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Old 2015-04-12, 19:27   Link #3201
skaianDestiny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Where are these from?
Those are scans of the fact sheets in the 1/1000 model instruction booklets. Got them here.

Yamato
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10185348
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10185348k2/50/2

Polmeria
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10217261
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10217261k2/50/2
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Old 2015-04-13, 04:55   Link #3202
Ithekro
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Oh right.
(Using Google and the Japanese wiki, so the translation will not be exactly are stated in the images.)

Polmeria carrier
Large Caliber laser cannon x 1
Triple missile turret x 1 group (triple revolving-type anti-aircraft laser turret x 1 group, on Imperial Guard units at Gamilas)

Yamato
200 centimeter Dimentional Wave Radiation Machine (Wave Motion Gun)

Triple 48 centimeter positron impact turret x 3 (shock cannons) - first and second turret can fire shells
Triple 20 centimeter positron impact turret x 2 (shock cannons) - first turret can fire shells.
12 torpedo tubes (fore and aft)
16 torpedo tubes (mounted on sides)
8 missile launcher in tower (chimney)
8 missile launcher tubes (underside) (it looks like there might be two more tubes behind the "third bridge")
94 "sets of" depth charge projector (base of mast) - translation is fuzzy
Quad 127 millimeter high angle rapid fire beam turrets x 8
Triple 88 millimeter high angle rapid fire beam turrets x 4
Twin 127 millimeter high angle rapid fire beam turrets x 8
Twin 75 millimeter high angle rapid fire beam turrets x 10
Triple 75 millimeter high angle rapid fire beam turrets x 4
Bridge proximity defense firearms x 2 (I'm not sure what this is exactly)
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Old 2015-04-13, 15:37   Link #3203
skaianDestiny
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Thank you.
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Old 2015-04-13, 15:49   Link #3204
Ithekro
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I'm not sure if the diameter of the wave motion gun is correct. The translation is correct (I check multiple places to be sure it said centimeter), but the opening, even at the back looks bigger than two meters wide. I suppose the opening in the large cylinder that acts at the firing pin could be two meters wide and need a lot of metal around it to contain the energy.
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Old 2015-04-13, 18:43   Link #3205
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Eyeballing the Deusura II, what do you think the diameter of its WMG is?
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Old 2015-04-14, 01:11   Link #3206
Ithekro
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Eyeballing it on the Megahouse version of it the full opening on that ship is just over 15 meters wide. The central part I would guess is 8 meters wide, Maybe at wide as 10 meters.

That ship is suppose to be 634 meters long.

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
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Old 2015-04-14, 19:37   Link #3207
skaianDestiny
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Okay, I'm probably putting too much thought into stuff the mechanics that the show glosses over, but here are my random thoughts on weaponry and other misc SBY 2199 stuff.

===

The mainstay of basically every faction seen so far is positron weaponry. The only exception was early UN Cosmo Fleet ships, who used "amplified light" beams instead. If two or more positron beams are fired together, they are capable of combining into a single, more powerful beam. This is most often seen on the Yamato, but Gamilon guns are shown to be able to do this too. This can be easily seen when the Zoelguut-class fires even if they don't show the beams combining as they do with the Yamato. There also seems to be a distinction between positron beams (Gamilon turrets without barrels) and positron cannons (Gamilon turrets with barrels). Right now there's no information about the difference between them (an interview suggested that it's different manufacturers building things differently), however note that the Haizerad-class, which is a modernized version of the Gaiderol, Meltoria-class, which shares similar design features with the Haizerad, Gelvades-class, which is told to be a newer ship class, and the Deusura II all make use of positron cannons. This suggests that positron cannons have some sort of advantage over positron beams for them to be used on the newer ships. Personally I'd go with either longer range or each shot is more powerful.

The Gatlantis have their own unique take with their rapid-fire roundels. For the purpose of argument we'll assume they use positron weaponry as well. This set-up provides unique advantages and tradeoffs compared to the more conventional turrets. For one, each roundel is capable of outputting a greater volume of firepower than a regular turret in the same time period. The roundels also don't need to turn as much as a regular turret to face targets as the guns are facing in the eight major directions. However this setup means that roundels are unable to combine beams, meaning each individual shot is less powerful.

