed that is correct my friend. I dislike incest for personal reasons. I am just fornately that most of the world including the US also believe in the same beliefs.
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Old 2008-01-14, 00:32   Link #413
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Now that hasn't stopped theocrats and extremists from TRYING to inject their own form of religion into the law... but there's a reason there are hundreds of forms of Christianity. No one can agree on one set of doctrines and this extends all the way down to the individual (at least the ones who can think a bit instead of just nodding when the preacher says you'll go to hell if you don't wear this kind of dress).
Totally off topic, but this is pretty much why I avoid religion in any form, faith can have any sort of effect on the lives of the practitioners they like, but certainly it better not affect mine.

The fact that followers of the same faith can't agree on religious interpretations makes it inherently flawed in my view (religion, not faith)


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Originally Posted by babybro View Post
What you are mentioning is two huge extremes though. A more correct example would be, if some lolicon fans like pictures of fictional underage girls, I'm sure they would also have pictures of real children in bathing suits.
One I like and have in my household, one I do not and am not interested in at all. Sure, some people might, just like they might be having incestuous relationships, but that's their house, not mine. Just like the old saying, 'Out of sight, Out of mind'

I have a lot more things to be getting on with in my life than thinking about other people's incest, though since I've taken the time out right now, I can't really see any type of mutual loving relationship of any kind (yes, I said any kind, feel free to extrapolate that as far as you wish) bothering me in the slightest.
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Old 2011-01-01, 02:41   Link #414
InitialGT
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why are so many animes fascinated with incest?

there's a lot of animes out there that seem to promote incest. I think this is more nasty than a gay anime. It just seems so wrong. I think it might be because of the Japanese population not knowing what it's like having an opposite sex sibling because of their decreasing population growth that may spark interest in incest. What do you guys think?
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Old 2011-01-01, 02:47   Link #415
Ichihara Asako
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While single children having fantasies about having a sibling may play a part, I think it's jut natural regardless of number of siblings. I forget the figures now but studies have shown siblings (within a certain age range, I think 2-3 years) have a surprisingly high frequency (I think it was in the 30% realm) of incestuous activity, even if it's just brief pubescent curiosity.

Outside of siblings, well... complexes and abuse are common. It's not a Japanese thing at all.

Why anime does it, well. Why not. It's a subject matter that enough people are interested in (at least for comedic values ala OreImo) to be profitable.
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Old 2011-01-01, 02:55   Link #416
Tempester
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Yep, most incest fans don't have siblings. It is the appeal of having an attractive person living with you who (usually) respects you and shares common traits with you. Being always in such close proximity, they are more... *ahem*... readily available. Those without siblings would imagine the situation to be like this, and it appeals to them. They don't understand what the Westermarck effect feels like because they've never experienced it except with their parents. However, some people who do have siblings are into fictional incest because they deliberately choose to see the fictional incest situation in the same way as the person without siblings. Deep in their mind they don't really register the protagonist's sibling as their sibling they grew up with but as a really attractive person who lives in the same household.
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Old 2011-01-01, 03:54   Link #417
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1) It sells
2) It is the current trend like mecha were in the 80s or moe some years ago
3) The imouto fetish combines loli and incest, two in one taboos, which means double the fun
4) Anime are not completely political correct and we love them just for that
5) It's not like they promote JUST that
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Old 2011-01-01, 04:07   Link #418
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I'm mostly repeating... but many topics of "forbidden love" are juicy material in any culture.Some anime also explores inter-racial love (or inter-species if you want to include aliens and half-spirits and wolf deities) often in disguised mode. Sometimes the writers are making specific statements poking at Japanese insularity/homogeneity. If one read books they might discover that Western fiction explores all of these topics and many more.

And that's quite a nosedive the OP took there in comparing incest with 'gay love' - good luck with that :P
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Old 2011-01-01, 05:11   Link #419
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I remember many years ago, when they labeled the original Macross as the most revolutionary anime in relationships. It had couples between humans and aliens as well as an african woman in relationship with a white man. But since the current core buyers are to a great deal hikikomoris and NEETs, aliens and blacks don't attract as much as little human sisters who are willing to spend their lives in a tiny apartment with you XD

Space? No sir, that means going outside and spending money to travel the cosmos. And fembots also need maintenence. Let's just settle for an Earthling loli. Makes sense with the current economical crisis.
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Old 2011-01-01, 07:21   Link #420
Taufiq91
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
I remember many years ago, when they labeled the original Macross as the most revolutionary anime in relationships. It had couples between humans and aliens as well as an african woman in relationship with a white man. But since the current core buyers are to a great deal hikikomoris and NEETs, aliens and blacks don't attract as much as little human sisters who are willing to spend their lives in a tiny apartment with you XD

Space? No sir, that means going outside and spending money to travel the cosmos. And fembots also need maintenence. Let's just settle for an Earthling loli. Makes sense with the current economical crisis.
Your argument can be quite flawed. For one, most NEETs and hikikomoris are also into space/cosmos stuff like Gundam too. Just because they're NEETS and hikikomoris doesn't mean they are all about moe and cutey girls shit. Some NEETs and hikis are not even otakus. they are just hikis becaus of the shame culture BS that is keeping most Japanese people from gaining a sense of social responsibility and freedom.

You must remember, Japan is currently suffering from a youth crisis. Japanese youths were taught to be workers, not leaders. They are not taught critical thinking skills that could help them cope with social issues at school, and mental health is a taboo in Japan as well. instead of consulting a shrink, they would rather lock themselves in their house. That is pretty sad.

In the case of incest, that is basically another case of mental health as a Japanese taboo. In the West, When you have really "wrong" feelings for your sister, you will consult a psychiatrist. In Japan, they don't do that. Instead, they make animes about it. Some can be a Japanese equivalent to psychiatry consultation (Ore no Imouto), whereas others are pure schlock.

and to solve the hikikomori issue, All you need to do is to wait for the likes of Ishihara to die off within another 20 years. By then, Japanese society will start to socially crumble and the government will have to change society to make the hikis come out of their house and help continue keeping Japan alive. The future of Japan is currently locking himself/herself in the house, while the old ones are destroying the country.
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