This segues into my thoughts on the 3 factions' combat doctrine. Earth ships typically have turrets that each can cover a wide arc. This fits with how Earth is a smaller faction than the others and focuses on having each ship be able to engage multiple targets. This is supplemented by a powerful bow cannon (from positron shock cannons for UN Cosmo Fleet ships to the Wave Motion Guns on EDF ships). For the Gamilon ships, they typically have most of their heavier firepower concentrated forward. With their large fleet, this suggests each individual ship focuses on one target. In addition, virtually every single warship save carriers in the Gamilon fleet, even the Delamaya-class amphibious assault ship, have torpedo tubes. Their second-class ships all have at least 4 torpedo tubes, while their 2 primary battleship class a total of 33 torpedo tubes. It's a shame we don't see them used very often, as the amount of torpedoes a battlegroup could put out would be very impressive. If we take Domel's strategy in episode 11 as more or less standard doctrine, Gamilons would use torpedoes to soften up targets and finish them off with massed fire. As for the Gatlanteans, I'd need to really see them in action to better understand them, but I'd assume they'd close in and use their massive volume of fire to overwhelm the enemy.

Looking at the warp exits, they really showcase each faction's "personality". The Yamato's warp is exotic and slightly crude, befitting such a unique and experimental ship. The Gamilon warp jump is simple, "clean", and efficient, befitting an empire based on WWII German aesthetics. On the other hand, Gatlantean warp jumps are messy and wasteful, requiring the ship to fire its maneuvering thrusters to right itself. It fits the "barbaric" empire who steals technology from other races.

---

Thinking back to the Meltoria and Haizerad, I've also been pondering about the evolution of Gamilon ship design. The Gaiderol-class is an older design and seems to be in the process of being phased out. They're given to people of either low rank (Shulz) or on much more distant and "unimportant" positions (Goer). Its design seems archaic too, with multitudes of those pointy antenna-fin-things. The bow is also much more different than other Gamilon ships, ending with an opening instead of a closed nose like most others. Its "eye" is located on the upper portion of the hull, which isn't replicated anywhere else other than the Zoelguut. We can therefore place the Gaiderol as one of the older ship classes in the Gamilon repertoire. Next up is the classic Kripitera-class destroyer, Kelkapia-class high speed cruiser, and Destroia-class heavy cruiser. All of these ships share similar designs, meaning they were created in roughly the same period and after the Gaiderol. Next we have the Meltoria and Haizerad. As I said above, they share similar design: positron cannons, the design of the 4 big fins at the stern, and the shape and location of the "eyes", which are near the center-line and middle of the ship, and their more "streamlined" appearance. This puts them newer than the 2 cruisers and destroyer classes. Finally we have the Deusura II which is the newest ship designed. Here is where it becomes slightly tricky.

The Polmeria is stated to be design from a conquered race, hence the drastically different design (one fanfic has it being from the Zalts). The Zoelguut's location on the "ship timeline" is uncertain, though considering the similarity in location for the "eye" to the Gaiderol I'm inclined to think sometime around or after then. The triple-deck carriers don't have an obvious time either. The Gelvades-class is newer, and the presence of positron cannons perhaps marks it after the classic cruisers and destroyer.

===

Welp that was long, I'll leave some questions before I'm done.

How many planes can the Gamilon carriers carry? Doing a count of the number of planes that exit each arm of the Polmeria, it comes out to 5 per arm meaning one Polmeria holds 20 Melancas. How about the Gelvades or the Meltoria, which if you remember holds a hanger in the back (it's right under the rear turret). The only way I'd see it having a meaningful fighter complement is if it has a revolver system like the Yamato. Personally I think it could hold 4 Czvarkes.

What's the purpose of the smokestack-looking things on the Destroia and Meltoria? I recall something about them being missile launchers but I might be mistaken.

Do you think the Gamilas Empire will build more Zoelguut dreadnoughts or would they work on the new WMG-equipped dreadnought based on the Deusura II?

I'd like to see some Iscandarian ships from when they were militaristic. What do you think they looked like?

What was your most favorite ship design in SBY 2199?

I think that's it, thanks for reading this massive blurb.

Last edited by skaianDestiny; 2015-04-14 at 21:43.
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Old 2015-04-14, 22:17   Link #3208
Ithekro
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The Zoelguut has to be at least relatively new since the design was based on Zoellick's ideas of warfare (frontal assault), reflected by its extremely heavy armored bow and heavy forward firepower. Not just the three large quad turrets (49cm) in top, but also the one on the bottom and the 27 missile tubes facing forwards (3 on each side, 6 on the bridge, and 15 on the underside.) as well as 7 more tubes aft with the three main turrets and four secondary turrets (the size of the older battleship and heavy cruiser's guns...330mm).

The carriers are harder to figure out. While the Polmeria is likely an alien design, they have them all over the Empire. It might be the secondary role carrier though as we see them with the Pluto Base and Balun Base fleets as well as a large number with the Imperial Guard Fleet. The Guipellon (tri-deck) doesn't have the Gamilas "eyes" either. They are seen in about as large a numbers as the Pomeria at the naval review at Balun. All of those were painted green and has angled flight decks. The three at the Rainbow Cluster battles suggest that they have been around for a while. The blue one seemed like one of the oldest left in service, probably part of the Imperial Guard. It has no angled flight deck. The purple one probably was part of the Propaganda Ministry's forces, but was otherwise a standard carrier. The green one might have been a new ship with the oddly pointed decks (stealth style). No reason why it has that.

The Gelvades is quite obviously the newest of the carrier as we see so few of them and they seem to be fitted with better armaments than most of the other warships. Its stated purpose is deep space missions. Either deep behind enemy lines, or exploration work...depending on how you read it. It is also the one carrier that is clearly of Gamilas design.

The Polmeria have at least 20 fighters, perhaps more. Plus recon craft.

The Guipellon appears to be able to carry about 60 regular sized craft or less of a larger design such as the torpedo bombers.

The Gelvades is the question. How much of it is hanger space? The hanger can be protected by armored doors, which is impressive. I am somewhat at odds with why the one at the Rainbow Galaxy does not seem to have any other craft other than the bomber. Or perhaps it was does not decided to launch any craft when they charged Yamato as a battle line. It might have only had interceptors that didn't have very useful anti-ship weapons. The two in the recent film are shown launching Czvarkes only. I would guess maybe 36 at this time, though if they have an efficient system they could cram 60 in there like Yamato has 36 Cosmo Falcons in much less space.

The Meltoria I would guess had six fighters, but that's just me using gaming logic for a definite hanger, rather than a shuttle bay/auxiliary hanger like Yamato and Kirishima have on the sides.

Cometine ships seems to charge in using rapid fire weaponry and quantum torpedes (they looks like later Star Trek series photon torpedoes). Each ship seem to have two torpedo launcher. The Medaruusa class had two forward and two aft while all the others have just two forward. The Cometine battleship, carrier, and cruiser also are suppose to have missile tubes, but none are seen used to my knowledge. Their destroyers appear to not have missiles, just the two torpedo tubes. The quantum torpedoes seem to hit rather hard. Harder than single missiles from Yamato at least.

Cometine weapons fire seems to be fairly inaccurate. Even Gamilas weapons hit more often. Nor do Cometine weapons seem to have as much of an impact as Gamilas and Earth weapons. I've half tempted to consider them more similar to the older Earth weaponry, just more adapted to fighting Gamilas ships than the Earther were. Also the green beams are similar. The Medaruus classed main battery seems about as powerful as an Earth shock cannon when seen hitting a Gamilas destroyer. This is from a single barrel of the five in the giant turret. Cometine beams do not combine like shock cannon or larger Gamilas positron weapons. Even when fired together the Cometine beams remain apart. There advantage appears to be rapid number of shots for the smaller guns, and brute force for the large turret. The rapid fire nature seems to be able to defeat the smaller Gamilas ships while it takes a while to take out a larger ship like a Gelvades battlecarrier. They seem to have even less luck penetrating Yamato's shields than the Gamilas who would eventually get some penetration on that shield even if it held for more shots.

As for Gamilas WMG ships. That depends entirely on what happens following the events of episode 25. What report will they get about the Cometine Magnaflame Gun? Will that change the government's mind in keeping a promise to Queen Starsha? With Starsha allow Gamilas to build such weapons? Can she even influence them enough to stop them? And what of Dessler? He would build more, but would be doing it as a new fleet wide weapon, or something reserved for himself? Flagships? One per fleet? Would he feel only he has the right to use it as a gesture to Starsha? Would he come up with something less world ending but powerful...or go straight to planet killing missiles? More Zoelguut-class ships would be expensive, and they proved to be only barely a match for Yamato without a wave motion gun. The Deusura II is still largely untested in combat as far as we know. They may built a new one, but I think, if we see Dessler's core ship again, he'll get a smaller ship to wrap around in next time...something familiar.
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Old 2015-04-14, 22:18   Link #3209
skaianDestiny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Bridge proximity defense firearms x 2 (I'm not sure what this is exactly)
Found what they might be.



Those little things under the bridge.
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Old 2015-04-15, 00:24   Link #3210
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Wow.. A lot of anti-aircraft guns. It would a big firework, or the curtain of bullets.
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Old 2015-04-15, 01:39   Link #3211
Ithekro
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Don't think we ever saw those little things used, so I have no idea what they are really. Last line of defense against a missile aimed at the bridges I guess. Or maybe anti-personal guns if there are intruders on the deck?

And yes that is a LOT of AA guns. More accurately, that is a lot of large AA guns. US battleship had a lot more guns than this, but there were mostly smaller guns. 40mm and 20mm with five twin 5 inch turrets on each side (every effective dual purpose guns those 5"/38 cal). According to the translation, space battleship Yamato has 48 five inch guns (127mm) around it, plus 12 three and a half inch guns (88mm) and 32 three inch guns (75mm) for Anti-air defenses. Most of the big stuff is in the seven clustered turrets on the side with one quad just above them.

Yamato's main and secondary guns can also be used again aircraft. The forward guns with Type 3 shell can put out a large area of shrapnel against both enemy missile and fighters, though it is only really effective at range for that. Otherwise it makes for an effective anti-ship shell as it blows up inside the enemy vessel. The 20cm (8 inch) and 48cm (19 inch) are larger than the historical ship's guns for sure, but than the Yamato in 2199 is not meant to be the old battleship...just look like it.

The historical Yamato's AA guns were bad. Very bad. The 13mm and 25mm guns were basically horrible for what they were suppose to do. At least by 1944. The few 127mm AA guns installed after they removed the flanking 155mm triple turrets were better, but just not enough.
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Old 2015-04-15, 23:05   Link #3212
skaianDestiny
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How long ago was Zaltz assimilated into the Gamilon Empire? Shulz seems to be in his midlife and he's supportive of being under the Gamilon rule.

Also what would the core values (like the US has freedom, liberty, justice, etc) of the Gamilon Empire be? One of them has to be honor.

Last edited by skaianDestiny; 2015-04-15 at 23:33.
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Old 2015-04-16, 01:33   Link #3213
Ithekro
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Not sure when Zaltz was taken by Gamilas. I had assumed withing Shultz and Ganz lifetime, but then they might be thinking back to their history. The manga seem to suggest that Gamilas had control when Shultz was a child as they had mining operations outside a forest he use to play back then (with drill missiles used for mining).

Core values? Aside from serving Dessler and worship of Iscandar? Loyalty seems to be a thing. Honor as well. That is a tough question when we only have so much of their civilization shown to us.
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Old 2015-04-16, 08:12   Link #3214
skaianDestiny
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Does roughly 80-100 years ago seem plausible to you?
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Old 2015-04-16, 17:10   Link #3215
Ithekro
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Possible, as that would be within the reign of Dessler (103 years as of 2199, though I'm not sure if that is the same Dessler of it it was his uncle). I don't know what Gamilas was doing prior Dessler being leader. The Gamilas have been around for a 1000 years or so but I don't know what position they had in the comsos.
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Old 2015-04-18, 15:02   Link #3216
skaianDestiny
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How are the Gamilon torpedo boats stored/carried around? They're too small for a warp drive. Do they land on the multi-deck carriers or do they have a specific ship they latch on to? They'd get carried along through warp jumps if they're attached to another ship right?

Last edited by skaianDestiny; 2015-04-18 at 16:54.
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Old 2015-04-18, 18:45   Link #3217
Ithekro
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I still wonder how that one ended up between Gamilas and Balun when Yamato found it. It came from Gamilas. Not sure where she was going.
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Old 2015-04-18, 22:10   Link #3218
Danshenmue
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Originally Posted by skaianDestiny View Post
Does roughly 80-100 years ago seem plausible to you?
I think you are pretty correct about that man
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Old 2015-04-21, 15:29   Link #3219
skaianDestiny
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Found a site that has scanned the Gamillas artbook, good stuff in there. Gotta get a physical copy sometime.

Could someone translate the text for this page about the Alterians?


Last edited by skaianDestiny; 2015-04-21 at 16:09.
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Old 2015-04-23, 11:55   Link #3220
Ithekro
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Looks somewhat familiar to some Earth cultures. Don't know what it says. (Aside from probably "Gamilas Go Home!")
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